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jegol71
USA
78 Posts |
 Posted - 06/04/2013 : 16:37:13
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| Soulitis? |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2013 : 17:07:07
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| I thought conversion disorder at least as classically understood manifested in neurological symptoms other than pain. |
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gigalos
Netherlands
310 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2013 : 12:01:52
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now I have read its definition better, you're right.
The cause however is the same and I wonder if TMS and conversion disorder aren't different manifestations of the same; mindbody syndrome.
If I take my pains, it fits TMS
If I take my disbalance, it fits conversion disorder
well, that's my two cents. It doesn't matter to me what it is, I know it originates from my mind. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2013 : 12:07:25
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| I am not sure there is really much difference other than their particular manifestation among TMS, conversion disorder, the functional somatic syndromes as described by among others Dr. Arthur Barsky, Briquet's syndrome from the 19th century, etc. At root, they all seem to be physical expressions/manifestations of psychological issues. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2013 : 07:12:16
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I have often wondered about the "religious" nature of people here and on other illness related sites. I just posted a comment, yet again, on changes to the mainstream US psychological diagnoses for conversion disorder (now Functional Neurological Symptom Disorder), illness anxiety disorder etc, but I know from past experience that few here are interested in the mainstream psychological research that was doing TMS type research years before Sarno.
Initially I figured this preference for Sarno and other pop psychologists (he's not even in the field, and not familiar with most of the modern literature) was some sort of anti-intellectualism, or simply people who weren't familiar enough with academia to know how to access the research. Watching this forum off and on for several years I've come to a different conclusion. I think that, much like you describe, it is a religion for many, and it serves the same purpose as other religions. It provides a false sense that the "members" have secret knowledge others don't have (see above) as well as a community that many here lack. It makes people feel special when in fact they just have a common physical or mental illness.
I put out the fact that both the ICD and DSM cover these disorders, but I know that for many Sarno and the other TMS authors are religion...mentioning alternate sources that might supersede Sarno is like telling a Christian that their new great idea was in the Vedas many years earlier.
Maybe some people need this religion, but from the amount of time long-timers spend on this board my guess is that it's doing more harm than good. Sarno isn't new or special and people are much more widely varied than most here assume. Many here have nothing that resembles "TMS" and many others are here to avoid the reality that they have a real illness or disability they can't face.
Finding this board helped me several years ago, but being able to break from it was one of the best things I ever did.
Alexis |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2013 : 07:37:38
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"Many here have nothing that resembles "TMS""
This is an interesting and provocative thought, could you elaborate? |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2013 : 09:15:12
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Alexis,
Your story is common. (Finding help here, but not buying the religious aspect... and finding that getting away helped you greatly.) I've similarly found that actually stopping "TMS therapy" and moving on with my life has helped me gain traction and am closer to normalcy, as well. The success forum here is filled with stories of people who used a variety of methods to get better. I do still stop here occasionally because I love reading Balto, Art, Ace and a few others who really offer great anti-anxiety advice/therories. I personally think an occasional grounding is helpful for those still dealing with nervous disorder ("TMS," etc.) and as long as you pick your spots, reading an occasional post or two here is a helpful. But yes, the #1 goal for people on this forum should be to get off. Not to stay in the cult forever, talking about inner children, trying to help push books or dreaming up wild, impossible-to-prove scenarios about what their subconscious is up to.
To me, the best thing Sarno did was bring yet another example of what stress illness can do to the mainstream in a different way. He expanded and tweaked the theories of the greats that came before him. This forum is concrete proof that anxiety can manifest in a huge variety of ways, many which would have previously been thought to be physical in nature by most people. For that, I'm grateful to Sarno... among many others. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2013 : 09:16:32
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It's no secret modern psychology started with Freud, and prior to him ancient psychology goes back to discussions between Adam, Eve, G-D and the snake. If one READS Dr. Sarno's books, they will find that he has a through knowledge of the history of psychology, and works closely with experts in that field. In Yogic terms he has BRIDGED or yoked modern medicine and psychology.
The Good Doctor has explained the psychosomatic causes of "modern" pain epidemics. He has made a major medical contribution to medicine and the lay person's understanding of psychosomatic medicine through his four books on the topic, and inspired and trained numerous other doctors. Reading his books has "healed" numerous TMS sufferer's who've gone on to write their own books, giving much needed hope, and helping inspire others like Steve Ozanich and Nicole Sachs.
Not everyone here is looking for "help". It's a message board and much TMS news arrives here first or is disseminated from here. Many experts and authors come here to announce TMS breakthroughs and books first and continue to present here regularly. Dave the moderator here has done a great public service and mitzvah by keeping the board alive.
I find some come here to practice the psychological concept of "PROJECTION", others like me, may just be interested in the topic, like some people are interested in baseball. Some suffer from TMS/RCD (READING COMPREHENSION DISORDER)--they see what they want to see--the gremlin is sly--I see it a lot of this in tennis too on the line calls. It's also a good way to practice keyboarding, new vocabulary words and spelling. For some others it could also be a dating service--whatever--Dr. Sarno for President and the Noble Prize! Keep Dr. Sarno in your med cabinet alongside the Vicodine, Valiums and Percosets.
Cheers,
Dr. Sarno Zombie Cult Member #2,
tt/lsmft |
Edited by - tennis tom on 06/11/2013 09:35:26 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2013 : 12:43:58
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
"Many here have nothing that resembles "TMS""
This is an interesting and provocative thought, could you elaborate?
pspa123, Sarno talking about conversion and somatization disorders (now somatic symptom disorders) in the classic psychoanalytic sense (a minority perspective among today's researchers).
Many here really have,even by their own description, anxiety disorders or depression or simpler health anxiety issues. Often, too, they have real physical illnesses about which they are in denial. And those with somatic disorders likely have causal mechanisms at play that are better described in other literature...certainly many here feel that they don't fit the Freudian/TMS mold.
I find the people with real physical disorders the most troubling, usually athletes or people who want to deny the normal aging process. Yet site etiquette dictates that for the welfare of those with psychogenic disorders we not fixate on that issue. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2013 : 13:47:10
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| Ah ok. My confusion I guess was that TMS is often used here as a shorthand for pain with psychogenic origin, not in the strict Sarno sense of pain as a protective mechanism against unconscious rage or whatever, so I think my view is similar to yours in this respect. I also am of the opinion that many folks here tend to underestimate/downplay the extent of "real" physical problems or at least problems with a real physical component. I strongly disagree, for example, with the view that everything that isn't directly attributable to trauma or infection is TMS or a TMS equivalent. Just my opinion as a layperson of course, not looking to provoke a battle with the faithful. |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2013 : 14:19:13
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quote:
Originally posted by alexis
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
"Many here have nothing that resembles "TMS""
This is an interesting and provocative thought, could you elaborate?
Many here really have,even by their own description, anxiety disorders or depression or simpler health anxiety issues.
No need to separate TMS and anxiety. Treatment is the same, and the causal factors are almost universally the same. Many here accept "TMS" as nothing more than another moniker for anxiety.
And I'll wait here for your medical proof that many here "suffer from physical issues."
I'm assuming you've spoken with their doctors, or have testimony to this end?
Because aside from one or two isolated event, there have been thousands through this forum who have not stated their problem as physical. I'm wondering (again) where you feel you have the information to make such a statement? Not your opinion, but where is your proof to make that statement? |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 13:58:15
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I took away from Sarno and his books that a spine with "gray hairs" is not debilitating. No other anxiety/stress book covered that. When you are staring at an MRI that has a nice bulge in it, it is scary. It cripples. Typical anxiety and CBT books and teaching do not deal with this.
I took away from Sarno also that you had to overcome the fear of benign pain. How that process worked was not elaborated, so it took further investigation. This was essential knowledge for me. I did not care about lack of oxygen to muscles, deep emotional trauma or if the pain was distraction. It all pointed to stress read between the lines of HBP and MBP.
I viewed Sarno's work as very basic behavior modification of sorts, with a heavy dose on explaining back issues and back problems, which are the number one chronic pain thing going in the Western world.
Recognizing the fear of the fear was the most important thin in finally returning my body body to homeostasis.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 17:13:19
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In response to the question about a paucity of evidence for "physical" TMS symptoms and the assertion that almost all TMS exhibits as anxiety alone, I did a brief un-scientific, survey of the first ten threads here and found mention of the following symptoms:
RSI
BACK (4)
SHOULDER
EYES
HANDS (2)
FOREARMS-RSI
THROAT
SCIATICA
HERNIATED/RUPTURED DISC
INSOMNIA
ILLNESS
PAIN
MID-BACK
CHEST COLD
ALLERGIES
ASTHMA
GERD
LOWER BACK
GROIN
KNEE
TINNITUS
NECK
HIP
You'll can decide if they are physical manifestations of the underlying TMS tension.
Cheers,
tt/lsmft
P.S., I hope Shawn doesn't get too upset with me mentioning symptoms, the underlying emotional situations are listed in the Rahe-Holmes list below.
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8D7w0IUIPU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
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Edited by - tennis tom on 06/13/2013 13:48:19 |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 14:08:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
I took away from Sarno and his books that a spine with "gray hairs" is not debilitating. No other anxiety/stress book covered that. When you are staring at an MRI that has a nice bulge in it, it is scary. It cripples. Typical anxiety and CBT books and teaching do not deal with this.
I took away from Sarno also that you had to overcome the fear of benign pain. How that process worked was not elaborated, so it took further investigation. This was essential knowledge for me. I did not care about lack of oxygen to muscles, deep emotional trauma or if the pain was distraction. It all pointed to stress read between the lines of HBP and MBP.
I viewed Sarno's work as very basic behavior modification of sorts, with a heavy dose on explaining back issues and back problems, which are the number one chronic pain thing going in the Western world.
Recognizing the fear of the fear was the most important thin in finally returning my body body to homeostasis.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads"
Exactly, Back2it. Sarno widened the understanding of what stress/anxiety can do to the body. This is where I agree he was helpful beyond some of the early mind/body-anxiety experts. He taught us that a sore back is no different than a panic attack.... despite years of misinformed physicians telling us differently in so many cases.
So for me, if it helps people to give their anxiety a three-letter acronym to heal... so be it.
Anxiety manifests in a huge variety of symptoms. I believe hillbilly posted the list here one time, but muscle tension, pain, stomach disorders and a host of others top the list.
The bottom line is, you can give it a 3 letter acronym... the work is still the same to get over anxiety/stress-caused illness.
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 14:32:46
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Back2it,
That was all very nicely expressed. Thank you. In practice, whether one wants to add a little psycho-dynamic spin to things or not (distraction from repressed anger),is not that important. You put it all so clearly and succinctly, I'm not going to try to say it all again as I wouldn't do it as well... |
Edited by - art on 06/13/2013 14:33:37 |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 14:54:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
Recognizing the fear of the fear was the most important thin in finally returning my body body to homeostasis.
And that's all there is to it.
If we can kill our fear, we will get rid of the "disease", all what's left is just conditioning.
Very very simple concept but oh man! it is so hard to convince people to believe it or even try it.
beautiful writing B2I, thanks.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 17:12:03
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TMSHelp.com
TMS (Tension Myositis Syndrome*):
Pain that can be severe and debilitating in the muscles, tendons, ligaments and nerves of the lower back, buttocks, legs and sometimes neck, shoulders and other parts of the body. Dr. John Sarno theorizes that TMS is a defensive reaction of the mind to prevent expression of repressed rage and anxiety and that the pain is created when blood flow to the tissues is restricted by the autonomic nervous system.
*Also known as Tension Myoneural Syndrome or more recently, The Mindbody Syndrome.
"The most important factor in recovery is that the person must be made aware of
what is going on...information...is the 'penicillin' for this disorder."
------ Healing Back Pain by John E. Sarno, M.D. |
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dgreen97
122 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 19:25:31
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| where did the term "the good doctor" come from? i keep hearing this over and over |
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dgreen97
122 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 19:31:03
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yeah i would have to agree. for a long time i thought TMS was different than anxiety and then I did some research on anxiety and found them to be pretty much exactly the same, treated the same way, etc.
I was diagnosed with anxiety/OCD a long time ago and having this relation between TMS/anxiety helped me more than thinking they were different from eachother. That's kind of what I mentioned in another post a couple days ago. People keep calling the same thing different names and its confusing the hell out of everyone.
People think if they treat their anxiety they're not treating TMS and vice versa. And then if somebody reads Brady's book first they might think AOS is different than TMS. I don't get the reasoning behind naming it differently. I believe some people, like Sarno, found out about this on their own and named it themselves to describe what they found. Then you have other authors who just took his stuff, named it something else, and made a book. Then you have others who came before Sarno who called it nervous illness or just anxiety.
I still think it would greatly benefit people if they understood that they're all the same thing. It takes a lot of reading about mind body issues to understand that everyone is describing fear but in different ways.. you start seeing it in the writing that "oh hey, this sounds just like TMS.. i wonder if they're similar." |
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dgreen97
122 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 19:38:24
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in fact this is a FAQ question on anxietycentre.com
"Has anyone at anxietycentre.com ever read any of Dr. John E. Sarno's books regarding his theory on the Tension Myositis Syndrome? I feel that there are many similarities to your treatment methods."
I dont know if its legal to post the answer to this question word for word but I'll just paraphrase.. Jim Folk the guy who runs this site says hes in agreement with Sarno's theory and that reduction of stress and anxiety will eventually eliminate back problems. He even mentions that Sarno recommends similar stress reduction methods to what he has on the site.
Yes this is a paid membership site its like $34.00 bucks a year or something but its worth every penny. Initially I was a little apprehensive like why the hell am I paying for this but in the end its the best site anywhere for anxiety disorder. I think he charges for it because they're always updating the info. There is so much information, every bit of it is good. They have a FAQ that you can ask questions on and they're really active on it. The forum sucks but all of the other info is good. Reading the info on that site could be a great complement to what you're already doing.
Theres also a chapter called "underlying factors", which in TMS lingo would be something like past emotional trauma, etc.
No this isn't a big advertisement for their site I just thought it might help you guys.
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When did TMS become a religion?
