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Fox

USA
496 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  15:09:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here I am posting again - this time about the decrease in blood flow/oxygen deprivation discussion in this thread...Sarno said that this POSSIBLE response of the autonomic nervous system COULD be the physiological mechanism for TMS, but he was not sure and maybe another answer would be found in the future, and that the exact physiological mechanism was unimportant anyway...So, this particular subject - since Sarno was not at all married to the oxygen deprivation idea - is a non-issue and is not at all essential to "believing" in Sarno...So, even though TT (and maybe me) should go back to charm school and tone down their responses, I agree with him that some of the posters in this thread should re-read their Sarno because they have misreprented Sarno's ideas...You really can't just read Sarno once and expect to understand or remember what he has said...But please, everyone stay and continue to post your ideas and let the readers know about new resources that you recommend...For example, if I had not read this forum "religiously" at one point in my life, I never would have known about the writings of Claire Weekes and Dr. Weekes has had a MAJOR influence on my life.
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tmsjptc

USA
124 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  17:15:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting that in "Hope and Help for your Nerves" Dr. Claire Weekes wrote the following in chapter 12:

"But it is essential that at this stage you end your ceaseless pondering and are given one point of view to hold in your tired mind. The solution finally decided upon must be acceptable to you. There is nothing more soul searing than trying to follow blindly a pattern not acceptable to one's heart. So do not persevere with a solution that you feel, deep within yourself, is not the right one. Peace cannot be forced in this way. It is essential that the new view causes a minimum of pain and fear."
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Darko

Australia
387 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  18:09:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
MY GOD what an anal lot.....if there's nothing it fight about well pick semantics. I see I have to clarify myself

1- I have never suggested Sarno was wrong.....cause I don't think he is, I just think his book was incomplete, maybe the later stuff is better I dunno, as I have not read it.

"knowing" that I was generating and suppressing emotions worked the first time, then the second time I got pain after 12 months that didn't do SQUAT for me. I spent about 6 years trying to "know" that concept even more and look at what is going on unconsciously for me, but the pain didn't budge. In the end I had to DO SOMETHING.....and that was change the way i think about things so not to generate the negative emotions that I was suppressing.

Most importantly I had to work on my "vision of the future" if there are threats ahead of me then I have tension and pain.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure you will but that is slightly different to Sarno 101. In fact he says you don't have to change and just the knowledge will free you......I think thats garbage and he has to say that because people are weak and get confronted by the smallest thing.....and would never read the book

I'm still that "same" person but I have evolved and worked on myself......so you could say that is changing oneself.

And that is why I don't advocate Sarno fundamentalism......because it can cut off other ideas that can assist the basic premise.

Then what happens is people start to think EVERYTHING is TMS.....this is also garbage. "yeah i was lifting a million Kg at the gym and dropped it on my face and my right eye ball is hanging out of my ear.........must be TMS cause I accidentally farted in Yoga class and this made me remember that dad said "don't hit your brother in the head with that hammer, you'll break him".....so I made that mean I'm a looser. I should journal about this." Extreme I know, but sometimes cancer and pain are causes by other things.....one needs to take a balanced approach. There is no inflammation with TMS....I even had a TMS doc tell me this. Is it possible??? Yes, anything is! But I would take a look at the physical possibility, and current stresses in your life. Thinking inflammation and every physical issue is TMS without exploring properly is stupid. Yet almost every response to anything on this site is TMS......SUSPECT TMS, DON'T AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME TMS IS THE CAUSE.....if something doesn't heal after a period of time then yeah it's probably TMS.


Fundamentalist thinking of any kind is destructive, same for Sarno. We become all intense and focused on the theory and everything has to be exactly like he says in the book.....this actually leads to more tension.


This is what I'm talking about.....many people have healed by using Sarno in addition to some "extra herbs and spices". Because it's not 100% by the book Sarno doesn't mean it's wrong. It's the results that are important NOT the dogma......if you're stuck it might help you to open your mind a little.

example: when i get sciatica, I attack it with stretching...I know it's TMS and I don't worry about.....but stretching is "wrong"....rubbish it's works if you have the correct thinking. Stretching is not THE solution, but helps treat the symptom....the cause is tension. The pain goes within days

Again this is based on MY experience, and isn't the only/correct way to do it. I found what works by opening my mind and experimenting, and chilling out about it. Just chillout, the pain is nothing to be afraid of and can be easily stopped if you relax and do the right things.....

Relax

D

Edited by - Darko on 06/03/2013 18:17:56
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Darko

Australia
387 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  18:37:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wanted to clarify

SUSPECT TMS, DON'T AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME TMS IS THE CAUSE.....if something doesn't heal after a period of time then yeah it's probably TMS.

This is very complicated to explain. So I'll give an example. I have had Uveitis on and off for 9 years....I treated it as TMS and had zero results. I researched the crap out of it and found out inflammation is going to be diet related. So I changed my diet to vegan and I have done everything possible to eliminate the physical causes.....if I get it again then I KNOW its TMS.....and I can treat it as such.....I will then have zero doubt. That was 18 months ago and so far I'm getting positive results.....but only time will tell. Being vegan is not to treat TMS, but it's simply to rule out physical causes.......and have no intention of giving up my vegan diet even if the eye issues comes back either.

My life is not about treating TMS symptoms when they pop up.

D

Edited by - Darko on 06/03/2013 18:40:22
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Ace1

USA
1040 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  20:20:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear d,
Diet should have zero effect on any inflammatory illness unless it works as a placebo. I really don't think it's response to diet would have a confirmatory effect on if it is physical or TMS. This is just my belief and I thought I would share it with you if it could help. Oh by the way, I agree that Sarno's work was incomplete for true healing for people like you and me (the intense type). It is about changing that intense way of going about things.

Edited by - Ace1 on 06/03/2013 20:24:10
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Darko

Australia
387 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  21:13:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ace....this is a bit off topic

quote:
Diet should have zero effect on any inflammatory illness unless it works as a placebo. I really don't think it's response to diet would have a confirmatory effect on if it is physical or TMS. This is just my belief and I thought I would share it with you if it could help


I would like to encourage you to do a bit of research on the topic and you'll soon form a different opinion. Here is the first hit from google on diet and inflammation

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/inflammation.html

- One’s diet can affect inflammatory responses within the body; the roles of various dietary components in inflammation are discussed below.

- In general, epidemiological studies have found that diets high in saturated fat and trans fat are pro-inflammatory in nature (reviewed in 16). In contrast, some studies have found that adherence to a Mediterranean-style diet—a diet high in monounsaturated fats—may help reduce inflammation (17, 18)

- A study in 39 overweight or obese adults found adherence to a low-glycemic index, energy-restricted diet resulted in a 48% decrease in levels of CRP—a common clinical biomarker of cardiac-related inflammation but also a general marker of inflammation (27).

Also lookup Animal protein and inflammation. Then watch the following
- Forks over knives
- fat sick and nearly dead
lookup the results people are getting with Turmeric
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1910028,00.html

Oh and these also, most of which are inflammation related
http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/index.html

I don't want to confuse anyone.....but TMS and DIET related inflammation are not the same thing......I don't think it's wise to ignore all the evidence because of a theory or belief.

D

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alix

USA
434 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  21:32:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just cannot accept the notion of "The more you accept the Sarno theory the quicker you will get better".
Believe me I did just that for 2 years and nothing happened. For many of us the cognitive aspect of Sarno is not enough.
It is only when I took care of the behavioral side (thoughts, fear, reactions), without neglecting Sarno of course, that I got better.
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pspa123

672 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  21:50:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Darko, this past discussion of whether all ailments not caused by trauma or infection are TMS/TMS equivalents might be of interest.

http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7936&SearchTerms=infection
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tennis tom

USA
4749 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  22:04:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Darko, all I can say is you have done yourself a disservice by not reading the Good Doctor's later books, they may have clarified things for you. You have "healed" by doing exactly what Dr. Sarno has said to do: WHEN YOU FEEL THE TMS PAIN, THINK PSYCHOLOGICAL.

What do you think he meant by those words?

I recommend you re-read his books you have and also read his books that you haven't, otherwise we can't carry on an intelligent conversation about his theory. Be anal about it.
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tennis tom

USA
4749 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  22:15:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fox, good effort! Seeing what you are going through attempting to correct "misconceptions" about Dr. Sarno's theory, I see a mirror of what I've been up against. We've found a new TMS affective symptom: TMS/RCD, or TMS/READING COMPREHENSION DISORDER.

Good Try!
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Darko

Australia
387 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  22:26:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TT, I am aware of that, and I DON'T dispute what he is saying.....I don't know how to make that any clearer.

What I am saying is that his books that I read where incomplete and he did not address the "think psychological" nowhere near enough.

If he did explain it properly then there would be less people stuck in forums.....it wasn't until I read some of what HB, Monte and Scott Brady were saying that it really landed for me. In fact I find "pain free for life" to be the best book I have read and is what gave me access to being......pain free.

When I looked at healing backpain as the only way forward I was stuck because there wasn't enough in there.

@ Alix.....BOOM! Nailed it!
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Fox

USA
496 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  00:11:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think what Sarno meant by "Think Psychological" was telling you to investigate how your emotions may have influenced your brain to generate your psychosomatic symptoms...That is opposed to "Think Physical" - the normal way most people interpret the causation of the symptoms - that your problem is one of structural, mechanical deficiencies or weaknesses - physically based.
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Ace1

USA
1040 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  07:48:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Darko,
As you know if you look up any stance on anything in medicine you can find countless references. I no doubt believe that lifestyle modification including diet can help ease a dis-ease where its basic cause is tension. I think the studies may support this aspect. The true healing always boils down to tension reduction. For example, I used to be lactose intolerant. Go look up diet and lactose intolerance and I bet you'll find tons of references and data. I however treated myself for this with the tms approach and I can eat and drink what ever I want. Now if I am under a scenerio where I am straining mentally and I drink milk I may still get very mild symptoms, but only in those situations (a tms equivalant). As you know when you have a TMS symptom, it feels very, very physical and real. You kind of do have to take a leap of faith for a while. The questions you want to ask yourself is why can people live to 103 with minimal medical problems yet eat sausage and bacon with eggs EVERY morning (I have a patient like that). If it causes inflammation than why are there perfectally healthy people that eat meat. (you could say genes, but I guess that could be used for people who have no tms pain too). This is just my take on things. Good luck in which ever route you choose to follow.
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tennis tom

USA
4749 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  07:49:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yep Fox, I wish this were Camelot but it's more like Benghazi, I need some R&R, I'm gonna' bug out to the Canary Islands.

I think what Dr. Sarno means by "thinking psychological" is:

*when one feels the pain from the TMS symptom,

*switch thoughts to the emotional events going on in ones life,

*that are creating the overwhelming subconscious rage,

*necessitating repression,

*through TMS symptom distraction.


Dr. Sarno cites the Rahe-Holmes list for examples to be mined, for those who aren't sure what the stress filled life EVENTS are.

I'll repeat the list from my sig. More current stressors like "computer crashes" and "pissing matches" at internet message boards can be added to ones personal list:


LIFE EVENTS GOOD AND BAD--THAT MESSES WITH OUR HOMEOSTASIS: (my phrasing not R&H's)

Death of a spouse
Divorce
Marital separation
Imprisonment
Death of a close family member
Personal injury or illness
Marriage
Dismissal from work
Marital reconciliation
Retirement
Change in health of family member
Pregnancy
Sexual difficulties
Gain a new family member
Business readjustment
Change in financial state
Death of a close friend
Change to different line of work
Change in frequency of arguments
Major mortgage
Foreclosure of mortgage or loan
Change in responsibilities at work
Child leaving home
Trouble with in-laws
Outstanding personal achievement
Spouse starts or stops work
Begin or end school
Change in living conditions
Revision of personal habits
Trouble with boss
Change in working hours or conditions
Change in residence
Change in schools
Change in recreation
Change in church activities
Change in social activities
Minor mortgage or loan
Change in sleeping habits
Change in number of family reunions
Change in eating habits
Vacation
Christmas
Minor violation of law


==================================================

DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8D7w0IUIPU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g

TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale


Edited by - tennis tom on 06/04/2013 08:20:05
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NextAdventure

USA
57 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  08:12:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tom

What the H/R Stress scale you posted and also Sarno largely missed is that internal (endogenous) stress is often more debilitating than external events. It is with us 24/7 and informs our every moment.

Things like perfectionism, dysfunctional relationship skills, cosmology, driven personality, self determined time pressure, social maladjustments, biased viewpoints, anger, depression, anxiety etc
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tennis tom

USA
4749 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  08:49:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No Ric, what YOU missed is the RESERVOIR OF RAGE. The RH list is one element, the relatively current events--yes I remember you saying it's outdated, so I added computer crashes to it. WE will be outdated soon too, and aging is a great TMS subconscious rage creator. The other parts of the rage creating equation are your childhood and your personality type as you alluded too.

TMS is a combination of stuff. You know how they say someone is "tightly wound", any little mishap triggers them into "hysterics". Their RESERVOIR OF RAGE is always on the tipping point.

The Good Doctor didn't miss a thing. You have TMS/RCD--READING COMPREHENSION DISORDER. Sarno needs to be read SLOWLY--THOUGHTFULLY--WORD FOR WORD--then sleep on it and let it sink in on a cellular level into your MINDBODY. It's just in your head now, you are skimming him like you are writing for an article--this is not going to work for you if you are trying to get well. You came her with what sounded like TMS/fibro, how's that going, have you improved or is this all about debunking the Good Doctor?

Cheers,
tt/lsmft

Edited by - tennis tom on 06/04/2013 08:54:15
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pspa123

672 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  09:50:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is it always "or"?
Is it never "and"?

Stephen Sondheim, Into the Woods
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Darko

Australia
387 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  13:57:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ace.....that's a very interesting angle and one I certainly didn't think of.....although looking at the results I don't see how changing ones diet can have such a dramatic effect if the tension is never addressed. There is likely some sort of combo going on I would guess, but I do agree about tension. Tension is major issue, and there are so many things people do to their bodies via lifestyle it's not surprising we see the varied results.

D
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tennis tom

USA
4749 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  14:40:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Darko



...I do agree about tension. Tension is major issue...




Ergo:

TMSHelp.com

TMS (Tension Myositis Syndrome)


Booyah, we have a lift-off
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gigalos

Netherlands
310 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  14:58:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by art

I was quite hesitant to express my own opinions on TMS as I began to find my way, and it became ever clearer to me that psychosomatic pain is very often stress induced. Two things worked to encourage me to speak more boldly.

1: The overwhelmingly obvious fact that so many people on this forum suffer from hypochondria and health anxiety. These people are generally not going to be helped by being urged to plumb the depths of their subconscious minds to get to the bottom of their repressed rage. The whole notion became more and more antiquated to me.

2: The fact that many people were being urged to do just that. I realized the best way for me to help those people was to call it like I saw it.

It's important to understand these are not outlier or radical opinions. A quick Internet survey will reveal that professionals are increasingly understanding...and treating psychosomatic pain as a stress disorder...that it consciously experienced stress. No one is expressly disavowing repressed emotions as another causative factor, but it's clear which way the wind is blowing.


. Most practitioners now recognize consciously felt stress as a direct causal agent... in addition to repressed emotions. In clinical practice moreover, it is my understanding that the emphasis is frequently on consciously experienced stress, rumination, and worry.

http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Terminology_for_TMS/PPD

Alternative Names for TMS

Automatic Overload Syndrome (AOS): Dr. Scott Brady developed the term AOS to describe chronic conditions, which he discusses in his book Pain Free for Life. Brady defines AOS as a group of chronic pains and other symptoms caused by harmful levels of stress, pressure, and repressed strong negative emotions that have built up in the subconscious mind. The symptoms of AOS include back pain, headaches, irritable bowel syndrome, insomnia, and other chronic conditions. Brady focuses on stress and pressure that builds up in the autonomic nervous system, which causes these conditions. [Brady, Scott. Pain Free for Life. New York: Hachette Book Group. 2006. pg. 8]

Mind Body Syndrome (MBS): Dr. Howard Schubiner calls the condition of having chronic symptoms caused by psychological factors as MBS. Schubiner says "MBS is caused by a complex set of neurological connections between the brain and the body, rather than a disease localized in one area of the body." MBS symptoms include chronic pan syndromes, such as tension headaches, back pain, fibromyalgia, and Myofascial Pain syndrome, as well as autonomic nervous system related disorders such as irritable bowel syndrome and Reflex sympathetic dstrophy. Other symptoms are also included in MBS like insomnia, Tinnitus, Anxiety, and Chronic fatigue syndrome. [Schubiner, Howard. Unlearn Your Pain. Pleasant Ridge: Mind Body Publishing. 2010. pg. 8-19]

Stress Illness: Dr. Dave Clarke has coined the phrase Stress Illness to diagnose conditions that are chronic and caused by psychological factors of stress and the repression of emotions. Clarke argues that there are five different kinds of stress that create physical symptoms such as childhood, current, traumatic, depression and anxiety disorders. Clarke argues that other names such as psychosomatic and somatoform disorder suggest that the patient's symptoms are either not real or are part of a psychological disorder instead of being cause by stress. Clarke writes "Sufferers are often unaware of the nature or degree of the stress that makes them ill. Symptoms can occur anywhere in the body and can be just as severe as symptoms caused by any other disease, but x-rays and blood tests cannot detect the cause." [Clarke, Dave. They Can%27t Find Anything Wrong. Boulder: First Sentient Publications. 2007.]



not joining the discussion, just wanted to add the term "conversion syndrome"
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