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Joy_I_Am
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
 Posted - 09/24/2011 : 06:05:15
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I agree with Art, that the patient stops worrying that the symptoms will hurt him, and that is the main thrust of the theory. I think the Freudian stuff is partly Sarno, as a doctor with medical training, looking for cause and effect, for proof. But we don't need it if we accept the basic concept.
However, without a bit of theory floating around in the background, what you get down to is 'Ignore it, it's all in your mind', and I don't think our egos could accept that!  I'm quite happy to believe it now, but if someone had simply told me, I don't think it would have sunk in. By reading through and around the subject, by finding other people who've made it work for them, the theory gains the extra credence I need for it to work. I respect it. I own it.
As for journalling, it works for me. As a writer, I find that I go into the Zone, and stuff comes out that I hadn't even known I knew. It's how I dig out and organise my thoughts. But for some people that's anathema, and they do better with talking it out, or drawing ir out, or dancing it or kick-boxing or screaming or singing it out. Whatever works for you! Therapy doesn't work for me because I am too self-protective, I couldn't be fully honest; but for some people, that's exactly what they need, an authority or a confessor or a non-com observer, a witness. I am fully honest with myself on paper. I know I can rip it up if it's too painful, but at least the pain is out there.
Do I need to journal to get better/remain well? Don't know. But I do know I like doing it, and that I sort a lot of stuff out that way. Not everything has to be TMS-related. And not everything has to be explained.
One thing I've addressed in my journal is that everyone has stressors, life is stressful, and I make a lot of my own problems by how I over-react and catastrophize. My spoilt and uncertain inner child doesn't believe it should have to cope with normal trials, that it's 'not fair'; I/it needs to learn to cope and think differently about this. Writing this down doesn't solve it... but it contains the information, nails it to the page, so I can refer to it when I'm 'in a state' and remember that this is what I need to address.
Some people might need a therapist to point out 'Hey, this is what you're doing,' or 'I see your hurt, it's real'. Others might need to just say 'Ignore it' and go and lift some boxes'. I just know that, in religion, you quickly get people who start insisting their way of worshipping god is the only way, and anyone else is a heretic and must be destroyed, and I don't want to stress myself out by applying this to Sarno!
Peace, Joy |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2011 : 07:55:43
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Balto,
It's not a matter of being at fault in the sense of being negligent. These are difficult issues to say the least. We're all much too quick to beat ourselves up. Things that might seem obvious in hindsight, are anything but while we're struggling with fear and pain.
Congratulate yourself on your courage, wisdom, and progress. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2011 : 09:10:19
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[quoteI feel, given the lack of TMS practitioners on the planet, the books are the #1 resource to those committed to TMS education. The gremlin often blinds us to what we personally need from the books, but by reading and re-reading, slowly and thoughtfully, eventually the TMS "knowledge penicillin" truth can be found in them.
[/quote]
You are very right TT. Most of the time while we're in pain, confused, and scare we always in a rush looking for a quick fix. We don't take the time out to really slow down to read and to think clearly. |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2011 : 11:13:08
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quote:
Originally posted by balto
Years later I talked to a friend who happened to be a therapist. He told me he were never able to unlock anyone's subconcious mind and release their repressed emotions. The most important aspect of his job is to gain the patients' trust, be a good friend, a good listener. Because most of his patients are lonely souls, they usually get better when they can find someone they trust, someone willing to listen to them, to their problems.
Even Sarno mentions in the divided mind that in the majority of cases, specific repressed events/emotions are unlikely to ever be discovered and that the emotions (subconscious rage, etc.) almost never make it to the surface. I can't recall the exact language he used, but he essentially says that the anger never breaks through to a large degree.
To my understanding, the purpose isn't to try to u"unlock" the subconscious, but rather to help the conscious mind understand the process of how TMS happens, and how these potentially subconscious emotions/events may contribute to their daily life pains.
I mean, if you do some research into child abuse and sexual abuse victims... it sure seems as if these people have extremely difficult adult lives, in many cases. Now, it's unlikely that these people are purposely making their adult lives difficult, just because they had a bad childhood. More likely, there are unresolved, unrecognized and potentially yes... even unconscious elements of these issues living permanently in their minds and causing issues later in life.
Think about ages 2-16, for example. We pick up 95% of our language skills between those ages. We probably learn 60-70% of the critical information our brains need in that time... and draw on it for our entire lives. Our brains are essentially formed in those years. Why would it be so hard to believe that our PERSONALITIES are formed in those years, too... and that severe challenges, and/or flaws could play into problems in later life... either with our without our awareness?
Again, Sarno himself says that some get better simply by understanding the process. Claire Weekes believes this is also the solution for most. But, clearly for some... it takes more than this. For some, there may be things happening beneath the surface. Things that CONTRIBUTE to KEEPING them in a state of fear, no matter how many times they try to tell themselves rationally that they needn't fear symptoms.
IMO, the mind isn't so simple that you can always just tell it something and have it listen to your wish. Sometimes you have to puzzle your way out, a bit. This is where introspection, psychotherapy and things like journaling may be helpful for some, I'm guessing.
_____________________________
-1/2010 - Developed chronic sinus problems. ENTs/Docs can't find anything
-5/29/2010 - Doc gives cocktail of allergy meds which induces first ever panic attack/anxiety.
-7/16/2010 - Anxiety stays/worsens - put on Xanax
2/1/2011 - Began Xanax taper - Withdrawal starts - full body chaos
-6/11/2011 - Last dose of Xanax. Physical/emotional chaos continues for several months.
-Now: Taking it day by day, looking for real answers and ways to heal myself without medical poison. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2011 : 11:43:19
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Bryan,
That's exactly right re Sarno's position. We generally need not delve to the very bottom of the well. And in fact we cannot. The perceived need to do that seems a somewhat common misunderstanding. As someone who puts little or no stock in the subconscious rage/TMS dynamic, that's pretty frustrating...
Perhaps there's something self-selecting in the population that finds its way to this forum, but it's been 5 years now of reading story after story that implicates fully conscious anxiety as the real villain.
People relax, they get better. What could be more simple? |
Edited by - art on 09/24/2011 20:48:27 |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2011 : 14:36:13
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Art,
If it were as simple as "just relaxing," the pharmaceutical industry wouldn't be making billions per year on drugs for people who despite efforts, can't seem to do so. You wouldn't have millions of people posting across anxiety message boards, trying to puzzle themselves out of the mazes they are in.
I spent 41 years (consciously) about as relaxed as one could possibly get. I faced great stress via my employment and never backed down. Of course, I had some habits that were good (exercise) and some not so good. (Cocktail at night, quite often.) But, once the switch flipped... no amount of standard relaxation techniques or telling myself not to fear symptoms seemed to work. Yes, by tirelessly working through Dr. Weekes' books/audio... I was able to find some peace. Things are better, and getting off of the toxic prescription drug I was on helped immensely.
Telling someone to "just relax" is in my opinion, telling an obese person to "just lose 150 pounds." Just stop eating, right? It's that easy... what could be more simple?
Again, I've met very intelligent, self-aware individuals who work very hard at finding peace and acceptance... but have an extremely difficult time. Discrediting the notion that there may be things beyond your conscious awareness at play would seem to be bad advice, imo.
In fact, Claire Weekes herself claims that many setbacks are brought back by memory, alone... "the sight of those streets, those houses, those shops." She's as behavioral as they come, and yet still gives credit to the notion that things lodged in certain places in your brain may give way to setback.
So, one might say that memory is different than the subconscious. I'm not so sure about that. Why is it that you can sometimes only remember something once you stop trying to remember it? In fact, that's another line from her work... "it's difficult to forget something while trying so hard to forget." Point being... your conscious mind is seemingly not in control at times. You can't automatically recall what you want to, and yet... you relax your brain... and that information just comes to you. Now, if that's not a subconscious process, I don't know what is. By definition... it would seem to be.
Another example would be meditation. Anyone who has gone deeper into meditation is aware (and are often warned before hand, for lack of a better word) that clearing your mind may give way to things you didn't know were lurking in your mind. Some people experience extreme disturbances when they clear and relax their conscious minds. By definition, this would seem to demonstrate subconscious phenomena quite clearly. Given the common nature of this occurrence, I'm not sure how people here can project that these subconscious thoughts are not capable of interfering with daily life, or creating problems.
Some people can't "just relax" and make it all go away, Art. For some people, issues might just be a bit deeper than a fear of symptoms. It might take a better understanding of the process of TMS... themselves... their history... their personality types... and yes, what might be going on beneath the surface.
Before it was suggested to me, I had no idea I was a people pleaser. I just would have never thought of it. Now, I see it clearly... and I'm starting to see WHY I am, and the potential negative consequences of being this way. That's just one small example, but it's a piece of a puzzle that may or may not help me find ultimate peace.
I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment that relaxation leads to cure, in a roundabout way. But again, that's a bit like saying that the cure to obesity is weight-loss. Thing is... that looks wildly different from person to person.
_____________________________
-1/2010 - Developed chronic sinus problems. ENTs/Docs can't find anything
-5/29/2010 - Doc gives cocktail of allergy meds which induces first ever panic attack/anxiety.
-7/16/2010 - Anxiety stays/worsens - put on Xanax
2/1/2011 - Began Xanax taper - Withdrawal starts - full body chaos
-6/11/2011 - Last dose of Xanax. Physical/emotional chaos continues for several months.
-Now: Taking it day by day, looking for real answers and ways to heal myself without medical poison. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2011 : 20:57:26
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You misunderstand me completely. I'm using "relax" in a very loose, colloquial sense.Poor choice of word obviously, given your reaction.
I've fought severe, debilitating anxiety and panic attacks all my life and understand how difficult it can be. I was addicted to Xanax for years. Damn near killed me. I in no way mean to imply that for some of us this is an easy battle. What I do mean to say is there's no need to complicate things with antiquated Freudian notions.
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Edited by - art on 09/24/2011 20:58:18 |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2011 : 21:18:12
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Art,
Maybe I did misunderstand you, and my reaction may have been partly in response to some other posts, as well. Agree that this is not an easy battle. But, it is one I believe can be won. (I've seen it.)
All that aside, I'm sorry you've suffered from panic/anxiety for so long. I can't imagine having had this for any longer than I have. It's been just over a year and I'm bloody done with it. I absolutely will rid myself of this, and I hope you have... or will.
Also sorry about the Xanax. What an absolute disaster that can be. I was so careful, and took so little... and still got absolutely steamrolled by WD's. Still fighting through some waves, 4 months out after a super-slow taper off of a super-low dose.
Anyway... I enjoy your posts, whether I always agree or not. Hope you continue to improve.
_____________________________
-1/2010 - Developed chronic sinus problems. ENTs/Docs can't find anything
-5/29/2010 - Doc gives cocktail of allergy meds which induces first ever panic attack/anxiety.
-7/16/2010 - Anxiety stays/worsens - put on Xanax
2/1/2011 - Began Xanax taper - Withdrawal starts - full body chaos
-6/11/2011 - Last dose of Xanax. Physical/emotional chaos continues for several months.
-Now: Taking it day by day, looking for real answers and ways to heal myself without medical poison. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2011 : 05:14:15
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Thanks Bryan,
I've improved greatly in the last few years. I've not had a panic attack in quite a long time, and the xanax battle is a distant memory. Anxiety disorders can be beaten. The brain has remarkable plasticity fortunately. One important key for me has been the insight that I can't think my way to some sort of inner peace. Positive thinking doesn't work for long because for every positive thought there's an equal and opposite negative thought, and we're irresistibly drawn to think it. Anxiety must be cut off at the source, which is to say at the level of the physical. Now, rather than following every anxious thought to it's catastrophic conclusion I quit thinking altogether and just breathe...
Sounds simple, but it's remarkably effective. Once you realize you have the tools to deal with intense anxiety, you're half way home. |
Edited by - art on 09/25/2011 10:24:03 |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2011 : 06:32:38
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quote:
Now, rather than following every anxious thought to it's catastrophic conclusion I quit thinking altogether and just breathe...
This sounded like you're combining the teaching of Dr. Claire Weekes and Dr. Robert Benson. Accepting, floating, and breathing meditation.
http://www.pbs.org/bodyandsoul/218/benson.htm |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2011 : 08:15:27
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quote:
Originally posted by balto
quote:
Now, rather than following every anxious thought to it's catastrophic conclusion I quit thinking altogether and just breathe...
This sounded like you're combining the teaching of Dr. Claire Weekes and Dr. Robert Benson. Accepting, floating, and breathing meditation.
http://www.pbs.org/bodyandsoul/218/benson.htm
Hi Balto,
I've not read any self-help books along those lines. I'm not sure why. I suppose I never really had any faith that my problems could be solved by anyone but me...
Not recommending that folks go it alone of course. It's just the way it worked out for me. And I don't mean to over-simplify. Mechanistic strategies (breathing, meditating, whatever) will only take you so far without some spiritual underpinnings, however they might be defined by the individual. |
Edited by - art on 09/25/2011 08:20:26 |
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Joy_I_Am
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2011 : 13:07:15
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Bryan, I'm glad to see you mention that meditation can open you up to disturbing feelings, because when I try to meditate, I get a feeling close to terror, have to leap up, and feel disturbed for hours after. Everyone I've asked who meditates seems baffled by this, even quite 'high level' teachers etc. It's like they've never heard of this phenomenon before. (I try to meditate alone, however, or with a CD rather than with a teacher).
I'm sorry that it's so, because I feel it's something that would help me if I could do it 'right'. Do you think I should persevere, or are there some people that it's just not good for?
Bests, Joy |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2011 : 10:10:30
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There are different kinds of meditation. Perhaps the method you are using is not agreeing with you.
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2011 : 14:05:18
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Hi Joy,
I can only say that I'm very surprised the teachers you've spoken to haven't heard of this. That's shocking, actually. It's so common that one of the guided meditations I listen to actually has an episode dedicated to overcoming fears/issues that arise from mediation. This particular teacher compares it to a muddy, stirred up lake. When it finally settles and the water clears... you can see what's really down there. Sometimes it's pretty, sometimes it's not.
So, to me... your situation is very common. I'd agree with Dave that you can look for other types. But, I also think eventually you might want to see if you can get back to standard, breath meditation... and see if you can just sit with the fear. I know it's hard, but maybe little by little. There might be some good in being able to let it out, and to be with it slowly... knowing that it can't hurt you. To me that's somewhat of a "tell" that it's happening. But, I'm no expert and no psychologist, so look into it yourself and decide what's right.
In the interim, what about guided meditation?
I love these two...
Meditation Oasis - On iTunes. Free - lady has a soothing voice and she's extremely enlightened. Great stuff. Hard to believe it's free.
Meditation for Health Podcast - Dr. Robert Puff - Also free on iTunes. OK, his voice sounds a little bit like an SNL skit, but it's still soothing in a way. He's also a very bright guy and does several podcasts on wellness. (Happiness Podcast and Enlightenment Podcast.)
He's got a simple way of delivering material that seems simple on the surface, but it really very deep. He's the one who did the podcast for overcoming fears while we meditate. Again, these are free... and to me, highly valuable.
There are also things like walking meditations, and candle-flame meditations, chants... all sorts of things. I know you can find one that fits you. Just takes time.
Good luck to you!
_____________________________
-1/2010 - Developed chronic sinus problems. ENTs/Docs can't find anything
-5/29/2010 - Doc gives cocktail of allergy meds which induces first ever panic attack/anxiety.
-7/16/2010 - Anxiety stays/worsens - put on Xanax
2/1/2011 - Began Xanax taper - Withdrawal starts - full body chaos
-6/11/2011 - Last dose of Xanax. Physical/emotional chaos continues for several months.
-Now: Taking it day by day, looking for real answers and ways to heal myself without medical poison. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2011 : 09:15:23
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| Personally I am a fan of TM (Transcendental Meditation) which is effortless and soothes the mind. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2011 : 13:55:38
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I have to be the world's worst meditator. I either feel like climbing the walls or going to sleep. I actually do fall asleep a lot! I've seen reference to some studies recently that it might have a positive effect on the brain, so I wish I were better at it.
Dave, did you take an official course in TM? Get a mantra etc? |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2011 : 15:44:53
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Years ago I used to have terror thoughts while trying to meditate too. And one time I met a monk in Thailand and told him about it. He told me don't "try", don't force, let it be. He said most of everything in life is habit. Just pick out one of our favorite, calming phrase and keep repeat it slowly over and over again. If thoughts enter our mind, let them in. Observe, acknowledge, but never try to control them, and never try to concentrate on anything. Just keep repeating the phrase whenever we can. Over period of weeks or months, our brain will rewire itself and automaticly concentrate on that phrase without any of our effort.
He also said if all else failed, just day dreaming. Day dreaming is a form of meditation too. we concentrate our thought in it. We control it, we're relaxing in it. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2011 : 19:35:19
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I do mindfulness meditation, which can be done anywhere, anytime. There is the traditional sitting meditation, but there is also walking meditation. Actually, you can make anything mundane thing you do a mindfulness meditation, whether eating, brushing your teeth, showering...
I know some people get anxious when meditating, and it has even happened to me on occasion. I think the trick is not to force it. If feeling anxious, get up and try again later. Or try one of the other forms of meditation I mentioned, or make up your own.
Unfortunately, meditation has to be done every day, just like any other discipline, for maximum benefits. It's probably better to do it occasionally than not at all, but it is far better to do it at the same time every day for at least 20 minutes. I have been rather undisciplined about this so far. |
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Joy_I_Am
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2011 : 03:57:02
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What darlings you all are to give me such helpful advice! Thank you, thank you! Bryan, I'll look up those podcasts.
It's funny, I can daydream at the drop of a hat - in fact, sometimes it's hard for me to come back down to earth! Maybe it's that I'm trying too hard to do meditation Exactly Right, grrr, popping a vein on my head...  I think a lot of us TMSers can relate to that.
Bryan, Dave, Art, Balto, Wrldtrv, thank you. Have a great day, guys! Joy x |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2011 : 08:04:18
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quote:
See, she states that she believes in most cases, no "deep seated" problem is keeping these people ill. It's simply fear of fear. But, in my opinion... one can't take that to mean that ALL people are simply afraid of their symptoms.
It's fine to say "just lose the fear of your symptoms." But, perhaps fear is part of your core. Perhaps it's deeper than your conscious mind has access to? Perhaps personality traits help KEEP you in a state of fear.
The cure to this condition is simply in losing the fear of it. I can state that a million times, but it will only become real to you if you experience it also. This is a fact, not conjecture. How you go about getting to that point and how much money you plan to spend getting there are the only variables to be navigated. But you must chart your course for that destination or there will be no recovery.
You have to go through a process of changing your beliefs. The following example is a simplified version of the process: When we are young, many of us are told by our parents that Santa Claus brings presents for us on Christmas Eve. As we age, we are let in on the secret, and the truth may be shocking, but we eventually see that indeed the story is incredulous and the truth of the explanation resonates with our newfound sense, so we simply discard the old paradigm and accept the new one. This is a permanent turning point from which we never go back to believing the old one unless severely mentally impacted in a way that I am not familiar with and that is outside the scope of this thread anyway. The most important thing is that this belief now guides our behavior. We don't passively wait on things to show up on Christmas when we have our own kids. We realize that providing is up to us. We behave according to our beliefs.
The only difference between what is happening to you now and the above example is that you have not been able to banish your symptoms, whatever they are, and so you haven't completely accepted the truth yet, and your symptoms tell you lies that you believe in the moment, your head races to check out the symptom, you despair, more chemicals of stress are unleashed throughout the body, and you stay in this state. But the state has been harmless all along, remains so, and ever so shall be. That is the irony. If you believed, truly, that there was nothing at all wrong you would behave as such. This is the trick. People can state all day long that they aren't afraid of something, but it is their actions that count.
This is the point Claire Weekes makes, Abraham Low makes (and I HIGHLY recommend you checking out his books for reinforcement), Sarno makes, and every other practitioner makes ad nauseum. But instead we discuss things like mode of treatment, which TMS therapist has a better track record, whose books are powerful and inspirational, etc. Low treated folks with remarkable success by instilling self discipline in their behaviors, not terribly different from "accept and float" or "return to normal activity." This is the advice that is most commonly not followed because of expectations people set while they are still fearful.
So, from now until you can confidently state that this is behind you, always examine when you are behaving in a way that is contrary to the belief that you are well and capable. Work toward getting past those barriers a little at a time, and never, ever, ever quit. Best of luck!
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 09/29/2011 08:55:21 |
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Question: Time?
