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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
 Posted - 09/28/2013 : 19:20:52
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For me like maybe for some of you, I find that the most difficult thing is to believe that my symptoms are not based on anything physical but rather something emotional or psychological.
I alternate between bouts of absolutely believing to not believing at all and then wanting to believe. From reading many success stories I have concluded that those who succeed are those who have absolutely committed to the idea that their pain is not structural.
So could anyone please tell me how to distinguish between pain that is psychological and pain that is physical.
What made you accept that your pain was not physical?
How do I truly know my pain is not physical & that I'm not going to further damage myself.
Thank you
mala
"It is more important to know what sort of person has a disease than to know
what sort of disease a person has." ~ Hippocrates (460-377 B.C.)
Mala Singh Barber on Facebook |
Edited by - mala on 10/03/2013 19:51:25 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2013 : 11:38:27
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quote:
Originally posted by mala
So could anyone please tell me how to distinguish between pain that is psychological and pain that is physical.
If only it were that easy...
I'm afraid your mindset is, and has been for as long as you have visited here, skewed towards the physical realm.
You seem to be looking to "prove" to yourself that the pain you feel is not physical, so that you can safely treat it as psychological. Yet, the fear remains, feeds the doubt and keeps the cycle going.
I wish there was a technique that I could share to get you out of this cycle, but I'm afraid it is a personal journey and you must reach that point on your own.
When you are in the right mindset your first belief about any recurring symptom is that it is psychogenic. If I wake up with some lower back pain, I just "know" it is psychogenic and I think about what might be bothering me that I'm not dealing with. Then I ignore the pain and go about my day, and it fades. Not for one second do I believe that I have injured my back or that the pain will escalate into painful spasms I was prone to in the past. It does not enter my mind for a second. The pain is nothing more than a benign sensation, a reminder to address my emotional health, a nuisance to be ignored.
The only way to reach this point is by reconditioning yourself. It takes a lot of time and a lot of repetition. You have been at it a long time but for whatever reason you are unable to reach the state where you truly believe the symptoms are psychogenic. I think that you are able to convince yourself, briefly, but inevitably the fear takes control and you are back into the cycle.
As long as your first thought is in the structural realm and leads to fear of causing physical damage, the symptoms are serving their purpose and they will continue. You have to find a way to break the cycle and truly commit to believing that the symptoms are TMS.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2013 : 13:14:55
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Dave
I wish there was a technique that I could share to get you out of this cycle, but I'm afraid it is a personal journey and you must reach that point on your own.
Great answer by Dave, I agree fully. Ultimately we are responsible for our health decisions (unless we're out cold in the ER), our lives and only we know what we are feeling. |
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alangordon
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2013 : 20:33:05
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Hi Mala,
Dave is spot on. You're currently in TMS purgatory: sometimes you believe, sometimes you don't; you've compiled some evidence, but you often doubt that evidence.
Getting out of TMS purgatory is an active choice. Some need the confirmation of a physician in order to take that leap (did you ever consult with Dr. Schubiner?)
Once you have a sufficient amount of evidence, simply treat every doubt-themed thought as an enemy to be shot down. Every single one. You call yell at them: "You're B.S. I know what you're trying to do!"
When you let these doubt-themed thoughts slip through, when you buy into them, it just fuels your symptoms. The only power the symptoms have over you is their power to scare you. |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2013 : 02:55:49
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Alan,
Yes I did email Dr Schubiner & he asked me to send him my test results/scans. He replied very promptly & I posted his reply on the other link. Here it is.
quote:
I emailed Dr Schubiner & within 24 hrs he asked me to email him details of my medical reports which I did. The next day he replied with this
"It's a bit difficult to make diagnoses over the Internet. However the reports if your neck and back MRIs look like there is nothing serious there that would cause severe pain.
I can't tell if you have adhesions causing abdominal pain or not, but I doubt if that is a major problem. Your vulvar/vaginal pain is TMS.
Are you seeing a therapist who can help you? I know it's difficult, but you need to know that you can and will get better! You are doing the right things. Keep going and relax in the knowledge that you are healthy"
I am so very grateful to him. He took time out of his busy schedule to read my mail, look at my reports & help me. He didn't have to but he did.
I am going to continue treating this as TMS & if I can't crack it myself, I will go see him.
Thank you Alan for suggesting I email him.
Thanks
Mala
Dave. thx I really do appreciate your reply & I do believe u r trying to help
quote:
If only it were that easy...
I wish it was...........
quote:
I'm afraid your mindset is, and has been for as long as you have visited here, skewed towards the physical realm.
You seem to be looking to "prove" to yourself that the pain you feel is not physical, so that you can safely treat it as psychological. Yet, the fear remains, feeds the doubt and keeps the cycle going.
Actually Dave that's not true, I have spent a lot of time thinking psychologically & even journalling. I have notebooks full of stuff to prove it too.
quote:
When you are in the right mindset your first belief about any recurring symptom is that it is psychogenic. If I wake up with some lower back pain, I just "know" it is psychogenic and I think about what might be bothering me that I'm not dealing with. Then I ignore the pain and go about my day, and it fades. Not for one second do I believe that I have injured my back or that the pain will escalate into painful spasms I was prone to in the past. It does not enter my mind for a second. The pain is nothing more than a benign sensation, a reminder to address my emotional health, a nuisance to be ignored.
I have done that. You make it sound very simple about acknowledging & ignoring the pain & are very lucky that it fades. Have u ever wondered what it must be like for someone to do that time & time again only to have the pain increase. What it must be like to feel the bewilderment of "why isn't it working for me"?
quote:
As long as your first thought is in the structural realm and leads to fear of causing physical damage, the symptoms are serving their purpose and they will continue. You have to find a way to break the cycle and truly commit to believing that the symptoms are TMS.
My first thought is not always structural. The fact that its TMS does not necessarily mean that it is any easier to deal with, sometimes its even more hard than being given a true structural/physical diagnosis. If one has cancer, one almost has no choice but to deal with the situation & do what is prescribed but with a TMS diagnosis, its not always clear cut. Pinning down emotions, wondering what the h.... is causing the pain psychologically is very hard & frustrating.
Thx
Mala
"It is more important to know what sort of person has a disease than to know
what sort of disease a person has." ~ Hippocrates (460-377 B.C.)
Mala Singh Barber on Facebook |
Edited by - mala on 10/01/2013 02:57:33 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2013 : 10:49:10
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quote:
Originally posted by mala
...I have spent a lot of time thinking psychologically & even journalling. I have notebooks full of stuff to prove it too.
This is important, for sure, but not as important as how we react to the symptoms.
quote:
I have done that. You make it sound very simple about acknowledging & ignoring the pain & are very lucky that it fades. Have u ever wondered what it must be like for someone to do that time & time again only to have the pain increase. What it must be like to feel the bewilderment of "why isn't it working for me"?
I have not wondered, I have felt it myself. I saw Dr. Sarno in 2002 and spent a long time at war with TMS, winning some battles, losing others. It took years for the reconditioning process to lead to a point where the pain became insignificant in my life.
I understand you are having a difficult time, and I sympathize. However, it seems to me as if you are overthinking things and focused on the symptoms. In my opinion this phrase is a sign that despite your best attempts, there is still an underlying sense of fear and doubt that is interfering with your ability to make a full commitment.
quote:
How do I truly know my pain is not physical & that I'm not going to further damage myself.
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Aussie
Australia
87 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2013 : 04:14:46
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| Wise words Dave and you are very lucky you got to see Sarno. Out of curiosity when your symptoms started to fade where you 100% sure that all your symptoms were Tms? In other words did you have to ignore MRI findings or any abnormalities in your back? Reason I'm asking is that despite being sure my pain is Tms, my mind immediately thinks of my bulging disc when the pain increases dramatically. Like Mala I also find myself being 100% sure to not so sure at other times. What does it take to break the last remaining fears? I appreciate your response. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2013 : 08:51:12
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Of course I had all of my symptoms checked out by an orthopedic surgeon to rule out any serious problem. This made it easier to ignore the pain.
If you still believe a bulging disc might cause pain, then I'm afraid you have not yet reached a point where you truly accept TMS. Dr. Sarno believes these kinds of MRI findings are typically benign. Our discs are designed to herniate and bulge: they are doing their job as the shock absorbers of the spine. If there is in fact a pathological condition where a disc is impinging a nerve, the symptom will be numbness and not pain.
Modern medicine has wonderful technology and many new diagnoses that did not exist a decade ago, to label symptoms when the cause is not truly known. As I've said in the past -- if it ends in "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and the doctors cannot find the cause, it is probably TMS. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2013 : 09:52:19
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Mala, so what do you think of all this??? You've had many carefully thought out answers to your questions, now and over the years you've asked for help here. What are your thoughts, what are you going to do with this information from here??
==================================================
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
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"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Dr. Sarno is now retired, if you call this number you will be referred to his associate Dr. Rashbaum.
"...there are so many things little and big that are tms, I wouldn't have time to write about all of them": Told to icelikeaninja by Dr. Sarno
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2013 : 09:50:10
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| Oh Mala where are you??? What do you think about the responses you've been given??? |
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andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2013 : 11:58:36
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Hi Mala,
This is a first-hand example of my own experience with this difficult area.I hope it helps.
This summer I was on my main windsurfing trip for the year on the Sacramento Delta. After many days of planning and preparation I was to meet friends to windsurf in some of the best winds in California. I was excited, elated and very happy.
The day before my friends were to arrive I developed a tooth ache, in fact it was a root canal with pain peaking every hour or so with the pain increasing and getting my full attention. I am an expert at root canals having nurtured one for four months while waiting for dental insurance to kick in. So I knew with FEAR that this was a real root canal!
Psychologically I was a basket case. My trip was going to be ruined and in a panic I called my wife Sheila to discuss coming home 300 miles to see our Dentist. This meant cancelling my windsurfing and missing the best winds of the year. I could imagine the procedure taking place with considerable accuracy, the shots the drilling and the long session with those little files. I also knew this meant drilling through an existing crown, as I have said I am an expert!
I tried to fathom out which tooth hurt. Strangely I could not decide which tooth was bothering me, was it a top or bottom tooth? I prodded and poked my mouth and with surprise found out it was opposite to where I thought it was. My train of thought then turned to thinking it might be TMS. Wow - some TMS pros might say: “What took you so long”. I took a Tylenol PM and the pain disappeared by the following morning and never came back. It was not a root canal but merely a tooth made sore by crunching the grain of whole wheat bread. I had indeed bothered the nerve.
I wish the discovery had been the two seconds that Dave spoke of, but it wasn’t. This TMS pain had crept up over a week so that I would not notice. The TMS gremlin knew this windsurfing trip was important to me and how fearful I was to miss it. This was a new area of pain for me, I was caught unawares and TMS also knew this. The TMS gremlin also knew of my emphatic view point on root canals and how stubborn I was with these ideas.
Looking back I am grateful this happened, it was a great opportunity to review a pain, as events like this one in new areas very rare. This one gave me the opportunity to review TMS. It gave me the chance to confirm and reflect my belief in TMS. The pain was definitely physical, Dr. Sarno would say “intimidating”. It was my psychological and catastrophising fear that kept it in my thinking brain. Thinking psychologically did the trick to dispel it. In my opinion Mala, any pain even a minor paper cut, has the potential to attract TMS. Therefore it’s always 100% TMS until proved otherwise with substantial evidence.
Remember my Three Pees posting I categorize this post contents under “Personality” and my worrying trait that I have. Are you a woryier Mala?
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7787&SearchTerms=Three,pees
Acknowledgement: "TMS Gremlin" - Tennis Tom
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years, is almost gone.
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
Edited by - andy64tms on 10/03/2013 13:31:27 |
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Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2013 : 15:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by andy64tms
It was not a root canal but merely a tooth made sore by crunching the grain of whole wheat bread. I had indeed bothered the nerve.
Andy:
Stay away from those carbs! |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2013 : 19:36:57
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Hi TT, I'm here , I'm here!. Had a very busy 2 days. One with first cousins I had never met in my life & who had come all the way from Cleveland Ohio & then another day with a dear friend who was transiting in HK for 15 hrs on her way back to NZ (while nursing a headache).
To answer your question quickly ( I'll reply in detail later) I am still treating my symptoms like TMS. I need to focus on the reconditioning & fear aspects more.
Andy, sooooooooo good to hear from you & am so pleased u r still enjoying yr windsurfing. Apart from the tooth pain how have u been? Pls we want an update. Also if I may ask why so long to take the tylenol?
Aussie its comforting to know thatI am not the only one who has doubts I think its only human.
Peregrinus- wise words indeed!
Will post in detail later. Got some things to do.
Take care all.
Mala
"It is more important to know what sort of person has a disease than to know
what sort of disease a person has." ~ Hippocrates (460-377 B.C.)
Mala Singh Barber on Facebook |
Edited by - mala on 10/03/2013 19:55:43 |
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Cath
116 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2013 : 04:23:17
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Hi Mala
I can identify totally with what you're saying, because I know this is also my problem. I think, for me, just one blessed hour, or even one minute without pain would help me to really accept that all of my symptoms are TMS. Dave was spot on - I am always seeking proof.
Of course, it doesn't help that I am a constant worrier, as Andy suggested, and I catastrophize and over-analyse - typical TMS traits. So why can't I just take that final leap of total faith? Is this not something I ever do? Am I always questioning, doubting? Sometimes I am so sure that it's TMS, but I know that it can't be deeply felt because my symptoms don't let up. But, I really have nowhere else to go, because the medical profession can't offer a cure. And that's what I'm seeking. |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2013 : 05:16:15
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Cath you hit the nail on the head when you said it’s about taking a leap of faith. I have had many people ask me why I am not recovered yet considering how long I’ve been here & some seem to sound impatient when I ask or post as if I really don’t want to get better. They all want me to believe as if it were some kind of religion. And then I realized that that’s exactly what it is. After reading the success stories many times both on this forum & the TMS wiki I have to say that those who have succeeded are the ones who have had complete faith or those who have worked at believing & by working I mean affirmations, reconditioning and all. And in some cases it’s been sheer pigheadedness. It really all boils down to the power of the mind, the power of suggestion & how much you want to get well.
It is no different from any other placebo effect. If u believe you will get better, you will. If you believe that there is nothing structurally wrong, you will get better. Just as in ‘white coat syndrome’. Many people’s BP increases when they see the doctor in anticipation of perhaps some bad news. In the same way if the white coat guy tells u there is nothing wrong well then the relief alone is enough to make u feel better. NOCEBO & PLACEBO!
Don’t get me wrong; there is nothing wrong with this. I would give anything to get better to be pain free but my mind is one of those that asks too many questions much to my own detriment.
I personally did not have any pain for the first 40 years of my life so yes I do struggle with the idea & have doubt.
I think the way I will approach my recovery is to accept what Dr Schubiner has said that there is nothing serious and use that as my starting point. Some people like myself are perhaps more sensitive to pain, are prone to catastrophising , think about it too much.
I need to stop that. I need to believe that my body is strong & that I can heal.
I will take painkillers when I need them instead of fighting against it coz it only makes it worse. If I can get relief from taking some paracetamol occasionally to break the pain cycle, I will. A lot of research has shown that the longer the body is in chronic pain, the more it affects the mind too, becomes a vicious cycle. There’s no common sense in trying to ‘brave the pain’ It just screws the mind, causes more panic in my case anyway.
I will change the way I think about the pain using some simple affirmations that I truly believe will help. I do not believe just saying a bunch of words you don’t really mean works at all especially if your subconscious is as tricky & smart as Sarno says it is.
Read the success stories over & over coz that really helps.
Will continue to stretch because I think it’s a completely ridiculous idea that stretching is going to affect recovery.
Do deep breathing & some meditation. That’s my strategy.
Mala
"It is more important to know what sort of person has a disease than to know
what sort of disease a person has." ~ Hippocrates (460-377 B.C.)
Mala Singh Barber on Facebook |
Edited by - mala on 10/04/2013 05:22:34 |
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Cath
116 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2013 : 06:41:18
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Mala - your thinking is just like mine. Sometimes I wonder what the mystical "something" is that everybody who recovers seems to get, and that I don't. I have tried to explore a more spiritual way of thinking, because this seems to be the elusive "something" that is missing, but my rational brain always kicks in, and ends my fantasy. Maybe I just need to simply "trust"? Because faith, is simply "trust" or "confidence". These are two things that I know are weaknesses of mine.
I understand what you're saying about the "placebo" effect. And, from a rational point of view, that seems to be a good explanation. My chronic pain began when I was 49 (5 years ago), but I have had migraine since I was just 9 years old. I have only once averted a migraine by willing it to stop at the first signs, which in my case, were an aura of bright lights. So, I know that our minds are powerful in effecting cures. I have often thought that my current pain is a constant migraine that I can't switch off, and is running riot throughout the rest of my body.
For myself, I am just trying to make the most of my life, such as it is. I am slowly making small improvements, but there is no grand cessation of pain for me. Maybe one day I will be able to post a success story. There is always hope, and is this not what faith is too? |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2013 : 08:54:20
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quote:
Originally posted by mala
It is no different from any other placebo effect.
"Placebo" is an inaccurate description of TMS recovery. It implies the condition is real, and the treatment deceives the patient into believing the condition is cured. TMS is about characterizing the condition in a totally different way and accepting that the symptoms are manufactured by the brain.
This may seem like a subtle distinction, but in my opinion it is important. Recovery from TMS requires changes at an unconscious level. Anything we believe at the conscious level that contradicts the notion that the symptoms are psychogenic is detrimental to the reconditioning process.
quote:
Will continue to stretch because I think it’s a completely ridiculous idea that stretching is going to affect recovery.
It depends on why you are stretching. Do you believe stretching is part of an exercise program to improve overall health and well being? Or do you believe (even subconsciously) that the stretching alleviates the pain? If it is the latter, then it is contradictory to TMS recovery.
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Cath
116 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2013 : 09:26:36
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I used to stretch daily, sometimes for an hour at a time. Long, slow stretches, just because it felt good at the time. It took me months to wean myself off that. It was another addiction, and I also realised that it was making me focus far too much on the pain, which in turn seemed to amplify it.
I started reading instead, just to divert my attention, and try to shut out the internal chatter. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2013 : 11:29:12
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quote:
Originally posted by mala
I would give anything to get better to be pain free but my mind is one of those that asks too many questions much to my own detriment.
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Page 135 Steven Ray Ozanich "THE GREAT PAIN DECEPTION":
"Dr. Sarno points out that the fact that so many thousands of people heal through reading his books is proof that the TMS process is not a placebo. There's no physical interjection or personal interaction of any kind in in the healing process. So it's not the mere belief that heals people from chronic pain, it's also an UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROCESS. When the physician explains to the sufferer exactly what is occurring, he is in essence taking away any placebo effect. I believe that Dr. Sarno would agree that this was one of his most amazing findings regarding TMS--in explaining how the pain process works, his patients began to heal."
===========================================================
Mala, I agree with your above statement, "your mind" does ask too many questions. Your problem may be that you're out the door before your subconscious can "get" the answers that so many have taken the time to give you over the years.
TMS has nothing to do with religion as a few have confused it with it. You can believe in a religion, you can believe you're an agnostic, you can believe you're an atheist. TMS healing has to do with understanding Dr. Sarno's simple theory, and believing that's what's going on.
I would recommend you read SteveO's book, it may connect the TMS dot's for you.
G'luck!
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Edited by - tennis tom on 10/04/2013 11:30:33 |
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andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2013 : 11:56:59
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Peregrinus,
Carbs have got a bad name! The fact is the body relies on both fat and carbs for fuel at different levels depending on the activity level. I have an underweight problem and considered lucky by some. Last year I lost so much weight during the windsurfing season, I was concerned and posted here about it here, and I had dropped 12 lbs in weight to and looked like a frog. It was Marla who set me straight with her BMI tables, thanks Marla. So I need both carbs and fat for my long windsurfing sessions, and you can’t beat crunchy nine grain bread (not the white stuff) for appeasing hunger.
Mala,
I am well, but we have a serious cancer in the family and an upcoming surgery this month. This is why I haven’t posted since March. This makes my little TMS issues a walk in the park. I can’t post about it here.
Cath,
Our muscles stretch and contract all day. We stretch as we work, exercise or do Yoga. So for me stretching isn’t bad in itself, however when I used to stretch specifically for pain relief like habitually cracking my neck for pain relief, I was acknowledging the pain and giving it credibility. I think it was Dave who pointed this out. Thanks Dave.
When I do Yoga, lift weights and windsurf etc. I am acknowledging fun and feeling good. I have to admit when I read your “Long Slow stretches” I felt very good as it reminded me of my Yoga class. Stretching is a difficult area since it can be likened to “treatment”, so I hope I am not kidding myself.
Cath, have you considered focusing on reading as a diversion while you stretch? This would be similar to those elliptical machines with TV’s at my gym - distraction while exercising.
Did anyone ever see the video of Franz Reichelt jumping from the Eiffel Tower? It hurts the soul to watch! His belief took him to such an extreme act - he did not understand the dangers and aerodynamics. This act added to the pool of education that now allows people to parachute now days. As TT says it’s the “understanding” that makes a belief possible.
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years, is almost gone.
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
Edited by - andy64tms on 10/04/2013 12:00:09 |
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Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2013 : 20:10:09
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quote:
Originally posted by andy64tms
you can’t beat crunchy nine grain bread (not the white stuff) for appeasing hunger.
Andy:
Metabolically there is no difference between whole grains and white sugar. Sure whole grains have fiber but fiber provides no benefits but it does increase insulin levels. Both whole grains and white sugar are converted into glucose which causes your insulin levels to rise. Insulin is a stress hormone that causes inflammation of the arteries and other bad things.
There are people who rapidly burn-up fat stores and have trouble maintaining normal weight. I was like that until I graduated from college. If you are wind surfing you must be feeling good and don’t need any advice. I wouldn’t know what to tell you anyway. Good to see you posting again.
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back to basics
