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RageSootheRatio
Canada
430 Posts |
 Posted - 12/14/2012 : 11:05:03
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Ace1 wrote (on another thread which I didn't want to hijack):
quote:
I actually think everything except trauma and infection is actually an equivalent of TMS.
I'm really interested in this idea, because lately I have been experiencing a LOT more symptoms of various kinds (headaches, hyperarousal, IC, tingling/numb hands and feet etc). I'm pretty sure they are just stress symptoms because I am in a highly stressful life situation (time-limited).
However I'm not SURE they are TMS and sometimes my FEAR that something might be seriously wrong is making things worse. I know the first "rule" is to get things checked out, but if most everything other than trauma and infection *is* actually TMS, then ... ?
I COULD go to the doctor now, and start down the road of tests of various kinds, but I think that probably wouldn't be all that helpful because it would just add more stress (because I find any medical testing highly stressful.) Well, at least it would add stress for me over over the short term. In the longer term I guess things could be less stressful for me, knowing anything "serious" had been ruled out.
I know my life situation at the moment is exceedingly stressful, but it will likely be resolved in the next few weeks and so I was thinking it would make more sense to wait before I see my GP, and in the meantime, focus on Ace's "keys to healing" and see how I am in month's time. But, I am still uncertain ...
But if everything other than trauma and infection is TMS, then maybe waiting IS still the best strategy (?) Even if something "real" is wrong, then practicing more acceptance, ease, etc is still the best course of action for the next month (?)
any thoughts on this?
RSR
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2012 : 17:14:09
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| I am reluctant to say this because so many people here know so much more than I do, but my personal opinion is that there are some folks who attribute to TMS problems that are genuinely physical, for lack of a better differentiating term. I think one's emotional health still plays a huge role in almost any illness, even trauma and infection, but I think we have to be careful of overattribution. Put another way, and it's just my uninformed opinion, I think some lists of so-called TMS equivalents are just too long. For exanple, in athletics, I think there can in fact be injuries from chronic (nontraumatic) overuse or biomechanical problems. I think it's tempting to generalize when we have discovered something that works for us, and to assume the same method will apply to all people and all issues, but I am not sure that is sound. |
Edited by - pspa123 on 12/15/2012 17:15:35 |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2012 : 20:16:23
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Pspa,
How do you come up with your conclusions? There is no way you can come up with this conclusion unless you are a medical professional seeing many, many sick people. Seeing many sick people is not enough also, you must really understand tms and have recovered from it to see. Unless you meet the above two criteria I do not think you can make a conclusion on what is tms related or not. No disrespect, but I know that I would not have known what I know today if I did not meet these criteria.
Now to rsr question, just bc something is tension related, which I told you is probably everything, but trauma and occasional infection, it doesn't mean its not dangerous. So , you know heart disease, strokes, blood clots can cause someone to die. Sometimes we do need medical intervention to help us stabilize the illness enough as to be able to buy us time as to work on our minds correctly. To be honest there will se some folks who never understand how to fix the tension in their lives even though they understand the tms theory perfectly well. Just bc someone doesn't known how to fix the tension in their lives does not mean their illnesses are not tension related. To make a long story short, it seems that you have already seen the link between your highly stressful situation and your symptoms. I would say get checked out to make sure nothing serious is happening (more severe form of tms). If cleared go 100% using the keys to recovery I posted and watch the symptoms fade. |
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eric watson
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2012 : 21:08:32
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| i agree with ace |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2012 : 21:11:20
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| never mind -- not worth pursuing |
Edited by - pspa123 on 12/15/2012 21:57:16 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2012 : 21:41:47
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| never mind -- not worth pursuing |
Edited by - pspa123 on 12/15/2012 21:57:38 |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 05:35:45
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Although I mostly agreed with Ace1's theory, I affraid that people reading Ace's post above would hesitate to share their experience or opion here for fear of being not "qualify".
I'm sure Ace is trying to help as many as he can here.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 06:21:54
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| Good point balto, everyone is entitled to their point of view and I agree fully. I don't want to suppress people's opinion. Now unfortunetly, in this case I think it might prevent many people from working on their minds when they are ill and they may fully just use the conventional mode of treating themselves. This is why in this case I had to have a strong rebuddle and say how I know what I know and why. I am not saying I know it all bc I want to be able to understand how to make the treatment of the mind more effective for more people. It was hard for me to overcome my illness, knowing this I know someone really has to put 100% into recovery. I think I told you before that I feel the recovered person is more qualified than any doctor. Also look at what I said, I never said someone had to be a doctor, they just have to seen a lot of sick people (which is what I meant by medical professional), understand their social history, understand tms and have recovered. No qualifications here, just experience to see only where my conclusion came from. Even dr Sarno agreed with me that everything illness wise is related. Let me ask you a question, let's say i just started in learning how to fix cars, and you are a guy who worked on cars all your life and you had fixed everything before successfully (just more experienced not more intelligent or not better in any way). Now a neighbor has a car that stopped working and I tell them something like your car is no good now, time to get a new one, you on the other hand when seeing the vehicle see that I am not experienced enough to see that the car is fixable. You have two choices, you keep your mouth shut, or you say something. Now if you do say something how will the owner of the car know whom to believe? You would have to say, that I have done this a million times, this takes experience to understand. This is nothing against the other opinion, but you have to make your argument strong and convincing that it is the truth. Now the owner of the care will never know who is right unless she follows your advice, but you hope she does. I as an inexperienced mechanic, when i learn the truth, hopefully can now can help people because I have learned. There is only one real truth which hopefully we can make more people aware. I hope this makes sense. |
Edited by - Ace1 on 12/16/2012 06:26:08 |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 06:57:03
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One more point TMS is not really logically especially in our society. Therefore to demise that TMS cannot apply to most illnesses, although logical, is not true. I want everyone to think about this, would you have ever known your initial illness was tension related had not someone clued you in to the fact? I'm sure te answer is no. Did you know that Charles Darwin suffered from TMS and no one could help him? Here is a genius, who couldn't help himself. I know dr Sarno is a genius to have seen and understood this, but he even needed help to see this in the beginning. It all started when someone clued him in to the fact that his migraines were tension related.  |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 07:48:08
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In my opinion, whether or not I am entitled to have one, it is rarely useful to defend one's ideas by telling the person questioning them that they have no right to do so. It's essentially circular reasoning -- I'm right because I know more than you do. One should defend one's ideas on their merits, not by ad hominem attacks.
It is also in my opinion never a good thing for anyone -- especially a doctor -- to assume he or she has a monopoly on truth.
I do not doubt that most chronic pain has a psychogenic origin. I do, however, despite my lack of qualification, question whether that explanation can be expanded to all human ailments that are not the result of trauma or infection. For example, I believe that using that classification system, ace1 would postulate that cancer, other benign tumors, Alzheimer's, allergies, thyroid disease, adrenal insufficiency, hypogonadism, and ALS -- to name some -- are TMS equivalents and are caused by psychogenic issues. I would like to understand the evidence for that proposition. It also seems to me ace1's belief would exclude the possibility that poor lifestyle choices such as diet and lack of exercise, or environmental factors, play a role in chronic disease.
Are you really saying my brother's acoustic neuroma was TMS, for example? Or the ALS that struck down one of the most joyous, well-adjusted people I have ever known?
I respectfully -- and I mean that, as I value all you post here -- look forward to your answer. |
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mchan
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 08:33:00
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I am not qualified to say whether something is all TMS, because I am in no way a medical professional. I do not see patients day in and day out, so I cannot judge. As a lay person I find it hard to believe in the day we live in with nutritional deficient food, careless lifestyle choices, and the environmental pollution, that everything is TMS but infection and trauma, but it could be! I do believe stress/psychological is a root cause of many things because it does weaken your immune system.
For years I really believed all my issues were caused by the bad diet I grew up on. I was a poor child and was raised on very poor quality sugar laden food and ended up with a nasty sugar addiction in my early adult years. I also found out I was allergic to wheat and dairy. Since I was a baby I had multiple digestion issues. When I totally changed my diet to all natural, nothing out of a can or box, no refined sugar/ no grains/ no wheat I felt tons better in many ways. I use to have terrible fatigue during the afternoons, arthritis is my hands, pins and needles in my arms and legs, blurry vision, muscle twitching in my legs, and many other explainable symptoms all before the age 30 years old, that did in fact all go away when I lost weight and totally changed my diet. I was hoping this would take away my IC as well, but it did not. This is my worst symptom.
This is what set me on this journey to find mind body/TMS, I knew there was something missing. I believe diet has a large role in how we feel as well as psychological especially when we already have emotional issues/stress. This is my personal experience anyway. I do know one thing though; I have friends and older family members that have eaten terribly for many years, who did NOT have any of the health issues I had (yet at least). I thought to myself, WHY can they eat just as bad as I did and not get all these weird symptoms? Well, the answer I believe lies in their emotional health/Stress/personality. I believe I could have handled the bad diet - my body could have handled it much better if I had not grown up in major emotional stress/trauma. So, my ROOT cause was all TMS and possibly food allergies that I was born with, but because of the trauma my immune function was also not up to par. This made the diet necessary for me to get to a place where I could function. The diet is not the real issue though, but it was needed for me because my immune function was so bad I believe I was headed for cancer or any number of things had I not changed my diet when I did.
*I know food allergies can be TMS, but I believe I was born allergic to milk and wheat. My mother said as a small baby I was always having terrible digestion issues and ear infections. I grew up as a child thinking it was normal to have your whole body bloat up after you eat, and have stomach pain. It was not until I was an adult and was able to provide medical care to myself that I got tested and found I was allergic.
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Love Wins. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 08:34:31
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Pspa
I first want to say that how can I show you what I see unless you work along side me? Your opinion is either correct or false, so I asked you the basis of your opinion. My defense was based on experience which I think is a merit There was no specific attack but a question on to why you think your right. I then offered my opinion that one cannot see that the mind being the basic cause of most illnesses unless they meet the two criteria above. My goal is to help, not hurt and I also want to help you pspa. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I have noticed that you posts in this forum have a angry tone to them and I am sure this has something to do with your illness. I bring this up to you to help you, not attack you and hopefully point you to the right direction. I want to explain to you why and how I know what I know, but to be honest it may take a book to explain it bc there is so much and i really can't write it here yet at least not right now. Let me just say for example in cancer it behaves exactly as tms does and i have seen someone cure themselves from it by psychotherapy. In regards to your brother, strain is usually passed down in families and is is very common for the family members to develop illness, usually similar to other members, but sometimes different due to their genetic makeup and different life experiences. In terms of your well adjusted friend, you did not know how he strains mentally inside so you cannot make a conclusion on that bc you are not him. In terms of lifestyle changes and disease, I think they play a small role, but tms can use this in its own way ie make food as a form of psychological comfort thus leading to weight gain, then leading to higher risk cad etc etc. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 08:36:38
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| Mchan is right, you can tolerate more when emotionally sound |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 09:06:11
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Ace1, respectfully, you keep wanting to make this about me. It isn't. I'm not angry, I am intellectually curious about the proposition you have advocated, and with all due respect you aren't addressing what I am asking you. Instead of answering the question you are focusing on the questioner.
Let's try it a different way. Suppose you were asked to defend your theory at an academic conference, where you were trying to convince a group of physicians that ALS is caused by unresolved emotional conflict. What would you say to them? Put another way, is all the research going into the "medical" causation of ALS a waste of time?
PS I know a doctor who has the extreme theory that most human illness is caused by mercury, and he has some truly bizarre methods of allegedly treating it. I believe it's all placebo. I can't have a meaningful dialogue with him either, because any time I question him, I just get back, I know it based on clinical experience which you don't have. Ipse dixit is not proof.
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Edited by - pspa123 on 12/16/2012 09:15:40 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 09:08:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
Mchan is right, you can tolerate more when emotionally sound
I absolutely believe that, my questioning is more to do with causation. |
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mchan
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 09:29:20
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Ace: Do you have a list of normal doctors that you advocate? I would love to see a doctor for my general health that has your perspective. I am in the chicagoland suburbs.
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Love Wins. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 09:37:41
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This is a good discussion that will lead to TMS truth. I don't think PSPA123, has sounded angry though. Ace may be confusing him with others (never me of course). No biggy (except to those involved personally)--it's the gremlin just attempting to shroud the TMS truth. I've done the same mixing up my "Walnuts" with my "Whoadays". No worries, it's just an internet message board, all the noises soon to drop-off the bottom of the page, stratifying below with Austin Gary's.
Carry on. |
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Jilly
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 09:47:00
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Interesting topic..I found some information in Dr. Sarno's book The Divided Mind. There seems to be correlations with infections and TMS in the patient case histories.
p.231
"Ms D' a 27 year old single woman came for an appointment, she said she had been suffering pain in the left low back. In addition to the pain she suffered from spring allergies, sinus pressures, headaches behind the eyes, urinary tract infections, vertigo, and most recently spastic colon. We have found these are all TMS equivalents, serving the same purpose as TMS."
p. 236
Ms G a 46 year old woman - "Further questioning revealed she had a history of sinus infections, earache, TMJ, headache, and IBS. As noted these are all TMS equivalents."
p. 29
"A paper published in The New England Journal of Medicine in 1993 entitled "Neuroendocrine-Immune Interactions" concluded with this statement: Central nervous system influences on the immune system are well documented and provide a mechanism by which emotional states could influence the course of disease involving immune function. Whether emotional factors can influence the course of autoimmune disease, cancer, and infections in humans is a subject of intense research that has not been resolved at this time" |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 09:52:51
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| Mchan I wish I knew, I don't. I 'm sorry. Pspa. I wasn't trying to turn it on you. I just meant that your posts in general had an angry feel to them to me, I know from self experience with myself. I thought this before this topic but I didn't know how you would receive it, so I never said anything before. I would like to turn the question you posed to me on the tms theory in general about pain. Do you think most doctors would buy dr sarnos rebuttal? I really don't think so. The reason I am not answering your question very specifically is as I said before it would take me to write a book like healing back pain, but I just can't do that on this forum now. I gave you a couple reasons breifly why i think the way i do. Being too analytical about this tms stuff is actually counter productive. The mercury stuff is absolutely placebo and it doesn't even make any sense. Good luck to you |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 10:06:43
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| One more point, once you heal you will be more receptive to what I'm saying. Well touch on the subject again in the future |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 11:07:09
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I am once again suggesting that this type of discussion become its own forum Think of what the first time visitor to this page sees?
In fact, when i have referred people to his site, because it really is helpful, I have told them to ignore the intramural fighting that goes on, seemingly on and ever-increasing basis.
If I saw this interchange I would say these people are seeing the trees in the forest but not the forest, and this would be of no help to me.
There is no way of knowing this negative, but I wonder how many people have scanned these pages and observed everybody chained to their tree and claiming it does not belong in the forest and then moving on to a site that does not even consider psychogenic causes for illness.
My great disappointment with some of the "mindbody" practitioners out there is that they offer you the explanation that you have a psychogenic generated physical problem, and then say "work on it mentally". Okay, yes, that is what you have to do. But so few will produce even a simple anatomy chart and tell you that, because you have "tense" muscles you can experience pain and stiffness not only in the muscle but in far off parts of the body. Or they won't explain what IBS is exactly, or that chronic headaches can be caused by postural muscles and not something inside the head. In other words, they go to the opposite extreme that the allopathic doctor that finds only the structural or searches for the missing pathogen. The Mindbody practitioner is guilty of divorcing the mind and the body, too. This may be why the "stuck" are stuck.
Then, when people are finally convinced that the mind is causing the problem, they do not understand what their body is doing while resuming "normal activity", and the fear starts again.
The MindBody practitioner has to lay hands on the patient and explain and show, not just tell.
I digress: there really needs to be a separate forum for discussing the philosophy of MindBody as to not scare away those who really need to see helpful discussion, not doctors dismissing honest questions and posters getting in a snit.
I'm spitting into the wind here, because there does not seem to be any support to moving these type of discussions. God help the person in extreme pain here who first reads some discussion like this, because God knows this discussion will not.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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TMS = everything except Trauma & Infection ...(?)
