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pspa123
672 Posts |
 Posted - 12/16/2012 : 12:28:04
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| Ace1 I agree most doctors would not buy into psychogenic theories of chronic pain either. I have met plenty. And it isn't hard for me to understand that certain "functional syndromes" to use Dr. Arthur Barsky's language, where there are no objective abnormalities either on physical exam or bloodwork, can have psychogenic origin. I am with you there. What I am having a hard time with, and I appreciate that you don't want to continue the dialogue and that's fine, is how one makes the leap from there to illnesses with clearly identifiable pathologies and abnormalities that you can see by tissue biopsies or scans or blood tests, etc. That seems a rather startling proposition a quantum leap beyond Dr. Sarno's (and Dr. Barsky's) views and I simply wanted to understand it -- not out of anger, but out of intellectual curiosity. In any case, I wish you a peaceful day, and if I was the instigator of an unhelpful discussion, my apologies. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 13:00:50
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| No anything that is helpful to you or anyone is definitely important. The last question I will pose you with to think about is the following. Yes things like cancer are usually biopsy proven, but what is the basic cause? The answer by most MDs is "unknown", that doesn't prove that is psychogenic in nature. I work with cancer daily and it behaves just like tms and responds to conventional treatments the same way. Most cancer patients have similar personalities and cancer pain is 100% tms. Some people with cancer all over their bodies have no pain at all and others with very minimal cancer with severe pain. Like I said dr sarno actually agreed with me, but did not mention this to me till I brought it up first, due to fear of being chastised. I wish you the best and I hope you find healing soon |
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SteveO
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 13:50:58
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I agree Ace number 1. I'm having this same discussion right now with a couple of TMS docs. Some believe cancer is TMS, and others won't say, and the minority don't think cancer is TMS. But most cancers certainly are TMS, or from a strong emotional force that has not been properly expressed, living outside of awareness.
Of course some cancers come from poisons to the system; smoking, asbestos, radiation, UV, etc. But don't these things anger the system? They may damage it quicker than the system can repair itself. But they could also be triggers.
Before I published anything on cancer being TMS I spoke with some well known specialists and they have no doubt that many expressions of cancer come from unconscious conflict. I think it's easily observable in Phase 4 TMS.
Dr. Sarno did the same thing with me, he didn't mention it until I did, he didn't want to be further attacked. But he knows many cancers are from TMS, or the mindbody syndrome. Getting Well Again was one of the best books I read. The Will to Live was the best.
But since ACE is a person with clinical experience, his observation is more relative.
TMS covers a much wider scope than most people think. I had, and personally witnessed, infections brought on by fear. I also receive emails from people who have rid their infections from my book. I cited Andrew Weil where he said not everyone exposed to malaria gets it, only those whose immune systems were compromised by strong emotions.
The only things that aren't 'easily' attributable to TMS are congenital disorders or injuries. But are congenital disorders not TMS? The sins of the father. It all depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. I read a post from Balto by a Buddhist monk, and he talked about karma, and how errant thinking can come back around to you in this life, from the past.
You can't separate philosophy from a mindbody discussion. The philosophy we base our lives on determines our health. If your philosophy is that your body is broken or flawed, then it adapts to match that perception of your environment, as with herniated discs. It's all part of the TMS discussion.
The rabbit hole deepens if you dig deeper. Shallow thinking yields no results, and therefore no change.
Steve |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 14:07:23
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| Steve I have though about the sins of the father for congenital problems I didn't want to go too deep with this which is why I didn't mention it |
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Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 14:49:30
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Have any diseases or pathological symptoms been proven to be psychogenic? Sarno and perhaps other TMS practicioners have a lot of case files that would probably convince most skeptics that chronic back pain is psychogenic but this is not really a proof. What is needed is a multidimensional study that does a blind comparison between surgery, treatment with drugs, TMS therapy, a placebo, and no treatment. Who would fund such a study? That is why it will never happen. For those of us who are convinced that some symptoms are psychogenic our only course is to learn how these psychogenic pathologies can be treated and then to share our experiences.
Before entering this forum I was convinced that chronic lower back pain was psychogenic. Now I suspect the spectrum of such disorders is considerably larger. I do however believe that sometimes your feet hurt because your shoes are too small.
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 15:11:08
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Peregrinus you raise a very interesting issue which is how do we know that theories that aren't really susceptible of testing, or proof beyond anecdotal evidence, are true? For example I have no doubt that Ace1 and SteveO have acquired a great deal of wisdom on their journeys and sincerely believe that most illness, not just chronic pain, is TMS. But that isn't proof. As I mentioned earlier, I know someone, a very well-educated and experienced physician, who is absolutely convinced that most human illness is due to disruption of the body's normal energy flows and cellular communication by mercury. But his ipse dixit obviously isn't proof either; and neither are the hundreds of case reports in his files. My suspicion is that those reports suffer from a great deal of confirmation bias; and one could speculate that that might be true of many case reports in many settings.
One problem I have, I think, is that my professional training and my scientific bias lead me to want proof in most situations, especially where ideas and theories seem counterintuive or at least contrary to conventional thinking. But the reality is that in most cases there won't be any proof, nor is there any way to disprove the theory. Indeed, even where there are double blind studies, much has been written suggesting those studies are largely flawed. There is great work by Dr. John Ionnides (I may be spelling it wrong) on this subject.
So maybe one has to discard one's wish for proof and be guided more by faith, or common sense, or gut, or all of the above. Just some thoughts provoked by your post. My gut tells me that the mind plays a much larger role in human illness than conventional medicine would allow, but in my gut I am not yet convinced -- despite my respect for views to the contrary -- that it explains almost everything that ails us.
PS Please do not take it as a sign of anger or disrespect if I question anyone's views -- note that I am not disagreeing, just questioning. If I had taken at face value what I was told by most doctors and other practitioners, I would be taking drugs and working on my posture and having adjustments. People who are even at the point of learning about TMS only got that far because they developed the ability to question what they were told by people in positions of apparent authority and to form their own judgments. So it isn't realistic, in my view, to expect them simply to take new orthodoxies at face value. Speaking for myself, anyhow. |
Edited by - pspa123 on 12/16/2012 15:26:19 |
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jegol71
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 15:26:39
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Why die at all? What would the 100% emotionally transparent and peace-made entity look like? Immortal?
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 17:12:31
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quote:
Originally posted by mchan
...I was a poor child and was raised on very poor quality sugar laden food and ended up with a nasty sugar addiction in my early adult years.
Could you please expand on this area? |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2012 : 17:40:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
I am once again suggesting that this type of discussion become its own forum Think of what the first time visitor to this page sees?
B2It, I've advocated for a forum Reichian screaming room, but short of that, I don't think anyone suffering chronic pain, having stumbled on TMS, would be that turned off by the occasionally mildly heated academic type discussions here. The disagreements debated here pale to the antics and brawls at most internet sites that are routine and part of the "entertainment".
I don't think anyone in chronic pain comes here first. I think they would and should read one of Dr. Sarno's books, acquire some TMS "knowledge penicillin" fundamentals and then give it a go.
TMS patients form a very small part of TMS physician's practices, there just aren't enough folks in the general population interested in hearing about it.
TMS'ers are pretty much on their own because as Pogo says "We've found the enemy and it is us." A physician, even if he is TMS savvy, is not going to have the time to work, one on one, with a patient besides maybe an hour at the initial dx. After that the doctor may recommend a TMS psychotherapist for those needing to dig deeper to get it.
I think anyone can fix themselves if they read the books thoughtfully enough. But, if the solution to one's tension is a change of life-style, like getting a divorce, a physician is not going to be able to do that for you--not even a mindbody one. Somethings one has to do for themselves to resolve or to accept--resolution will make you happier in the long run. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 12/16/2012 18:03:17 |
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mchan
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2012 : 09:24:32
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Tennis Tom "...I was a poor child and was raised on very poor quality sugar laden food and ended up with a nasty sugar addiction in my early adult years."
I was just stating that I grew up in poverty. I had a single mother and I was often home alone from the age of 5 and up. We did not have money, so I often eat sugar..lots of sugar for every meal..fudge bars are easy for a 5 year old to open for dinner:) Sugar is very cheap compared to nutritional dense food. I did not even know what most vegetables where I remember I was embarrassed at a friends house because I did not know what they were serving for dinner..it was a vegetable! Anyway, when my Dad would abuse my mom before he left my mom would lock me in the bathroom with candy as well. So I grew to be addicted to it not only because its all I eat, but because I used it as a comfort. Eating it was the only time I felt "joy" or any type of happiness. This grew into a major addiction in adulthood after I quit drugs and smoking. I have overcome it though, I have not eaten any refined sugar in many months now. When I eat any sweet foods though, it still makes my TMS better for a few hours..but then worse the next day oddly.
The reason I brought that up in that post is I once believed ALL my health issues were because of my sugar addition, bad eating, nutritional deficiencies, ect. I saw a nutritional counselor and I was deficient in many things, I had to give myself shots of B12 and take supplements to restore deficiencies I had at the age of 30! When I quit eating bad a lot of symptoms did get better but not my major things which I finally have come to understand as TMS.
So, I hope that clarifies, if there is anything else you do not understand let me know!
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Love Wins. |
Edited by - mchan on 12/17/2012 09:28:19 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2012 : 09:37:33
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Yes thank you,
I like food for comforting my rage/soothe ratio also. Respectfully, I would attribute your (and most others) T personality traits more to the vicissitudes of your childhood then to nutrition. It sounds like you have a handle on it. Thanks for your background. Keep up the good work!
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod
=================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2012 : 10:36:14
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
I am once again suggesting that this type of discussion become its own forum Think of what the first time visitor to this page sees?
B2It, I've advocated for a forum Reichian screaming room, but short of that, I don't think anyone suffering chronic pain, having stumbled on TMS, would be that turned off by the occasionally mildly heated academic type discussions here. The disagreements debated here pale to the antics and brawls at most internet sites that are routine and part of the "entertainment".
I don't think anyone in chronic pain comes here first. I think they would and should read one of Dr. Sarno's books, acquire some TMS "knowledge penicillin" fundamentals and then give it a go.
TMS patients form a very small part of TMS physician's practices, there just aren't enough folks in the general population interested in hearing about it.
TMS'ers are pretty much on their own because as Pogo says "We've found the enemy and it is us." A physician, even if he is TMS savvy, is not going to have the time to work, one on one, with a patient besides maybe an hour at the initial dx. After that the doctor may recommend a TMS psychotherapist for those needing to dig deeper to get it.
I think anyone can fix themselves if they read the books thoughtfully enough. But, if the solution to one's tension is a change of life-style, like getting a divorce, a physician is not going to be able to do that for you--not even a mindbody one. Somethings one has to do for themselves to resolve or to accept--resolution will make you happier in the long run.
TT, I still think that a separate place to discuss the fine points would be helpful, but apparently I am in the minority.
As far as TMS doctors spending time with their clients after the initial dx, I have found that most are very willing with their time, but perhaps the patient has to be more educated. Maybe that is the real problem. The patient has to ask the right questions, such as why I have pain in the chest area when my back muscles are tense. However, for the most recognizable and popular cases of TMS/anxiety, a simple five minute explanation of what tense muscles do and will do when activity resumes, would help calm fear.
Who knows?
I believe most illnesses not caused by trauma or infection or some genetic misfire are emotion driven.
If only education could start young on this, think of all the suffering that could be avoided.
In another world, perhaps.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2012 : 19:05:53
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It's an interesting topic and Back2It could be right, perhaps a "debates" section could be created. However, I suppose healthy debate is
what led to TMS even being introduced to the mainstream in the first place. I was new to TMS... came here... saw bickering but still stuck
around because I knew the principles were rooted in truths.
I'll just add my two cents...
Ace,
You should write a book. You are one of the few practicing physicians out there who is a true believer in Sarno's work. You should
document and publish your history with this stuff so the public has more access to information. It would be invaluable.
-----
On the topic overall, I tend to believe most of the chronic pain and suffering that pains us is indeed emotional in origin. However, I'm probably
not prepared to go as far as Ace does in that I believe we also do much damage to ourselves via our lifestyles. (Diet, etc.)
I will say this, I do think we can get a little cult-like around here and just like mainstream med plugs their ears to TMS theory, this board
can be a little dismissive of anything that's not directly Sarno-related. As someone else pointed out, we also have a lot of people preaching
gospel here (and even writing books) about their own experience, and select people they've worked with. That's great, except for when it's not.
I came to this board and was basically told to ignore all things physical and solely focus on psychology. Well, it turns out that I've made big
strides by working on calming my physical symptoms using relaxation and physical strategies, which helped bring my nervous system
back to a more steady state. When your stress level is down and your SNS is operating closer to normal levels... the fear thoughts in your
brain naturally subside. So, I calmed myself physically to help my brain reduce its high-alert state... which allowed me to THEN work on
the psychology of normal living. (Where I do believe TMS principle can be very helpful, though perhaps not directly in the way Sarno draws it up.)
So, despite some folks advice around here to not try to "outthink" Sarno, I am much closer to normalcy today by not robotically following
the "hidden rage" model, rather... allowing those principles to seep into my overall recovery plan, which did include physical work.
Sorry, but it's the truth. Following the TMS gospel didn't work for me. When I re-worked it, it did.
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2012 : 19:20:00
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You know, I am probably opening myself up for a lot of criticism for saying this, but I am really sad to see this type of discussion on this forum. I participate in quite a few other support groups where this sort of thing is simply not tolerated, that is people with very strong, extreme opinions dominating conversations and virtually attacking others for their opinions. I am really sorry to see this here. I was hoping for better.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2012 : 19:42:21
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quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
I participate in quite a few other support groups..
Hi Chickenbone,
What other support groups do you participate in, just curious?
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2012 : 20:42:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SteveO
If your philosophy is that your body is broken or flawed, then it adapts to match that perception of your environment,
This sounded like "the Law of Attraction" isn't it?
You think shall you be.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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SteveO
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2012 : 18:09:19
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It does sound like it, but I didn't use it that way here. I was referring to Bruce Lipton and his discoveries in cell biology. He's shown that if you believe a certain way that your body will oblige you and adapt to match it. I liked the example he showed of The Rocketts. There was a photo of a 20 year old female, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 yo. You couldn't tell the difference between them all, their legs and bodies. They all thought young and stayed in motion so they hardly aged. When you slow down mentally and physically your body will adapt to match that state. If you expect pain, it comes.
I mentioned the law of attraction in my book, it's actually the law of Abraham, thousands of years old. Modern marketing has taken it and repackaged it and diminished it some. But the concept is interesting and been around forever. It's premise is that thinking does little, that it's how you feel or vibrate that pulls other matter to you. Sounds ok, but improvable, and yet its affects are here every day.
Steve |
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TMS = everything except Trauma & Infection ...(?)
