| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Peregrinus
250 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2012 : 13:34:09
|
Since the principal pathway of TMS is the autonomic nervous system (see Steven Ozanich’s book) which is also the mechanism by which our blood pressure (BP) is controlled one might leap to the conclusion that hypertension is a TMS symptom. Despite this and the fact that about 25% of the population suffer from hypertension there is at best scant mention of it in this forum. This surprising state of affairs is compounded by the fact that a chapter of Sarno’s most recent book was written by an expert (Dr. Mann) on the subject; an expert who would seem to have at best a grudging belief of the mind body hypothesis and who is only willing to concede that a small percentage of cases are psychogenic.
My BP has been slowly increasing all my adult life and about 8 years ago I started taking Toprolol at the insistence of my cardiologist. About two years ago I performed a little experiment: for thirty days I took my BP (with an electronic sphygmomaniometer) twice in a five minute interval. Then I stopped taking the Toprolol for two weeks and I repeated the procedure. I always measured after my daily bike ride and after cooling down and getting relaxed. There was no significant difference in the two sets of measurements. My doctor’s reaction was that I should keep taking the drug as it has other benefits (that he was unable to articulate).
About six months ago, when I decided to do something about my back pain relapse, I measured my BP three times in one day and found it to be about 160/90. This was around the time I was reading the latest Sarno book. I guess I was somewhat alarmed and after reading what Dr. Mann had to say I concluded that Toprolol was not the right medication (I was still taking it at that time). I also read a book by E. Tolle which caused me to try to lower my BP using the common deep breathing relaxation technique. I would first measure my BP and record the reading and then I would perform the relaxation technique followed by another measurement. I found that the systolic measurement was significantly lower on the second try while the diastolic reading was less significantly lower. The first reading would be about 160/90 while the second reading would sometime be in the ball park of 115/70!
Does this prove anything? Should I worry? Should I continue with the meds? Do any of the TMS techniques specifically apply to hypertension?
|
|
|
pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 14:29:35
|
| Your BP doesn't sound particularly alarming for what I am inferring may be your age. As I understand it hypertension is a multifactorial thing and can be high due to genetics, being overweight and out of shape, stress, and possibly other factors, so I am not sure it is a strictly TMS thing. But certainly stress level is a factor I have observed this in myself, I can lower mine somewhat just by closing my eyes and visualizing it dropping. |
 |
|
|
shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 14:36:59
|
| It appears to me that Dr. Mann is not fully convinced and makes a lot of exceptions. I also read his full length book on the topic. |
|
|
|
andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 18:45:02
|
Hi Pergrinus,
Regarding whether the blood pressure does anything or not, I can offer this:
I also experimented with my drug Lisiniprol 5 Mg, to find if it was effective or not. I stopped for about a month and continued to monitor daily in sets of three. I kept records in Excel, logging the time of day; as you probably know the paired readings vary up and down throughout the day, but sort of parallel each other.
At first my tests were inconclusive, like you I could not see any difference, the drug didn’t appear to lower my blood pressure, it seemed a waste of time. I wanted this to happen, but I wasn’t being fair to the test!
I try to be objective and use critical thinking, so I then took 120/80 and colored all the cells under these readings in green. Wow, it jumped out at me as the visual picture clearly demonstrated the drug works over the long haul, but was hard to see due to the daily fluctuation. My meter came with a chart that also alludes to this daily fluctuation.
Regarding your 160/90 and then 115/70 comment. My advice, take three consecutive readings. My first readings were always higher and I would ignore them completely due to anticipation and lack of relaxation. I found out they do parallel each other, but not always. This could depend on any number of factors, and I don’t think it proves anything.
Blood pressure for most people I believe goes up with age, maybe this is concurrent with the narrowing of the blood vessels or blockage due to cholesterol. My Dr. was pleased that I did the test and encouraged me to do them again whenever I needed. He insisted I stay on the drug for the long term benefits acknowledging that I marginally qualified, but didn’t elaborate, very precautionary don't you think?
Peregrinus, 160/90 is considered Hypertension stage1 is it not? I would be very alarmed if it was me for my normal is 120-139 / 80-89. I don’t want to breed and meme alarmism, but Hypertension is a major issue nicknamed: “The silent Killer”, not to be taken lightly.
Just for your comparison after viewing a nasty murder program my highest reading ever was 167/96. I was horrified and enlightened at this mind body event. These were my highest readings ever.
You can I believe do many things to reduce your BP, reduce salt, coffee, diet and exercise, but unless we retire to a monastery and become Buddhist monks we have to stay under the guidance of our other good doctors.
So here we are breaking TMS rules by monitoring and discussing our bodies to the nth degree. It’s OK as we both seem to agree its mind body. Dr. Mann may have a message you need to know, if he is included in Dr. Sarno’s book, I would prudently not dismiss him.
Hope this helps
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Back on Wiki Edu Program day 15
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years. (to be evicted later.)
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
Edited by - andy64tms on 12/10/2012 18:50:27 |
|
|
|
shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
|
|
shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
|
|
andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 20:25:05
|
Hi Shawnsmith,
I know, I have read argument about salt both ways, I can’t decide whose right. Just to be on the safe side I joined my wife on a no-salt (from the shaker) approach. Guess what? No problem food taste just as good to me, there is usually enough salt added by the food corps for taste enhancement. Similar arguments to the mono gluts added in food. I often had the problem of monitoring the amount of salt and used to over pour, it’s no longer a worry.
My practitioner told me to reduce my coffee intake from nine to four cups a day once, didn’t give a reason. With ease I decided to go into a holding pattern of four cups a day. I sometimes cheat, but that continual trip to the free-coffee-at-work-to-reduce-stress-and-get-re-invigorated is over. MSN had a pro coffee blog that made me feel better about drinking it. Thanks for yours.
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Back on Wiki Edu Program day 15
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years. (to be evicted later.)
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
Edited by - andy64tms on 12/10/2012 23:25:25 |
|
|
|
shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 06:53:29
|
Wow, 9 cups a day is way over the top. I drink at most 2 cups a day. If I drink more than that I am in the bathroom all quite frequently.
As for the reduced salt intake, there are very serious studies which indicate that reducing one's salt intake can be dangerous as our bodies need salt. As the NYT article indicates the link between salt and hypertension is rather weak regardless of what these doctors say. In fact, these doctors also embrace prevailing myths like the rest of us.
I say all this not to be argumentative, but only to point out that commonly held explanations behind a variety of symptoms don't have much scientific basis and actually can be harmful. |
|
|
|
kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 07:24:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Peregrinus
Since the principal pathway of TMS is the autonomic nervous system (see Steven Ozanich’s book) which is also the mechanism by which our blood pressure (BP) is controlled one might leap to the conclusion that hypertension is a TMS symptom. Despite this and the fact that about 25% of the population suffer from hypertension there is at best scant mention of it in this forum. sometime be in the ball park of 115/70!
Does this prove anything? Should I worry? Should I continue with the meds? Do any of the TMS techniques specifically apply to hypertension?
Slowly get rid of docs and meds ( alternatively find a nutritionist)
Do more of TMS work to get rid of the anxiety/hypertension . In time all else should fall in place . Take care of yourself, exercise, eat right find an outlet to relieve the tension, daily . Help someone in need,set realistic goals, deal with the emotional issues that you have been putting off or that trouble you for so long ... start to get better.
Sorry I do not know all your details and I dont mean to be a know it all but thats good recipe for anyone to start with
My Best
Kenny V
Always Hope For Recovery
|
|
|
|
Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 07:47:04
|
I read in one of the archived threads that hypertension is only a TMS symptom when you take your blood pressure (BP)!? I don’t get headaches or vertigo (now that I have stopped donating blood) so I’m only cognizant of my high BP when it is measured. A minute ago it was 126/86. What do you think Andy?
I stopped using salt ages ago but I suspect the cheese and cold cuts we eat have a fair amount of salt. When I stopped eating carbs about 12 years ago I noticed the BP went down a bit. Weather permitting I ride my bicycle about 2 hours a day and I’m trying to avoid stressful situations and thoughts.
One time I had 5-6 cups of coffee over a long lunch and my heart was racing all afternoon. It frightened me so that I stopped drinking coffee and started taking English Breakfast tea in the morning.
Thanks for the advice and encouragement!
|
|
|
|
pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 12:51:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
Wow, 9 cups a day is way over the top. I drink at most 2 cups a day. If I drink more than that I am in the bathroom all quite frequently.
As for the reduced salt intake, there are very serious studies which indicate that reducing one's salt intake can be dangerous as our bodies need salt. As the NYT article indicates the link between salt and hypertension is rather weak regardless of what these doctors say. In fact, these doctors also embrace prevailing myths like the rest of us.
I say all this not to be argumentative, but only to point out that commonly held explanations behind a variety of symptoms don't have much scientific basis and actually can be harmful.
I think we are seeing and will continue to see a lot of medical orthodoxies and mythologies come into question in the future. Cholesterol, salt, saturated fat, neurotransmitter imbalances, incidental xray and MRI findings, probably many more. |
|
|
|
Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 13:19:16
|
PSPA123:
Speaking of discredited orthodoxies, remember the mantra “saturated fat is bad for you”? Some idiots such as the TV physician personalities are still repeating it.
The following is from the referenced Web site.
/////////////////////////
Via Dr. Briffa and Dr. Stephan Guyenet comes word of a new study from Japan.
This study followed 58,453 Japanese adults, aged 40 to 79 at the start of the study, for 14.1 years. [1] The study found that higher saturated fat intake was associated with:
• A 31% reduction in mortality from stroke
• An 18% reduction in mortality from cardiovascular disease
It was only earlier this year that a systematic review of the literature found that “there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD.” [2] In a few decades the reviews will probably have to go further: there will be significant evidence that dietary saturated fat is protective against CHD and CVD.
/////////////////////////
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/09/saturated-fat-reduces-risk-of-stroke-and-heart-disease/
|
|
|
|
tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 20:17:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Peregrinus
PSPA123:
Speaking of discredited orthodoxies, remember the mantra “saturated fat is bad for you”? Some idiots such as the TV physician personalities are still repeating it.
Thanks for that info Peregrinus, I'm doing my share to debunk all the nutrition hype. I ordered off the new Domino's Pizza menu last night, delivered to the motel room on my road-trip. Had the penne pasta Chicken Alfredo Carbonara Bread Bowl, the Stuffed Cheesy Bread, and the Cinna Stix with Sweet Vanilla Icing for dessert--yummy! |
|
|
|
kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2012 : 10:48:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
quote:
Originally posted by Peregrinus
PSPA123:
Speaking of discredited orthodoxies, remember the mantra “saturated fat is bad for you”? Some idiots such as the TV physician personalities are still repeating it.
Thanks for that info Peregrinus, I'm doing my share to debunk all the nutrition hype. I ordered off the new Domino's Pizza menu last night, delivered to the motel room on my road-trip. Had the penne pasta Chicken Alfredo Carbonara Bread Bowl, the Stuffed Cheesy Bread, and the Cinna Stix with Sweet Vanilla Icing for dessert--yummy!
Yea good one …. u still got a sense of humor TT 
cant imagine how old folks (72 years old), can still run marathons a few times a year?? Better yet how bout the ones that finish a triathlon ( iron man). And live to see their next birthday .
They must be superman descendants and eat cryptonite before the races.
Always Hope For Recovery
|
|
|
|
andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2012 : 12:40:56
|
Hi Peregrinus,
Getting this thread back on track to Hypertension and noting what pspa123 said I have to say I am alarmed at what I think you said. According to my chart that came with my BP meter 160/90 is considered stage 1 Hypertension. If these readings are over the course of the day, I would be alarmed and more so if it continued every day.
In any event I am not medically qualified and encourage you to only get advice on this topic from your doctor, as he knows of the other factors involve, more so if he a specialist.
Please note, I only did my monitoring tests to verify if my medication works, not to second guess my decision to indulge in medication. This is a major league medical issue that can kill you or shorten your lifespan and not a simpleTMS-pain in the toe or back ache that we TMSers know is benign.
If I may creep out from under my TMS tortoise shell and also make a couple of observations, that are not intended to increase your blood pressure but perhaps may.
Is your background of system engineer and mathematics professor interfering with your decision making too much? I have a friend similar to you, a PHD professor statistician in the medical field. He hides his personality behind his intellect and academia. We engineers will also go to extraordinary lengths to get proof that fit our beliefs.
I notice from some of your previous threads a tendency for you to be confrontational and cynical to other people’s views, and somewhat argumentative. If you are showing this same view to the doctor maybe he saw you as a lost cause and declined to “articulate further”. After all he is human, probably very busy, stressed and has other patients that he thinks he can better serve. Think Triage.
I have been in toastmasters, profession job hunting clubs and have learnt that “presentation is everything”, it is the link between two people being able to communicate. As Whoopi Goldberg often comments: “I say this with love”.
I continue to learn daily about health from this forum thanks to all and Tom for pointing out my about bogus PSA test, I just received a check from my Aflac cancer plan, ha, ha.
Best wishes
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Back on Wiki Edu Program day 15
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years. (to be evicted later.)
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
|
|
|
tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2012 : 17:23:35
|
Thank you Kenny and Andy for the kind words and thoughts, wishing you both continued good mindbody health.  |
|
|
|
Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2012 : 18:18:40
|
Andy:
You always make so much sense!
My blood pressure (BP) has been erratic with some disturbingly high readings as of late. For example this afternoon it read 155/84 and five minutes later 113/80! Which number is significant? I’m currently under the care of a GP and a cardiologist and taking the drug they have prescribed despite evidence that it has no effect and information (Dr. Mann in Sarno’s book) that it is the wrong type of drug for me. My cardiologist talks down to me and makes statements regarding the physiological effects of cholesterol that are so ridiculous that I think he believes them. I do think of triage in connection with my cardiologist: triage as in letting him go. My motivation for starting this tread is survival: I would feel better if I could do something about my sporadically high BP. At this point I’m unsure that it is a TMS symptom: there is certainly good reason to believe that it is!
I’m afraid that there isn’t much behind that intellectual façade. I do spend a lot of my time thinking about philosophy (morals), mathematics, physics, and invention. I’m working on the argumentative confrontational stuff although I’ve recently decided that ridicule is often the best response to nonsense.
I’m studying Ozanich’s book and (as many others have attested) finding it relevant to my TMS. As I’m working on my back pain (using one of your recommendations) a number of other symptoms are popping up. For example my knees are often painful. Sometimes it is the right knee and sometimes the left. I get rid of it by saying to myself “I’m not falling for that!”. I suspect that this BP might also be part of the same process.
|
|
|
|
pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2012 : 20:09:54
|
| If you think it's too high have you tried an angiotensin II receptor blocker (ARB), those have pretty benign side effect profiles as far as meds go and are said to be effective. Honestly I think you may be monitoring it too much and getting overly concerned about it? |
|
|
|
kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2012 : 10:54:17
|
quote:
Andy:
You always make so much sense!
My blood pressure (BP) has been erratic with some disturbingly high readings as of late. For example this afternoon it read 155/84 and five minutes later 113/80! Which number is significant? I’m currently under the care of a GP and a cardiologist and taking the drug they have prescribed despite evidence that it has no effect and information (Dr. Mann in Sarno’s book) that it is the wrong type of drug for me. My cardiologist talks down to me and makes statements regarding the physiological effects of cholesterol that are so ridiculous that I think he believes them. I do think of triage in connection with my cardiologist: triage as in letting him goquote:
Originally posted by pspa123
If you think it's too high have you tried an angiotensin II receptor blocker (ARB), those have pretty benign side effect profiles as far as meds go and are said to be effective. Honestly I think you may be monitoring it too much and getting overly concerned about it?
Yup yup Rid the drugs and find a replacement behavior or something that will ultimately help your/ get rid of your stress load
U said it Ditch the docs and take control of your health and well being.
back to TMS thinking
The more I thought about then pain and tried to fight it ...the more intense the pain came and I continued in the Cycle of it.
Once I knew the pain was NOT a structural and I stared to deal with the emotional issues while re teaching my body to RELAX . Eventuality the pain went away. But is work in progress as you learn more about yourself . Bottom line Dr Sarno's TMS model thinking works.
Go back to the basics in application and you should do better my friend.
HTH
Kenny v
Always Hope For Recovery
|
|
|
|
andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2012 : 12:18:01
|
Hi Kenny,
I am in two minds as to whether it’s possible to reduce your BP enough with mind body techniques alone, I just don’t know. Is hypertension only caused by mind body issues? I believe it’s more complicated than this.
To ditch a drug that has harmful side effects or addictiveness is one thing, but not all drugs are bad, and we have to discern the centuries of research and studies and trust doctors on an individual basis. People are living longer partly due to drugs, especially in the western hemisphere compared to say Africa. Drugs seem to have got a bad name lately, look at the epidemic of deaths due to misuse, multi prescription problems, as well as millions on teenagers raiding their parent’s medicine cabinet.
I will be getting a second opinion on my drug Lisiniprol next April when I see a new doctor under Medicare. My decision to take it is as borderline as my readings are “Borderline Hypertension”. From what I have read and experienced this drug is mild, has little side effects, but touts long term benefits. This thread will also help my decision, thanks all.
Peregrinus,
I have a very similar personality to you. It was hard for me to stop using the word “nonsense”. I replaced it with the words “perhaps and maybe”. I realized when brain washing a design with colleagues, especially new young engineers that some of the best results come from the most ridiculous-stupid-and-unlikely-suggestions.
I wish you progress with you BP beliefs, perhaps with a new doctor.
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Back on Wiki Edu Program day 15
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years. (to be evicted later.)
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
|
|
|
Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2012 : 12:18:49
|
PSPA and Kenny:
Good advice! Thanks. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Hypertension Anyone
