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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
 Posted - 12/08/2012 : 10:18:57
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There are many paths to healing, and each individual will process information differently, and react accordingly.
Dr. Sarno's great contribution to the Mindbody process is that he explained the spine in the era of modern imaging, which earlier books by Weekes and Low could not have done. When I re-read HBP more closely I found it to be a tome on anxiety manifesting as back pain, but not much in the way of what to do about it. That has been said before, I know.
One consideration about the whole "Mindbody" process is that those practitioners in the "mind" side of it seem to dismiss or downplay the physical, a fault just as grievous as the doctor that only allows for the physical.
If a doctor is going to tell you that TMS/anxiety has caused your problem, that same doctor has to be prepared to tell some patients, especially long term patients, that when they resume "normal" activity, that your body -- yes, that thing we are held captive in-- may react and feel this way or that, even though it is your postural muscles that are chronically tight, etc.
Being that medicine is not my field of study or work, and that after high school anatomy, I was not very much interested in bodies, except female ones and their particular agility, I had no idea what muscle palsy or "tension" could do to far reaching points of my body. Had I, after my initial mindbody introduction, I think I would have been healthier quicker.
Personally, I found the older books on anxiety to be more helpful, because it proved it is an age old problem (Look up the origin of the word "hypochondriac") and that worksheets, journaling, delving into deep trauma (for most) was not necessary to cure "nervous" illnesses.
Probably, if people want to argue the fine points of Dr. Sarno vs whomever, there should be a separate forum on here for that. This forum, really, remains the only one I ever found where, as TT or Art or somebody put, it, is the only one that people come for help mostly accepting that their problem is psychogenic. Certainly it is for most who are suffering from back problems, especially those with the pretty MRI images of the "hopelessly deformed" and "degenerated" spine.
Why not a separate forum for that, Dave?
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 10:39:39
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| Good post Back2-IT, well said and I was leaning that way before you mentioned me in it. I have suggested several times in the past that there be a separate forum here akin to a Reichian screaming room, where the debate could be fast and furious and maybe help folks free themselves from the constraints of repression and suppression. I understand most who come here are suffering from chronic pain and may not be up to the literary mayhem seen at most other internet message boards. Now when the debate gets lively it's like trying to go by a train wreck without sneaking a peek or rubbernecking an accident on the freeway. Anyone who knows how to set one up, go for it, I initially got a computer so I could access this site, otherwise I'm a luddite. |
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Jilly
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2012 : 14:52:12
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| Alex, Can you discus the tape you made for yourself? Why did you choose to make the tape of the speeding car that almost hit you and not the event of the break in? Or...was the break in memory discovered after your NET work? In the tape you re-wrote the memory of the car accident ... ? So interesting ! |
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Racer
USA
129 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2012 : 19:47:15
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Hi Alix,
This topic is really informative. How do you answer questions with Yes or No when we don't have answers to it? For example, if I was asked the following question, my answer is "I don't know".
quote:
"was the painful event related to family?" yes
Interestingly, mine too was pelvic pain, was getting pains in the places where men don't like to have when all the tests taken are normal. However after visiting this support forum, reading the success stories, and reading Dr. Sarno's book, I certainly feel much better than the past. |
Edited by - Racer on 12/09/2012 19:50:30 |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2012 : 20:23:59
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Jilly,
I am not sure how much value NET brought. What I know is that it brought closure on things I vaguely suspected but that I could not remember. It is "journaling on steroid". Prior to that, I spent hours journaling, going over worksheets and struggling over whether I
I was going over significant or unimportant things.
My reasoning for making a custom audio was the following: The only tangible thing I knew was the fact that the pain pattern I was experiencing was bizarre. This was my only link to a somatic problem. It was my only proof if you want. If I had a nerve entrapment, I would definitely not have experienced such strange patterns.
I was not sure whether Dr.Sarno's model was right or wrong. I am not sure if Fred Amir is completely truthful in his book. I cannot relate to Brady's religious experience. I am not sure whether Dr.Schechter diagnosed me correctly. I was not sure of many things and I just could not help it.
Again, There was only one thing I was absolutely sure of is the fact that my pain pattern was modulated by strong emotions. So I thought that by reinforcing something that I knew to be entirely factual and going over and over those events that would lead me to a breakthrough.
Racer,
The NET is to communicate with your unconscious mind. Your unconscious mind has recorded all those events even if you are not aware of them or you have repressed them. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 08:03:34
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| You know alix based on your experience and the based on one of my office staff lady's experience (she did the same thing but with affirmations). I will recommened on my keys to recovery to possibly use this technique. Maybe they can use a directed affirmation to the persons own situation, say it in a recorder and have it play all night. Thanks |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 10:48:15
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Ace1,
A little OT but I used a freeware "text to audio" program to create the MP3 that I then loaded on my iPod.
My own recorded voice would have been too distracting. A neutral generic voice worked much better.
It also allowed me to add more material. Like when I had a good day, I immediately added that fact to the recording in a matter of minutes. |
Edited by - alix on 12/10/2012 14:01:51 |
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Jilly
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 12:03:32
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Hi Alex,
First place, thank you so much for sharing your experiences and allowing all of us to explore your healing. I am so happy for you !
If I am understanding correctly, you made the 'near automobile hit' tape to try and understand why the pain disappeared for 24 hours ? Was that the break through you found in replaying the event ?
THANKS SO MUCH !  |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 12:44:43
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Thanks Jilly!
Yes exactly. There were a dozen instances in the last 8 years when the pain somehow disappeared. They were always linked to strong emotions (good and bad alike).
Of course when they happened at the time, I always credited a drop in barometric pressure or other nonsense.
So yes, on that recording I went down the list of short periods when the pain disappeared to first describe the event and second to make the affirmation that they are not physically explainable. |
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andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 14:44:00
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Hi Alix,
Thank you for taking the time for coming back from 2010 to post your updates. When first reading three days ago I knew it would become a hot topic, as for some it under minds our basic beliefs. In 2000 I had an unusual recovery, breaking many of the TMS basic rules. My TMS knowledge was then founded on Dr. Sarno’s HBP book and VHS tapes, and from nowhere else, no forums or other sources. So in innocence, I was guilty of breaking the rules and achieved a recovery back then, but it worked despite my negligence, what else can I say?
Yours and apparently Hillbilly’s recoveries and views are the first time I have found that “someone like me”. Isn’t it amazing the differences in TMS healing?
Well done for finding the key to your personal discovery, It really doesn’t matter how you did it or what method you used, Dr Sarno, I think would be very proud, since it was mind body.
P.S. As much as I would like to join in the Alpha male Don Quixote-Banking discussions, I would decline the offer. Rest assured I’m still a Sarno / forum follower, but I bare the right to question any TMS theories, even if it does appears unloyal.
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Back on Wiki Edu Program day 15
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years. (to be evicted later.)
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 15:10:39
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Hi Andy,
Thank you very much for the kind words. Yes believe me back in 2005, I so much hoped for a "book cure" but it did not happen.
I appreciate also very much all the resources on this forum.
I would also like to add that fear was something I had to beat. Even when I was better for a few hours, I was fearful the pain would come back and it inevitably did. That was a final roadblock but many people have explained it very eloquently on this site. |
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Jilly
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 15:54:12
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Hi Alix,
You were able to find your personal healing, we are all so different and you kept working towards wellness and wholeness. I am so happy that you kept working till finding your wholeness. Keep sharing, I am learning from you!
I asked that question of myself a few weeks ago when my pain subsided due to a hammer on the toe. Where did the back pain go now that I have a very sore toe? Can it be the two pains are competing?
More thinking on that one...but I am doing really good and I am a
Sarno-esque believer, as his medicine & intellect are resonating with me  |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 16:03:52
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Jilly,
Exactly. Your hammer incident is the exact type of situation I tried to dwell upon. I had a similar incident with freezing warts.
It is just like if your unconscious or reptilian mind is suddenly overwhelmed by the sharp pain and forgets temporarily to apply back pain. |
Edited by - alix on 12/10/2012 16:09:34 |
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Jilly
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2012 : 17:36:24
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
Jilly,
Exactly. Your hammer incident is the exact type of situation I tried to dwell upon. I had a similar incident with freezing warts.
It is just like if your unconscious or reptilian mind is suddenly overwhelmed by the sharp pain and forgets temporarily to apply back pain.
LOL ! Love the REPTILIAN MIND !  It is so true ! |
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Racer
USA
129 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 06:10:07
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I thought while practicing TMS, we have to abandon all the other therapies for treating the pain. However, the above link again talks about the mind body connection, I'm still struggling to connect the dots and draw a line between TMS and the hypnotherapy for pain management.
I guess it works differently for different people, case by case. As I mentioned in my previous posts in other topics, the 12 reminders on the signature/footer of TTom's posts definitely helping me a lot whenever the pain is about to start. I could sit crossed legs for hours without pain, not how my condition was about 3 months back, something I certainly don't want to look back. |
Edited by - Racer on 12/11/2012 23:40:09 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 10:02:03
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I do remenber in one of Dr. Sarno's books that he mentions hypnotherapy as a possible adjunct to TMS therapy--or at least I think I saw it somewhere. If someone knows please help--if you haven't totally overcome your "goodism".
For the record, I'm anything but a TMS fundamentalist purist--whatever works--it's your money and your life to spend it anyway you like. I've tried most everything from A to Z (even had a date with a hypnotherpaist once, but wasn't hypnotized). I'm open to anyone trying anythying as long as it isn't an irriversable surgery. I don't feel rigid adherance to any belief is productive.
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod
=================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
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eric watson
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 10:36:25
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ok guys i see where were going-when i first came on the site-i was telling a person how to get rid of a bad thought as i had learned thru nlp-it helped me so i thought id help back-one person would say dont fear-(but aint we supposed to face our fears)i know the answer balto-but i was very new to the tms concept-anyways i got bombarded by people saying to said person -not to take my advice-as i journied thru and got healed i was on cloud 9-still am-heres my point-i dont mind other styles that compliment sarnos theory-after all i had to learn acceptance-awareness-re-leaseing and so much more from other concepts as sarno doesnt go into deep detail on how to approach these tecniques-now im always open for what works and im humbled to say (i got upset when i heard mention that no tms books helped-)
see- with sarno as my foundation i understand nlp more now-i use faster eft and much much more ...but this was my lesson-the tms theory was what brought everything else into understanding for me-the 25 yrs of studies ive done have now become an enlightening-so here i am saying yes ive used a combonation that worked for me-and yes we should use other programs to compliment sarnos work-(personally i do think you should absorb the whole of the knowledge of sarnos theory before you study something else and think that did it for you)- but he did say that complimentary study would be fine-yes i am a die hard fan of sarno-but thru the post here im open for anything that will help those that havent gotten there yet-we just cant go diving off cliffs thinking we can fly though because someone comes to the post and shouts i have the new flavor of the week-ill never stop learning its my hobbie-alix ,god bless my friend and good luck with your net and tms journey |
Edited by - eric watson on 12/12/2012 05:52:20 |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 10:43:56
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Guys,
I did not do any hypnotherapy. I happens that the hypnotherapist is trained in NET, that's all.
The NET is simply accelerated journaling if you want. It is a way to ask your unconscious mind what the bothersome thoughts are(that may contribute to your pain).
Then the tape I did for myself is simply a reaffirmation of what I know to be 100% true instead of trying to convince myself that, for example, Dr.Schechter, was right.
In short, there is absolutely no deviation from what I did to get better from what Dr.Sarno recommends. I just approached it from a slightly different angle.
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SteveO
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 14:16:20
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My first thought when I read through this was that I hope the moderator deletes this thread, but it serves a better purpose -- Chuang Tzu
It's also a reminder of what I've been saying for years, that the way in which a message is delivered is as important as the message itself--this is especially true where ego is involved, and of course in presenting TMS.
This is a TMS site based on the work of John E. Sarno, MD. So it doesn't help when someone comes in and says, "Hey everybody I healed! Dr. Sarno didn't help me...I did this this..and this .... instead." The most difficult aspect, by far, in helping people is building their confidence. When that confidence gets rocked it can only do damage, and the influx of email into my inbox after people read this post is proof. But as this thread played out it began to resolve itself. This thread began with, "I don't want to sound too controversial but reading all those TMS books, or listening to TMS tapes etc... did not help me either. I just could not help but to concentrate on the small inconsistencies in those books or tapes."
Alix healed just like Dr. Sarno said to. He just doesn't know it because, like most people, he didn't understand that the 20% who healed with Dr. Sarno's books is not the norm, it's the extreme. Many people healed just like Alix did, which is how Dr. Sarno told people to heal.
Alix summed it up here:
"I am not bashing Dr. Sarno's book. I read it, understood the concept, did the best I could with what I learned (read it over and over, went to see a TMS doctor) but the bottom line is that it was not enough for me and I did not improve. I then read several other books, did worksheets, listened to tapes, watched videos etc... Still no help. That was then. NET allowed me to go to the next step. If reading Dr. Sarno's book is all that is required then more power to you. If you are stuck, you may want to consider NET as an extra tool. If you think it is cuckoo then skip it."
And Dr. Sarno summed up what Alix said here, in this interview.
"The first 20% will get better from reading one of the books. The next 60% may read the book but it's not enough. Why not? Because the things that are going on inside of them are a little more important, they are perhaps people who put more pressure on themselves than the first 20%... so the next 60% need something else, like working with me, well if you live in New York area that can be done, but if you live out in Oshkosh Wisconsin, or in NM, or Arizona it's not possible. I've got a few people scattered across the country who know how to diagnose and treat this disorder, but there are very few... those last 20 % really need to do their homework... Most of those who need a lot longer are in the last 20% (20% with reading only + 60% more outside work + last 20%, even more outside work). In their cases what's going on is even more profound, more difficult, more problematic, and so on, so they need to work with someone, but they get better... There is not one arm chair conclusion in any of this."
Those people who feel they have outsmarted our good doctor, "feel as though they know better than the old man," need to rethink, and to ask themselves why they need to hang around contradicting him? What is it within themselves that needs to do this? Dr. Sarno's has always stated that healing from reading his books has happened on occasion, but that it's not the norm, and that the larger majority of TMS sufferers need to go do "other work" to dig into their unconscious deeper, to alter how it reacts to conflict, in order to get the brain to stop doing that to you. Whatever method the person chooses does not somehow get around what he discovered; eg, the pain should not be feared, there is unconscious conflict, the symptom is a result of erroneous thinking, now go do your homework.
Whatever method a person ultimately chooses to heal with, that works, is part of TMS healing, part of Dr. Sarno's message. But it doesn't dilute his message. It only adds to its validity.
So, my first thought was to delete this post, but it came full circle when Alix just wrote, "In short, there is absolutely no deviation from what I did to get better from what Dr. Sarno recommends."
Exactly, he came full circle. But it didn't sound that way when he suddenly appeared. So he either got brow beaten into rescinding his first claim, or he realizes his mistake in how he first presented it. Only he knows. But he should be thanked for trying to help people.
He came here bringing good news and got kicked in the stomach. Everyone who has brought the great TMS message to anyone else knows how he feels. You want to help people, but the way in which you say it means everything. Dr. Schubiner has recently emailed me and we've been discussing what to do, and what not to do, with presenting it, it's very important.
Dr. Sarno's message is true, it works, but the message gets diluted by the manner in which it gets conveyed. So it's important to stop saying, "Dr. Sarno's work didn't help me...." ... when it clearly has. Once again, the big mistake is in thinking that reading his books, and understanding it will help, singularly. TMS healing is about learning from his books, and then going out and taking care of the problem in any way you can. His books provide the explanation of what is going on, he never provided a clear cut solution. That's why I wrote my book, to show that there are different paths.
Steve |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 15:29:26
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Steve,
My first post was simply to describe my journey starting with Dr.Sarno, getting away from it as I was having serious doubts and coming back to it pretty much by accident 6 months ago.
The problem was me and not Dr.Sarno. It just did not click as I was having doubts on many levels. The more material I was absorbing the more confused and skeptical I became.
It just clicked the second time and let me add, very quickly. Throughout this journey, I have encountered very many chronic pain sufferers (on other fora) that read Dr.Sarno and were unsuccessful applying the principles. Most of the time they got discouraged and eventually dismissed it.
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Cured from pelvic pain
