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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2011 : 18:06:19
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Just curious... have any of you more experienced TMS'ers ever pinpointed your symptoms as related to when stressful events actually happen? Or, do you feel like it's just an accumulation and the symptoms show up when they show up?
What about symptoms when sleeping? Do you feel this can still be TMS? Is your brain at work in this way when you're sleeping, too? Or, do the symptoms just onset in such a way that is delayed and may appear at any time?
It's just odd, because I can't always pinpoint my symptoms (anxiety/sinus problems) to stressful events. Sometimes it seems out of the blue, but if I indeed suffer from TMS... it's happening for a reason.
Thanks in advance for any opinions.
_____________________________
-1/2010 - Developed chronic sinus problems. ENTs/Docs can't find anything
-5/29/2010 - Doc gives cocktail of allergy meds which induces first ever panic attack/anxiety.
-7/16/2010 - Anxiety stays/worsens - put on Xanax
2/1/2011 - Began Xanax taper - Withdrawal starts - full body chaos
-6/11/2011 - Last dose of Xanax. Physical/emotional chaos continues for several months.
-Now: Taking it day by day, looking for real answers and ways to heal myself without medical poison. |
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Mayita
Spain
29 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2011 : 10:57:42
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Hi there!
In my case, I cannot relate symptoms to current stressful events either...
Last spring I had a firehouse and I was fearing the stress would make me feel worse and our brain knows that he can't play games at certain times and I was perfect!
Also, I usually do not suffer them when sleeping, but in random occasions the gremli has awaken me ;-)
Best! |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2011 : 18:50:32
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quote:
Originally posted by bryan3000
Just curious... have any of you more experienced TMS'ers ever pinpointed your symptoms as related to when stressful events actually happen? Or, do you feel like it's just an accumulation and the symptoms show up when they show up?
This passage may be of help:
From Dr. John Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND:
Chapter Ten: "A Family Doctor's Experience With Mindbody Medicine"
by Marc Soper, M.D.
Page 344:
"...the unconscious mind is the site of repressed and suppressed emotions. It is where the reservoir of rage lurks...I think it provides a compelling image for the origins of pain.
To summarize: Dr. Sarno has identified three potential sources for this rage in the unconscious. In each person the quantity from each source will vary.
1. Stresses and strains of daily life
2. The residue of anger from infancy and childhood
3. Internal conflict (self-imposed pressure--the clash of the id
and the superego; it also comes from perfectionsit and goodist
traits)
Dr. Sopher's website is: www.themindbodysyndrome.com
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2011 : 21:27:48
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Thanks Tom!
Totally makes sense. I do believe it's a combination of those factors. I just have had a hard time connecting any dots as far as when symptoms arise, and when I may be doing... thinking... or feeling something, or even unconsciously experiencing something. (?)
But, I guess that's sort of the point, right? If it were easy for us to connect the pain with specific thoughts... we'd all figure this out easily and the brain wouldn't be able to use the distraction tactics it does.
_____________________________
-1/2010 - Developed chronic sinus problems. ENTs/Docs can't find anything
-5/29/2010 - Doc gives cocktail of allergy meds which induces first ever panic attack/anxiety.
-7/16/2010 - Anxiety stays/worsens - put on Xanax
2/1/2011 - Began Xanax taper - Withdrawal starts - full body chaos
-6/11/2011 - Last dose of Xanax. Physical/emotional chaos continues for several months.
-Now: Taking it day by day, looking for real answers and ways to heal myself without medical poison. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2011 : 11:00:05
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quote:
Originally posted by bryan3000
Just curious... have any of you more experienced TMS'ers ever pinpointed your symptoms as related to when stressful events actually happen?
This is a common misconception about TMS. It is best to consider the symptoms as random occurrences. They are not tied to any conscious stressful events. They originate in the unconscious mind. While stressful events might add fuel to the fire, they are not linked directly to the production of symptoms.
Trying to apply logic and rationality to TMS is not constructive. It is a primitive process over which we have no control. |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2011 : 18:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
quote:
Originally posted by bryan3000
Just curious... have any of you more experienced TMS'ers ever pinpointed your symptoms as related to when stressful events actually happen?
This is a common misconception about TMS. It is best to consider the symptoms as random occurrences. They are not tied to any conscious stressful events. They originate in the unconscious mind. While stressful events might add fuel to the fire, they are not linked directly to the production of symptoms.
Trying to apply logic and rationality to TMS is not constructive. It is a primitive process over which we have no control.
Hi Dave,
I agree (and am learning) that trying to apply logic to the process is somewhat fruitless. I think for me, these questions serve to help reinforce the notion that totally random symptoms CAN be TMS. The haphazard nature of symptoms and the seemingly unrelated times at which they occur lead my brain into wanting to disassociate them with TMS.
Also, in reading Sarno's MBP last night... I believe he did have life stresses as one of the 3 main culprits in creating TMS symptoms.
I can double-check the paragraph when I get home from work, but I do believe Sarno attributes at least some of this disorder to stress.
I appreciate your answers, though... and again, I'm not looking to discredit any of the theories so much as to give my mind a greater state of acceptance. (Not always an easy task for me.)
_____________________________
-1/2010 - Developed chronic sinus problems. ENTs/Docs can't find anything
-5/29/2010 - Doc gives cocktail of allergy meds which induces first ever panic attack/anxiety.
-7/16/2010 - Anxiety stays/worsens - put on Xanax
2/1/2011 - Began Xanax taper - Withdrawal starts - full body chaos
-6/11/2011 - Last dose of Xanax. Physical/emotional chaos continues for several months.
-Now: Taking it day by day, looking for real answers and ways to heal myself without medical poison. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2011 : 20:00:57
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While you may not be able to pinpoint the exact event that leads to the symptoms, I think you can have a pretty good idea, especially if it is a series of events.
In my case, I seem to require some sort of symptom at most times. Often nuisance symptoms, but just as often more serious and scary symptoms as at present. Two weeks ago I got an avulsion fracture of a toe before I was supposed to do a marathon. Last week, I bent over, felt an excruciating pain in my lower back and have been stiff ever since.
The precursor to both these injuries was weeks of moderate to severe anxiety and even depression. Neither are unusual for me, but they were at a higher than normal level. In the weeks and months prior were a jumble of assorted symptoms, eg, pf, sesamoid pain, achilles pain, arm pain, tooth and jaw pain, groin pain, tinnitus, shoulder pain...almost all of which I agonized over, analzyzed, tried to "figure out" (never works!), tried to distract from, tried to use the pricipals of TMS and CBT on, took ibuprofen for, iced, sought reassurance for, tried to not care, thought philosophically about, ruminated endlessly about...
Art has said many times and I agree, that the real issue is fear and that as long as the fear controls me it is hard to make any more than temporary progress. It really is an act of courage to take the necessary leap of faith. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 06:20:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
quote:
Originally posted by bryan3000
Just curious... have any of you more experienced TMS'ers ever pinpointed your symptoms as related to when stressful events actually happen?
This is a common misconception about TMS. It is best to consider the symptoms as random occurrences. They are not tied to any conscious stressful events. They originate in the unconscious mind. While stressful events might add fuel to the fire, they are not linked directly to the production of symptoms.
Trying to apply logic and rationality to TMS is not constructive. It is a primitive process over which we have no control.
I have not found this to be the case. I absolutely can tie my symptoms to specific, stressful moments. TMS for me often manifests as off and on aching, aching in the hamstring, aching in the foot, achining in my arm. Whatever the symptom du jour. I very definitely notice the aches tend to occur at stressful times...while I'm arguing with someone, or in the presence of some loud and unpleasant noise, even while the phone is ringing. In fact, this has been extremely helpful in giving me confidence that something is actually TMS. I've even been aware of something beginning to ache while having a bad dream...
Also, in a more meta-sense, I tend to be more susceptible to new symptoms during times of high stress.
To give a recent, specific example, I woke the morning Hurricane Irene was due to strike to a near symphony of aches and pains. We have an easily flooded basement and the sump pump of course is powered by electricity. So I was pretty worried about flooding.It took me a few minutes to figure out what was going on. (I'm not very bright at times.)
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Edited by - art on 09/13/2011 06:26:09 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 08:01:33
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TMS is the VOLUME CONTROL for the pain.
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
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Edited by - tennis tom on 09/13/2011 08:04:09 |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 08:47:07
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quote:
Originally posted by art
To give a recent, specific example, I woke the morning Hurricane Irene was due to strike to a near symphony of aches and pains. We have an easily flooded basement and the sump pump of course is powered by electricity. So I was pretty worried about flooding.It took me a few minutes to figure out what was going on. (I'm not very bright at times.)
From reading your post I know you're very wise and smart. You're just a very sensitive individual and you usually expect the worst when faced with adverse situations. Most tms'ers are full of ANT'S (automatic negative thoughts). we expect the worst, we shocked our body into pain and anxiety, and then we run around in panic trying to get rid of the pain. We also keep fighting a loosing battle with the same weapons for years then wonder why tms/anxiety still stay with us. We need to find some new weapons, some new way to fight, we need to make some major life style changes... |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 11:05:32
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balto,
Thanks for the kind words, and I often find myself nodding in agreement concerning the things you write as well...
That's a drum I'l continue to beat, that those of us who torment ourselves along the lines you so effectively describe, need to make major changes. It's not enough to conquer any given symptom because the next one is always on the way. We can be as sure of this as we are the sun's going to come up in the morning...
This takes courage and commitment and even a certain fierceness. And yet it's ben my experience that people plagued by anxiety are paradoxically are often quite brave. That's the good news. We do have the tools. We just have to learn to use them |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 11:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by bryan3000
Also, in reading Sarno's MBP last night... I believe he did have life stresses as one of the 3 main culprits in creating TMS symptoms.
Yes, this is true. The key is that you should not connect specific conscious events to the symptoms themselves.
Dr. Sarno uses the metaphor of a "reservoir of rage" that gets built up inside our unconscious mind. There are many ingredients that add to this pool of rage, including life stresses. When it gets full and threatens to overflow, that is when the symptoms occur to distract us and prevent those feelings from becoming conscious.
This does not mean that if you encounter a stressful event, it will immediately cause TMS symptoms. The process is not that simple and predictable. It could be that a stressful event pushes us "over the cliff" and causes symptoms, but this is not common. In fact, sometimes the stressful event itself can cause enough of a distraction that the TMS symptoms are not necessary. Often, the symptoms occur when we are not feeling stressed, such as when we are on vacation, or enjoying a relaxing game of tennis or golf.
Bottom line, it is repressed emotions that lead to TMS symptoms. These feelings by definition cannot be felt. Therefore, I find it best to consider the symptoms as random occurrences and not tied to any conscious events. I treat them as a benign signal that I might be repressing something, so I try to figure out what might be bothering me that I am not feeling at that moment. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2011 : 17:01:28
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quote:
Bottom line, it is repressed emotions that lead to TMS symptoms. These feelings by definition cannot be felt.
This, of course, requires that you believe that there is such a thing as an unconscious, and that repressing emotions, which all people across the globe do all day, every day is the problem.
I don't think most people can understand the reasoning behind shifting their focus away from pain and onto something that might be upsetting them that they are completely unaware of and that quite possibly doesn't even exist. If this has worked for you, Dave, then I applaud you. But I don't see people coming here after reading Sarno having a full grasp on the treatment plan due to these nebulous statements. There are simply too many questions about what to do.
In another thread you listed four steps to recovery. I agree with the first three enthusiastically. But #4 is a sticking point, and it requires more than a metaphorical read and a staunch belief in the mind's mischief to list as a requirement for recovery.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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golden_girl
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2011 : 19:34:21
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I don't particularly agree with Dave either, although I know this is what the good doctor administers...
This is a great line from Art:
And yet it's been my experience that people plagued by anxiety are paradoxically often quite brave. That's the good news.
And that gives me great hope 
"F.E.A.R.
Forgive Everyone And Remember
For Everything A Reason"
Ian Brown |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2011 : 10:39:55
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My views are consistent with Dr. Sarno, that is what this forum is about.
The doctor has successfully healed thousands of patients over the course of nearly four decades. His techniques work, plain and simple.
The most important part of recovery from TMS is to recondition your thoughts and responses to the symptoms. This is true regardless of whether or not you choose to use Dr. Sarno's explanation for the syndrome, or something else such as "generalized anxiety disorder." Acceptance of the symptoms, and modification of one's thoughts and behavior in response to them, is paramount to recovery, no matter how one chooses to characterize it.
Freud, Jung and others also treated patients successfully, but as is typical of the human race, many who came afterwards decided that those guys had no clue. That is too bad, because they did some very important work. It is human nature to constantly evolve our scientific knowledge, and in the process, invalidate the findings of our predecessors. In 50 years, psychology will probably evolve to contradict the entire concept of CBT as it exists today. The fact is, the intricacies of how the human mind works will forever remain a mystery in our lifetimes. All we can do is create metaphors to "dumb it down" to our level of intelligence.
I personally believe in the concept of repressed emotions. We are constantly pushing stuff out of our conscious mind that we do not want to deal with. Avoidance is part of human nature. We choose not to think about those things that cause us emotional pain. So where do they go? They get pushed down into our "unconscious." This is an abstract concept, a metaphor, but a very good one IMO.
Some choose to embrace alternate explanations for psychogenic symptoms. The fact is, none of them can be proven. As long as each individual finds an explanation that they are comfortable with, and that allows them to conquer the symptoms, who cares?
I believe human beings will never know the true story of how TMS works in our brain. It is pure hubris to believe that we can. The human body is an incredible machine, and we have only a primitive understanding of the mindbody connection. Dr. Sarno's explanation has has helped thousands of people to recover, regardless of the fact that it cannot be scientifically proven.
Ultimately, recovery is a personal journey. Regardless of how one decides to explain it, the root is the same: accept that the symptoms are not caused by physical, structural issues, but have a psychological origin. Recondition yourself to react differently when you experience them. That's pretty much it, in a nutshell. |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2011 : 14:30:20
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These are fascinating responses. Thanks to all.
Those who think alternatively to Dave... would you care to explain why, and with exactly what part of his statement you disagree? In reading his explanation a few posts above, I'm confused about which part is in question? Seems to me that he's following a fairly accepted model of TMS explanation and treatment. Which part (speficially and directly) do some of you disagree with? (Keeping this all as friendly as possible, please.  )
Also, Hillbilly... I'm told you have dealt with anxiety? I'm primarily here seeking answers to my anxiety. I'd consider it my primary presenting symptom, with severe sinus headaches being second. I've recently spoken to a TMS psychologist here in Los Angeles, and he did believe it would be worth looking into for me, as did Dr. Schubiner when I emailed him. (Schubiner is working on a book dealing more with the emotional disorders as they related to TMS.) In any case, I'm curious to heare a synopsis of your anxiety as you feel it relates to TMS, and if you consider it your primary symptom?
Thanks again all. This is great stuff.
_____________________________
-1/2010 - Developed chronic sinus problems. ENTs/Docs can't find anything
-5/29/2010 - Doc gives cocktail of allergy meds which induces first ever panic attack/anxiety.
-7/16/2010 - Anxiety stays/worsens - put on Xanax
2/1/2011 - Began Xanax taper - Withdrawal starts - full body chaos
-6/11/2011 - Last dose of Xanax. Physical/emotional chaos continues for several months.
-Now: Taking it day by day, looking for real answers and ways to heal myself without medical poison. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2011 : 17:40:33
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some of us take what Dr. Sarno preached word for word. Some just take bits and parts. Dr. Sarno noticed years ago that many of his back pain patients also suffered from other ailments that known to have an emotional cause like anxiety, panic, headache, depression... so he theorized that backpain could also be caused by emotion. He experimented his theory on his patients and got results that are much much better than conventional treatment. He used Freud's and Jung's works to explain how emotion can cause pain.
His treatment and explaination is wonderful but personally I think he focused too much on "repressed rage" and events that happened long long ago as the pain's causes. In one of his interview he said he now screened his patients before he accept them for treatment. He only accept patients who are openned to and accept his theory. That I think is what raised his treatment success rate because trust in your doctor and acceptance of what your doctor said would have cure 50% of your pain already.
I was able to got rid of my pain by reading his book but I was never able to stop them from changing, manifesting into another pain or anxiety. I spent years with many therapist looking for my "repressed rage" and dealing with them one by one... but It didn't work. And by reading at this forum I know Sarno alone didn't work for many also. After many many years of trying all kind of treatment, read hundred of books, visited many "experts"... I came to the conclusion the only way to get rid of all my pains, all my anxiety is to stop my fear of what the pain, what the anxiety can do to me. No more: "What if" anymore.
I think if Sarno's method work for you, good. If not, keep an open mind and explore works from other mindbody experts. Dr. Sarno pointed out that tms pains have emotional causation but his treatment may not work for everyone. Atleast not for me. He pointed me in the right direction though, for that I forever appreciated him. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2011 : 06:14:13
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Dave,
Thanks for the clarification that you were speaking metaphorically. I think your previous statement held just a bit too much certainty that repressed emotions are the cause, period.
Bryan,
I have read a few of your statements here, and it looks like you have read Sarno and have begun to undertake his treatment plan. Tell us how it works out for you after six months or so, and if you are still struggling after talking to your brain and journaling, etc. I have written extensively here about what I believe and why, so you can search here for those threads and read them.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2011 : 14:42:07
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quote:
Originally posted by balto
I came to the conclusion the only way to get rid of all my pains, all my anxiety is to stop my fear of what the pain, what the anxiety can do to me.
What many people do not accept, is that this statement is 100% consistent with the approach that Dr. Sarno recommends.
Too often we get caught up arguing semantics. The bottom line is we have to recondition ourselves to stop paying attention to the symptoms, not allow them to control us, not allow us to fear that they might escalate. Dr. Sarno's suggestion is to shift your focus to emotions that may be repressed. I'm sure CBTs preach different techniques that might also work. Personally I feel I am healthier for forcing myself to face how I really feel about the stuff going on in my life. When I start to dig, I realize that things are affecting me on a deeper level than I realized. For me, it is about being truly honest with myself and learning to face my emotions and not hide them. For me, the habit of repression developed in my childhood and I carried it with me for my entire life. Dr. Sarno helped me realize how this contributes to a variety of symptoms. Once I connected the dots and permanently changed the way I thought about and reacted to the symptoms, I gained relief.
Now, can it ever be proven that the repressed emotions are the cause of the symptoms? Probably not in our lifetimes. But does it matter? |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2011 : 16:28:28
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Yes, it matters greatly, and not just to me. Here's why:
The Good Doctor has theorized that the symptoms are a distraction from spooky emotions that have been ignored or shoved down to reside in the realm of the unconscious mind. They are a substitute for the feelings. Unlocking and feeling those feelings is not only prescribed as part of the treatment plan, but it is the whole focus of the ridiculously expensive and all-too-often completely ineffective psychotherapy prescribed when self-help fails. As Sarno himself says, and I am paraphrasing from HBP, if we discover the emotions and allow them to be acknowledged, there is no longer a need for the symptoms. And then, of course, we have the Edna St. Vincent Millay poetic explanation for treatment extensions or failures.
Now, Sarno has spent a good deal of time talking about how symptom treatment is poor medicine, but dealing with the "cause" of disease or condition is good medicine. He holds himself apart from the quacks who peddle pharmaceuticals in this regard, and I applaud him because no one I've ever met with this type of problem was suffering because they had a shortage of Paxil in their system. But I digress....
So, Sarno's entire argument centers around repressing emotions, discovering them and acknowledging them, and stopping the habit in order to stay healthy. So, does it matter? I would say it does. And I would also say emphatically that this is the reason for so many treatment failures here and on other boards I have visited. People are simply chasing the wrong aim (hidden feelings) instead of disciplining themselves to live their lives courageously regardless of how their bodies act when they encounter something they don't like. This is all that is really required. If the symptoms are harmless, why don't more people go out and do things that they need to do in order to be responsible adults, get fit, etc.? They don't believe they are harmless. Simple enough, so instead of going all out they wait until their symptoms abate (again, following doctor's orders) under the guise that journaling or seeing their therapist to unlock emotional blockage will bring relief.
The cause, in my view, is both mental and behavioral, anything that causes stress, creates poor self-esteem, limits their involvement in life. Although hiding feelings can be a cause of stress, it is hardly the only issue. And my point in coming here is not to assassinate Sarno, but to give people something to think about that are either lost in a maze, like I was, or caught between treatment paradigms like I was, or wasting precious money on therapy that was not helpful at all, again as I did.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 09/19/2011 16:31:23 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2011 : 17:08:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
So, Sarno's entire argument centers around repressing emotions, discovering them and acknowledging them, and stopping the habit in order to stay healthy.
Either you don't recall his books, or misinterpreted his message, if you believe "discovering and acknowledging" repressed emotions is an essential part of recovery.
Dr. Sarno makes it very clear in his writing that by definition, the repressed feelings that lead to TMS symptoms cannot be felt, and the majority of people do not need psychotherapy to get better.
He gives one specific example of a woman who suffered severe abuse as a child, who experienced relief once she uncovered it. This is rare and is an exception, not the rule.
The doctor stresses reconditioning above all else: changing our thoughts and behaviors in response to the symptoms, abolishing the fear, and resuming normal activity. Some do benefit from psychotherapy, a treatment that has also been successfully prescribed for many decades, until the CBTers came along and decided those who came before them were quacks.
Dr. Sarno's treatment worked for me and thousands of others. Just because it didn't work for you does not mean that his theory is invalid, or that his treatment does not work for many others. Just because many who visit this forum and others have trouble in recovery does not mean that they will not be successful given more time, focus, and dedication.
My belief is that someone first starting out treating TMS is best served by following Dr. Sarno's book and not debating whether or not his theory is scientifically accurate. This only creates doubt and hinders the commitment necessary for recovery. The first step in treatment is to acknowledge that the symptoms are psychogenic. For me and many others this comes as an "aha" moment when the personality types described in his books resonates with us. A lot of what comes next is a personal journey.
Nevertheless, I agree the focus should be on "disciplining themselves to live their lives courageously regardless of how their bodies act" as you suggest, and not on uncovering every dark psychological secret from their past. Perhaps this doesn't come through as well in his books as it does for his patients. |
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Question: Time?
