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winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 13:42:56
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It is complicated. I also recently remembered childhood abuse from my dad. Like you, scd, I repressed it b/c I thought it wasn't too serious (everything that happened stopped around age four). And (at least some of) the same things happened to my brother and sister. So yes, I thought what happened was in the realm of normal as it was normal in my family.
In addition, I later and throughout my childhood, looked at my dad as a hero, "the only thing that saved me" b/c he protected me from my mom, who was a very abusive alcoholic. It has been enormously difficult for me to comprehend it all and to now see my dad as no hero and in fact, a much weaker man with emotional problems equal to or larger than my mom's.
If you'd asked me 10 years ago if I'd had a good childhood, I would have said, "Yes!". It's been a tough few years, sitting in therapy piecing together these memories. There were many times I pleaded with the therapist to tell me it wasn't true or put a different label on it; I would say to her, "Maybe it didn't really happen." How I wish it hadn't. What's disconcerting to me is that even with the closet door open on all these skeletons, I am still not shaking the physical symptoms.
(As an aside, I should add that I moved 2,500 miles away from the entire family 20 years ago. My father died 10 years ago. Interestingly, I just now realized that most of my illnesses ramped up after he passed away.)
Didn't mean to mean to hijack a thread, btw, thanks for listening. |
Edited by - winnieboo on 12/20/2009 13:54:51 |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 18:56:45
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Winnieboo You may have a chance to cut the suffering in half. First thing first . With migraines the teeth are an issue . I had a premolar that needed work but did not hurt except if i brushed with cold water I was planning to get it taken care of . Nevertheless in the meantime the nervous system never fails to acknowledge the problem and puts on "a constant surveillance program"of the area to be ready to remind you of it first chance it gets even if it never happens. The whole area around the problem becomes like on orange alert zone although you don't really feel it, you may be able to tell while feeling okay because you may clunch your teeth or keep your jaws tight like ready to bite your tongue for no reason that you know of or feel the tongue tight in your mouth as in vaccum mode or both but feeling no pain. Because of the proximity it makes the area already proned to the migraines much more sensitive and vice-versa to some extent.As a migraine develops and you can't stop it try to pay attention if you feel something abnormal with the tooth you're concerned about. If you have a doubt about your teeth then have it checked out , your body doesn't know how to lie to you. To measure relaxation touch the bottom of your skull in the back of your head there is two high spots if these are more sensitive than the rest try to release the tension in a way that works best for you at that point you still have a little time. If all is well go to the next step. One less doubt is also one more chance to make you faith work better. Good luck .
La'a |
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winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2009 : 20:17:08
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Good suggestions, catspine. Many thanks, WB |
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ammuni
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 16:54:01
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Hillybilly:
You wrote: “I reacted only to the fact that you contradicted me by stating that the doctor's theory wasn't as I had stated it. It is EXACTLY as I stated it, and although I spent eight months with this theory, I was caught between paradigms. Treatment for anxiety went one way, seemed simpler and a helluva lot cheaper. Psychoanalysis of the Freudian type left me in a deep state of open-ended depression, money, time away from the family, work, it was part of the spiral.”
I’m sorry that you went through this. However, it seems that you finally found a method that worked for you. My understanding is that most people following Dr. Sarno’s method heal without the need for psychotherapy and that he only recommends a minority of his patients to proceed with this type of psychotherapy. I’m wondering, given your animosity toward Dr. Sarno’s treatment, if you think that everyone that follows his method and undertakes psychotherapy has the same misfortunate experience that you had? A lot of people do have success with psychotherapy.
It is challenging to understand what you are really trying to say because as a reader, I’m too busy sifting through your disdain for Dr. Sarno. Your postings come across as angry and I’m left wondering what you are angry about rather than actually focusing on your ideas. After a number of rereads and back and forths, I can now surmise that you disagree with part of Dr. Sarno’s theory, a part of his theory that didn’t work for you, and you want to assist others who may be experiencing a similar situation. I have now understood that you are well intentioned. However, if that is your goal, then why don’t you just speak from your personal experience in a supportive manner, talk about your healing journey, and point out the areas of Dr. Sarno’s theory with which you disagree without derision? You may want to consider that your denigration of Dr. Sarno’s treatment is actually an obstacle to getting your message across and to helping others. You wrote: “Once it was explained to me that my symptoms were the same symptoms of stress I had felt and accepted millions of times before in my life, were just exaggerated because of the wolves my mind was creating, and would remain until I erased them from my mind, I began to look at the whole thing differently. If you were able to draw that conclusion from reading Sarno, I applaud you, because that language is simply not there. I've looked.”.”
I’m not sure if I understand the description of the treatment modality you undertook. Are you referring to CBT (cognitive behavourial therapy) or ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) or other?
The conclusion I drew from reading Dr. Sarno was that there was nothing structurally wrong with me and that the chronic pain I was experiencing was a result of a psychological process. I did use the method he recommends, i.e. everytime I felt the physical pain, I focused on my feelings and what was happening psychologically for me instead. It worked as it does for many people who choose his treatment method. I tend to agree with drziggles’ posting in that I do not split anxiety/fear from TMS.
Again, I’m sorry that Dr. Sarno’s approach didn’t work for you. But luckily, you seem to have found another treatment modality with which you were successful. I might actually agree with some of what you say if I could easily excavate your point of view from behind your derision. In the meantime, it’s too much work.
Best of luck, Ammuni |
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ammuni
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 17:11:57
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quote: Hillbilly and Ammuni You both have a method that works to deal successfully with your symptoms and are both willing to help others according to your own experience. Since it sounds like both of you went way past the self help level does Hillbilly's disbelief in Dr Sarno's method reflects a higher cost for therapy than for who ever helped him out? With TMS psychotherapy cost can become an obstacle to recovery very quickly but is there a reference for how long a faster technique last ?. Any comment on that? La'a
Hi La'a,
Well, I am in Canada so the cost of health care is different than in the U.S. While it doesn't cost anything in Canada to see medical doctors or to see psychiatrists, our universal medical coverage does not cover seeing a counsellor or a psychotherapist. Thus, I do see your point of view, that the cost of psychotherapy can be an obstacle to Dr. Sarno's method.
I suffered from debilitating back pain and FMS for about a decade before I found Dr. Sarno's treatment. During that time, I paid out of pocket for treatments such as acunpuncture, chiropractor care, naturopathy, homeopathy, back rests, etc.,. all in attempt to ease my symptoms and heal. When I found Dr. Sarno's method, I healed in a period of three months. So what I spent with Dr. Sarno's treatment was really nothing in comparison to the financial cost of various treatments during the ten years when I was suffering from TMS.
I'm also not sure if every TMS therapist is a psychoanalyst (a psychotherapy based on Freudian theory). I'd be interested to find out more about that.
Take care, Ammuni |
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Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2009 : 00:20:40
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Hello All. I've been out of town for the holidays and thought this thread had gone quiet. I read all the posts and was most struck by those of Winnieboo and SCD who have recently recognized connections to bad events from the past that they did not previously perceive accurately. In my experience (with over 4000 adults abused as children) it is quite common not to recognize the full negative impact of abuse until years or decades later. What Winnieboo and SCD describe are absolutely typical and normal reactions to those bad early experiences. In my book I try to explain the process of recovery from this abuse in a step-by-step way so that people can, ideally, recognize where they are in that process and then make further progress. For people who are unable to do this right away it is not a personal failure, only a measure of how severely they were afflicted. I often tell my patients that an abusive early environment (which can take many forms) is like being born on the far side of Mt Everest and having to climb over it to reach adulthood. I urge them to recognize the heroism needed just to get to the other side. If there is lingering pain after that accomplishment, this is not a surprise and definitely not the survivor's fault. Journaling can help many achieve more clarity here, sometimes after a delay (which may have happened for Skizzik whose journaling may have had delayed benefits after much subconscious processing). I can't provide an answer for every contingency in my posts here but I tried to cover as many as I could in my book (and every dime from royalties goes to support my teaching health care professionals around the U.S.) My best wishes for a rapid and full recovery for everyone in the New Year. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2009 : 05:19:20
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I just finsihed reading Dr. Clarke's book. It is a very good read and I highly recommend it. |
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winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2009 : 07:43:05
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Thank you for your kind words, Dr. Dave. I feel like I've made more progress in the past month on this forum than I did in two years of psychotherapy, although I do acknowledge that the therapy was an important and necessary piece in my journey. I finished your very helpful book, and I am now working through David Barlow's excellent treatment manual, which Hillbilly recommended.
Dr., your comparison to being born on the far side of Mt. Everest was interesting, but of course, it's hard for us TMSers (or maybe it's just me!) to compliment or congratulate ourselves on anything. But, I'm beginning to be willing to try. I am still plagued by some physical symptoms. Even though I know that's just my style of anxiety and distraction, my biggest struggle is to believe that the symptoms are harmless. As time has gone on, my creativity in generating really strange, hard to diagnosis symptoms has become more sophisticated! I stubbornly keep looking on the "outside" of myself, checking with doctors to make sure I'm okay. In between, I have to remind myself that some days, the symptoms aren't there at all. Those are my best days, for sure!
Once again, thanks to all. Happy holidays and Happy New Year! |
Edited by - winnieboo on 12/27/2009 07:43:56 |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2009 : 10:26:17
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quote: Originally posted by ammuni
Hillybilly:
It is challenging to understand what you are really trying to say because as a reader, I’m too busy sifting through your disdain for Dr. Sarno. Your postings come across as angry and I’m left wondering what you are angry about rather than actually focusing on your ideas. ...
You may want to consider that your denigration of Dr. Sarno’s treatment is actually an obstacle to getting your message across and to helping others.
...
Best of luck, Ammuni
Hillbilly,
Ammuni has summed up very well what comes across for me, too, when I try and read your posts. I know it's difficult to interpret tone in the written word, so I'd like to check with you whether that's actually your intention when you write your posts?
Aside from that, I think it's great that you share your experiences here, because as far as I can see, there is no single route to getting better which works for everyone.
Hilary N |
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winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2009 : 15:27:01
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Originally posted by Hillbillyquote: I have never stated that TMS and anxiety conditions are different. I have stated over and over again that TMS (meaning muscle pain, the original, denotative meaning) is simply a symptom of the disorders commonly known variously as anxiety disorders, stress illness, nervous disorders, psychosomatic illness, functional illness, somatization, or conversion. The separation happened when Sarno stepped out on a limb with his distraction theory, reaching back into the dusty psychological texts of yore in an attempt to explain something that had been well-researched, well-documented, and treated effectively for decades.
Last time I checked, this Forum discussed all kinds of methods and theories for getting well. If HB's posts come off as angry, perhaps it's because a few of you are needlessly angry b/c he is speaking his mind. Thought that's what blogs were for--offering up opinions and intelligent brainstorming. In fact, I don't think he's offered any wild departure from anything that any one of us has discussed before, either individually or in the collective.
Obviously, you can believe that the pain is distracting you from sludge in your unconscious, or you can see the pain as one giant, ongoing and chronic anxiety attack. Whatever view and whatever behavioral change takes you closer to a more comfortable and livable life--I mean, that should be the goal. Personally, I think I had a lot of resistance to the idea that I was "distracting myself" from horrible things. (I understood the idea of course, but why would I on any level choose PAIN to take my mind off something? Seemed a bit masochistic to me, or at the least insulting, although I accepted it because I thought it was a way to make myself well. Actually, the whole concept made me angry at myself for conjuring up such hideous pain--even if it was unconscious! I remember my TMS therapist saying "you like to punish yourself!" You know what? NO, I DON'T!!)
So, and rather, it's easier for me to conceive of a construct in which the horrible things in my past, present and subconscious create tension for me. My childhood was no picnic and I'll be 50 in a minute, so I guess I can celebrate about five decades of living tense. I'm sure I'm biologically wired that way too. A fitting DSM IV label for that is "anxiety disorder." That's what I'm working with and working to change. It's a lot of conditioning to undo. My anxiety has manifested in many ways over the years. I've had panic attacks, body dismorphic disorder, many OCD symptoms, many phobias and my latest is this chronic pain syndrome, which is another manifestation of the anxiety. It's a tough road to hoe, so why not try looking at it another way if Sarno's theory doesn't float your boat. Really. I don't get the aggressive defensiveness of Sarno. His book is widely-read and earth-shattering for some, but for the others who need the information presented in a different way, why not? And why not welcome ANYONE who is not only free of pain, but also one who is here to help? |
Edited by - winnieboo on 01/10/2010 09:22:53 |
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Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2009 : 23:20:49
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I happen to agree with Winnieboo that the old Freudian concept that stress-related pain is a distraction from other issues is unlikely to be valid. If it was valid, my uncovering those issues would result in more pain as the brain redoubled its distraction efforts. Instead, most people improve when the underlying issues are uncovered. This improvement fits better with a theory that unrecognized psychosocial stresses are causing a direct physical reaction in the same way that recognized psychosocial stresses can cause physical reactions. Butterflies in the stomach before a big job interview are a good example of the latter. The long-term effects of an abusive childhood are commonly not fully appreciated in the early (or mid-) adult years and are a good example of the former. A few people get temporarily worse when the underlying causes are uncovered but that is another direct reaction to the initial recognition of how bad something really is or was. My patients, emphatically, do not punish themselves and I doubt anyone using this forum does either. |
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patils
72 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2009 : 09:45:53
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Consider our body as subconscious mind. ( Actually body is grosser form of mind and each thought is impacting body. Grosser form example is Ice is grosser form of water )
When our subsconious is get loaded, it will get manifested as pain. Now this loading of subsconious may be because of 1) Desire for perfection. 2) Too much stress. 3) Worry etc.
BTW Dr Dave, have you experienced RSI pain in your life ? I am asking, because I am of firm opinion that man who has gone this psychological truma can only understand what this pain is. Only reading and medical Degress will not help.
Sachin
When all medicines fail, Meditation will help. |
Edited by - patils on 12/28/2009 09:48:28 |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2009 : 14:14:19
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Dave
I happen to agree with Winnieboo that the old Freudian concept that stress-related pain is a distraction from other issues is unlikely to be valid. If it was valid, my uncovering those issues would result in more pain as the brain redoubled its distraction efforts.
This is where my simple mind gets confused. Isn't that what's happened in Winnieboo's case? That uncovering an issue resulted in more pain? Presumably because the brain is redoubling its distraction efforts?
Hilary N |
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tcherie
72 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2009 : 19:53:05
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I know that Sarno's theory worked for me, and I felt symptom free for seven wonderful months. Now I am starting to have mild symptoms again, and I know I am under a lot of stress and I do feel anxiety.
I don't know why there is such an issue with the distraction theory, and I don't see why they can't work hand in hand. I do know that when I start feeling pain, I am distracted from what is bothering me because I do become more focused on the pain. Like right now, I am stressed about work, but instead of dealing with that issue, I am here thinking about TMS.
I just wish that those who disagreed with Sarno's theory would choose their way of disagreeing a little bit more thoughtfully, because the truth of the matter is that it has worked for many, but belief is the key. People come here looking for hope a lot of times even though that may not be the forum's main purpose. For those who Sarno's theory may actually work for if they believed in it, sometimes what those who disagree say causes enough doubt that it does impede a person's progress.
I know belief was important for me. But I know I can be easily influenced to doubt especially when we are talking about something that is a theory. Just be careful that you are not trying to make such a point that you affect those who need to believe in this theory to get better. |
Edited by - tcherie on 12/28/2009 19:55:23 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2009 : 20:37:48
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Everyone is free to come up with whatever explanation they feel is valid for TMS.
One can choose to accept the theory of a medical doctor who has devoted the better part of his life to formulating and fine tuning the TMS theory, based on real experiences with thousands of patients.
Or, one can choose to dismiss some or all of those notions and formulate their own theories.
In the end, it really doesn't matter. The fact is, all this intellectualizing and over-analysis doesn't really help. In fact, overthinking is common in TMS-prone people and can even be considered a distraction in and of itself.
The debate may be interesting, but ultimately it does not serve to provide relief from TMS. I believe that no matter how we choose to explain the inner workings of TMS, we'll be wrong on some level. I believe the human mind does not currently have the capacity to truly understand how or why the brain induces TMS symptoms. Luckily, it doesn't make any difference. As long as we accept that the symptoms have a psychological origin, and work to recondition ourselves to change the way we think about and react to them, we can get better.
Dr. Sarno's theory can be viewed as just one metaphor that tries to explain the TMS process in terms we can understand. It happens to be a good one. The distraction theory works. People get better. And ultimately, that is what matters.
I'm sure that in 50 years somebody will come up with another theory and refute Dr. Sarno, just as the psychology community has come to dismiss most of Freud's theories. This is, after all, part of being human. Thankfully, the reconditioning process does not depend on us knowing such details. If it did, I doubt anyone would recover. |
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Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2009 : 23:18:04
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Hello all,
I agree with Dave that Freud/Sarno's distraction theory and my preference for the concept that TMS symptoms are a direct physiologic reaction to unrecognized stresses are really just two different metaphors that attempt to explain a poorly understood process. The choice of one vs the other to account for what is going on really doesn't affect the healing process that Sarno and I largely agree about. What IS important is uncovering and treating the hidden stresses that are responsible for the illness. That is something we can all believe in. |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 01:30:02
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How your mind understand something is what most of the time cures someone from TMS , just the right words and it's gone. Where ever these comes from may surprise you sometimes. The problem is if words can heal you they can hurt you too . I 'm curious to hear what Dr Dave recommends to fragile patients who are not quite ready yet to test how strong their beliefs are but are interested in reading the posts .Thanks. |
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Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 11:02:53
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I was asked if I have ever had TMS and the answer is no though after stressful days at the hospital I occasionally notice stiffness in my neck and shoulders purely from tension. I am also fortunate to be a member of the minority group that grew up in a stable, functional family.
For catspine, I see no reason why fragile people cannot read discussion about what is causing TMS/stress illness. Everyone, myself included, can learn from hearing different points of view. (That is one of the things I like about this forum and the TMS Wiki [http://tmswiki.wetpaint.com/thread] .)
There is far less debate about how to treat the problem which is all about uncovering hidden stresses. Bouncing ideas off other TMS sufferers on this forum is often helpful in providing insight and that benefit far outweighs concerns about debates around the cause. For yet another perspective on causes, a few weeks back my blog had some posts about research into the physiology of Fibromyalgia and most of that material also applies to TMS. Those posts are archived under Stress Research in the Stress Check-Up page of [www.stressillness.com/blog]. The many perspectives on TMS causes are not mutually exclusive and I'm sure there is truth in all of them. |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 14:30:44
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Thanks Dr Dave Lucky you are indeed to be spared from TMS. There are many reasons for it to strike. I suppose that fear can keep it alive and well especially when TMS generates severe anxiety or panic attacks which feeds on fears of all kinds too in a vicious circle especially when someone is looking for an explanation for what is going on which motivated my former question. I agree with what you say that benefits far outweighs concerns about debates around the cause. Your answer once again demonstrate that the best way to deal with fears is thru and as soon as possible before it grows bigger and worse...
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 12:59:19
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Dr. Dave,
I haven't read your book, so forgive the questions. You list depression as a disease on your blog. What is the cause of that "disease"? If depression causes stress illness, then what is beneath depression? Does uncovering the "hidden stresses," as you refer to them, relieve the depression, or do you think these patients need medication and therapy? If therapy, what type? Thanks!
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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