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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
 Posted - 12/17/2009 : 05:19:39
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for me, it took several of "hillbilly's" posts to convince me it was ok not to journal my ass off to get better.
I was addicted to journaling. I recall sitting in the movie theater watching the chipmunks with the wifey and kids and writing out the rage in the movie screen light. I was convinced I had to do this to get better. Wife still remembers this. I wrote all day. For probably 2 years.
Earlier this year, I took 7-8 journals of pure rage, unibomber manifesto like scribble and burned them in the fire pit in the back yard. It was like a weight off my back that no-one would ever read them.
Hill, was my first introduction to the condition being an everyday type thing, and not repressed rage. It was then confirmed by monte as well and others, Kjarvis, flybynight etc.
You have to know that until recently, this forum was plagued with people going full bore "writing, and journaling out the repressed rage and distractions". Few, if any were getting better. Yet the advice to write, and write and write some more and eventually you'd get better seemed to be the only antidote here. Many like me began to wonder if I'm not getting better, only worse, then maybe I don't have TMS. My fear/pain cycle was thru the roof. This I believe is the orgin of Hill's disdain for distraction theory.
It took hillbilly's support (along with others, they know who they are ) to allow me to put the pen and paper down and finally spend time with my family. If he had'nt taken my phone calls at certain times; those calls would have been directed to making appoitments with neurosurgeons. I personally can't thank him enough for helping me get to where I am today.
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2009 : 06:39:33
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| I'm a Sarno purist. Distraction/good ol' Freudian/autonomic nervous system cutting off blood flow/think psychological theory makes plenty of sense to me and sure works for me. Why try to fix it if it ain't broke. 20 years of sciatica without Sarno, then 3 years of being 90% improved, and still getting better every week, using unadulterated, by-the-book Sarno. I'm just one of the many who took Sarno undiluted and turned their life around. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2009 : 06:45:57
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| Oh - I just read a post on this thread that puts down journaling. I must admit that I have not journaled and it has not slowed down my recovery - although maybe that 10% remaining, occasional pain might have been cut out as well if I had journaled? Anyhow, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember Sarno emphasizing journaling very much, if at all, but it's been a while since I've read his books (I do listen repeatedly, however, to his one CD in the car). I believe the big push on journaling came from various of his "disciples" and not from THE MAN. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2009 : 06:58:14
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Fox,
Your final post is what gives rise to the confusion. Dr. Sarno has emphasized journaling out feelings for a long time now. Please see #5 in the treatment section of TDM.
Ammuni,
Glad to hear you aren't attempting to explain things in Sarno's language. I would ask you, though, since you are an accomplished and erudite psychotherapist, what exactly this direct quote from TDM means: p. 143, #3
Unconscious painful and threatening feelings are what necessitates the pain. They are inside you; you don't feel them. Does that mean your cure and mine were placebos?
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2009 : 11:48:52
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| Sorry, Hillbilly, I should have checked it out (journaling per Sarno) before commenting. I do see how journaling would fit into his idea of thinking psychologically....Maybe I'll try it. |
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ammuni
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2009 : 19:17:15
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Hillbilly,
You wrote:
"Glad to hear you aren't attempting to explain things in Sarno's language. I would ask you, though, since you are an accomplished and erudite psychotherapist, what exactly this direct quote from TDM means: p. 143, #3
Unconscious painful and threatening feelings are what necessitates the pain. They are inside you; you don't feel them. Does that mean your cure and mine were placebos?"
I never said I was "an accomplished and erudite psychotherapist." I really don't care for your sarcasm and I really don't understand your compulsive need to tear apart and critique what Dr. Sarno writes. In whatever way I interpreted Dr. Sarno's method, it worked for me one hundred per cent and that's the bottom line.
If you found a method that works for you and you are cured, fantastic. If not, move on and find another approach until you are cured. No need to waste your time and energy here.
Ammuni |
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patils
72 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 06:44:10
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*********************************************************************
Hilliby
If you found a method that works for you and you are cured, fantastic. If not, move on and find another approach until you are cured. No need to waste your time and energy here.
Ammuni
[/quote]
********************************************************************
We should be open minded. Hilliby is great asset on this forum. I have been pain free ( 95 % ). and I am comming to conclusion slowely that all problems are because of anxiety. I am writing my success story in detail within few weeks, as I am not getting time.
I was having upper back and neck pain since last three years and that too severe.
Hilliby writes through his personal experience and his posts reflects real knowledge and should be helping so many hanging souls.
I certainly thanks Hillaby for contributing on this forum, as he is totally pain free and still helping us to understand on the forum. Along with I really liked posts of
Dave ( meaning GOD in our local language ),
Tennis Tom ( great name, i liked),
Logan ( surprised she is female ),
Helly N ( initially supported me and really contributes on this forum)
Sarita (initially helped me )
And many mores whose name I perhaps not remembering now.
I too have decided to contribute on this forum for at least three month as my gratitude to this forum.
Again thanks to all,
Sachin
Pain Can be Mastered, Pleasures Never. |
Edited by - patils on 12/18/2009 09:21:30 |
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Plantweed
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 07:07:18
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| Personally I value Hillbilly's posts, they've helped me immensely. And if Sarno's methods are rock solid enough they will survive criticism and discussions and questioning. In fact, I'd say they need to be able to do that. No use being ginger about their credibility. |
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winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 10:39:59
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I've copied some of Hillbilly's posts and refer to back to them in my weak moments! He's obviously got a great intellect and I think it's beyond commendable that he's cured, yet he comes here and gives back.
Also, I'd like to clarify that my earlier post was not meant as a put down of Sarno (I rush writing some of these entries and see I should measure my words more carefully). What I hoped would come across was that I think many other smart people have adapted and/or expanded on Sarno's theories, and some of them speak to me more than others. I was also directing a compliment at Dr. Dave. I was not familiar with his work or his book, and the ideas that came up on this thread helped to further gel some of the Sarno theories that have become a part of me. And I like the idea of calling it a stress-illness. Just a matter of taste. I just bought Dr. Dave's and it's a clear, clear account. Sometimes it helps to hear things six different ways.
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Edited by - winnieboo on 12/18/2009 10:50:01 |
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ammuni
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 13:32:58
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I too was cured by Dr. Sarno’s method and have lived twelve years free of back pain and FMS. I shared my experience here hoping to assist others.
I agree that disagreement and looking at things critically is important. I just don’t find that Hillybilly’s posts express disagreement in a supportive manner. She comes across as having a vandetta against Dr. Sarno’s methods. I’m just not sure how ripping apart Dr. Sarno’s theory actually helps someone heal from TMS.
Dr. Sarno expresses one theory. That is what he believes. If you don’t believe in it, try another treatment or modify it if that works best for you. Or try Dr. Dave’s treatment. Is one more “correct” than the other? I think healing is a very personal journey.
Thousands of people have been cured by Dr. Sarno’s methods and I can venture to guess that many of these people varied slightly in their interpretation of his treatment method but it worked for them all the same. I shared my interpretation of his treatment method, an interpretation that worked for me. Am I in support of Dr. Sarno’s method and his theory? Yes. Do I see what he is trying to say? Yes. Do I read his every word, every sentence, every quotation as if it was gospel? No.
Hillbilly: I apologize if my earlier emails came across as curt toward you. I was reacting to your very strong criticism of Dr. Sarno’s theory. To me, your postings come across in an unsupportive tone and being new to the site, I didn’t see how that was helpful to people who were trying to heal from TMS.
I do not know of your history here, your illness, nor that you have been cured. I can only assume that if you are on a TMS forum, then you would have used Dr. Sarno’s method? But maybe not. Maybe you’re here to show people another treatment approach to illness and pain? I just don't understand your disdain for Dr. Sarno's method when it is only one theory that in practicality has cured thousands.
In sharing my personal experience, I took a risk. I took a risk and posted on this forum with the hope that my experience might encourage and assist others. Your reply to me was denigrating in its sarcasm.
Honestly, I’m beginning to think that I’m glad I never found this site (if it existed) twelve years ago when I was struggling with debilitating back pain and FMS. I really don’t know how all this questioning and critiquing of the treatment method would have assisted me at all. What would have helped is support in implementing his method.
Twelve years ago, I was alone in my healing. I saw myself in every page of his book and I could accept his basic underlying theory: that the physical pain I experienced was not structural in nature but a result of a psychological process. (Now that is my interpretation, if you disagree with it and you find something else that works – great. If you want to ask me questions in a supportive manner, great. If you want to criticize and rip apart my interpretation in a confrontational tone, please don’t. That is not helpful to me at all and I’m really not sure how the tone in which such criticism is offered could be helpful to others.)
Ammuni |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 16:55:00
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Hi,
First as a new one on this forum I'd like to thank the person who created it and all of you who keep it alive.
It is a wonderful thing that the concept of a mind/body connection is alive and well here, it gives us a chance to use this often overlooked fact in different ways to find precious relief so I decided to try it out .
After being a silent reader for a while I see that one may find information crucial to getting better from another person's experience or share the happiness brought by relief and if a comment is counterproductive it may be that what you believe in is being challenged which can be beneficial too if used wisely.
Years of my severe and extremely painful lower back problems vanished after being properly diagnosed as TMS and treated accordingly.
What it takes to overcome the symptoms varies greatly with each individual but recovery require something simple. You must believe it is possible to solve your problem. Tremendous things happen to believers I was told, that alone made a big difference many times and still does. So believe the answer will come when the time is right. It will.
I'm now looking forward to a positive experience in this forum |
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winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 17:06:32
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| Hey ammuni--Hillybilly is a guy. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 20:26:58
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Ammuni,
I reacted only to the fact that you contradicted me by stating that the doctor's theory wasn't as I had stated it. It is EXACTLY as I stated it, and although I spent eight months with this theory, I was caught between paradigms. Treatment for anxiety went one way, seemed simpler and a helluva lot cheaper. Psychoanalysis of the Freudian type left me in a deep state of open-ended depression, money, time away from the family, work, it was part of the spiral.
Once I was able to connect with someone who genuinely understood the nervous system well, had lived through a much worse time than I had, and was willing to listen to me bitch and whine and make excuses, nod and point to the assignments she had given me, I got better — and fast.
Once it was explained to me that my symptoms were the same symptoms of stress I had felt and accepted millions of times before in my life, were just exaggerated because of the wolves my mind was creating, and would remain until I erased them from my mind, I began to look at the whole thing differently. If you were able to draw that conclusion from reading Sarno, I applaud you, because that language is simply not there. I've looked.
My purpose in coming back here is to help those stuck in the quicksand, fearful of letting go of the promises offered by Dr. Sarno's work, but unable to reach the level of health promised. Sometimes the only way to chisel through the cement is to use a sledgehammer. I remember how difficult it was for me when my symptoms were strong to change my thinking, but I managed it and am the better for it. Cheers to all! Happy Holidays!
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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HellNY
130 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 21:13:28
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I think Hillbilly's posts tend to be among the more thought provoking and valuable on the forum. |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 01:15:34
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Hillbilly and Ammuni
You both have a method that works to deal successfully with your symptoms and are both willing to help others according to your own experience. Since it sounds like both of you went way past the self help level does Hillbilly's disbelief in Dr Sarno's method reflects a higher cost for therapy than for who ever helped him out? With TMS psychotherapy cost can become an obstacle to recovery very quickly but is there a reference for how long a faster technique last ?. Any comment on that?
La'a |
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winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 06:44:13
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quote:
Once I was able to connect with someone who genuinely understood the nervous system well, had lived through a much worse time than I had, and was willing to listen to me bitch and whine and make excuses, nod and point to the assignments she had given me, I got better — and fast.
Hillbilly, if you don't mind my asking, what approach did this therapist use? After two years with a Freudian therapist I am desperate to start with someone else (who is hopefully cheaper and more helpful) and of course, I hope that my next move will be the one that cures me. When I began with the last therapist, I had neck pain. I left her a month ago sans neck pain but now I've been diagnosed with trigeminal neuralgia (I have to laugh at myself on this one, but it's very painful!) and my migraines are with me three days a week. Doctor wants to put me on Topamax for the migraines. My anxiety and depression level is high and I should mention that I hate my job and am planning to quit with or without something else in a few weeks. I'm on the East Coast. If anyone has a name, please let me know. |
Edited by - winnieboo on 12/19/2009 07:26:00 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 17:54:57
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Winnie,
I worked with a person who was familiar with Claire Weekes' work. She integrated David Barlow's anxiety treatment manuals with her own knowledge from having personally suffered more than a decade of nervous prostration because of her ignorance of what was happening and a belief that there had to be something "wrong." I think Barlow's approach was key simply because there were specific techniques to do, assignments if you will. Migraines are awful. I had them so bad that I couldn't function. Just had to shut out the light and the noise and attempt to sleep with a racing mind and a throbbing head. So easy to do when you have a full-time job with loads of responsibility, a wife and two small children. I don't give advice about medications for migraines, but I would attempt all I could without drugs. Don't feel like a failure for seeking pain relief while you work this all out. Give yourself time and space to accomplish it.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 07:04:06
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Winnieboo,
From age 15 to 42 I was suffering from migraines. Except for that I was perfectly healthy and was not aware of an emotional or psychological reason for this to happen .
I never knew until recently that it was TMS. I found out because of back problems that took over and were cured successfully as TMS.
Sometimes I got it twice in 24 hours and up to 5 times a week and it could disappear for 4/6 months and I would forget about it thinking it was gone for good. When it came back it was extremely powerful.
Usually it made me shake and throw up and my body temperature would swing drastically from the time the pain started until it reach a peak, my eye balls felt like they were about to burst and the vain on my temple grew as large as in my neck.
I thought I had a tumor in there or something like that. At the time nobody could tell me what the cause of the pain was. For other reasons I never went to see a doctor about it for the first 15 years and had to learn to endure the pain.
When I finally had access to them doctors tried different medications that made me sick and did not stop the migraines until
I came to the US on vacation and saw a doctor who diagnosed it as a facial neuralgia and gave me a shot of sumatriptan that was new at the time. I forgot the brand name sorry. It was really expensive and it worked but it was not available in Europe then.
So when I went back I had to resume to the only thing that I did every time the pain came back:
I took a hot bath as hot as I could stand it and ran the hot water on the side of my face or at the base of my skull until the pain went away.
I became an expert at finding the right temperature and type of flow and quantity of water that helped me the best.
Time was always of the essence, when I was lucky to catch it early enough the pain would go away in 10 minutes but too often
It went on for hours regardless of what I did .In these cases the hot water just helped regulating the body temperature that went from fever like symptoms to shivering in an instant.
As the years went by the pain came more often and stronger and it slowly and gradually expended to the other side of my face.
At that point another doctor diagnosed me with trigeminal neuralgia and wanted to operate.
I never gave him the chance because I did not trust him. Unlike now at the time there was no Internet and research took a lot of time and efforts. I had to do a lot of guessing and learning by myself.
The migraines were less frequent in the summer and a neurosurgeon found that the cold systematically made it worse.
One day a migraine started at a car show and I was taken to the Red Cross present for the event,they could only help me by putting me under oxygen which much to my surprise helped a lot! I used this technique more or less successfully again several times later on.
Finally years later when against my will but much to my benefit my life changed drastically the migraines stopped and never came back. I was never able to explain how really but it stopped and I know now that the mind had a lot to do with it. In order to make sure they were gone I even drove my bike in freezing temperatures for hours or stuck my head out of the windows of the car in similar conditions, nothing happened !
Our body knows more than our mind does if you give it a chance to tell you what to do.
Have you thought of breathing techniques like lomi ha to release repressed emotions?
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winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 12:02:27
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Hillybilly: Thank you. I just ordered one of Barlow's book on Amazon. I will also return to my copy of Claire Weekes "Hope and Help," which has been helpful and comforting in the past.
Catspine, thank you for sharing your experience. I know the migraines are TMS, but I haven't figured out how to take control yet. I think I'm thinking psychological and I think I'm relaxed, but I keep getting the headaches anyway.
Your experience sounds like mine. I started with the migraines about 15 years ago, when my youngest child was a toddler. Went to the ER a couple of times and was finally given Zomig, a triptan, which has been a savior to me over the years. If I get an aura or can catch the migraine at the onset, one tablet always does the trick. Over the past year however, my attacks are more frequent and the Zomig only works for 12 hours--then I have to take more, sometimes for up to four consecutive days.
The migraines are always on my right side. The "neuralgia" is on my left and began about five months ago, triggered by some minor oral surgery and other dental work.
Some days, I'm certain the left-sided pain is a complete hoax, as it miraculously melts away (most of the time) after exercise, deep breathing, meditation, or at dinner with a glass of wine. But on most days, especially lately, I get myself completely worked up about something having gone wrong with the oral surgery. And if the pain isn't there, I'm freaking out that I'm not going to be able to handle it when it comes back.
Honestly, I am so completely frustrated. I beat reflux and neck pain, only to trade for this...And frankly, I'm very down on myself because I just can't pull my head out of this place, so I am really grateful for your responses. |
Edited by - winnieboo on 12/20/2009 12:06:01 |
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scd1833
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 12:47:28
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it seem to me that ALL of these posts reinforce and confirm sarno's theories, more or less, just reading them made me feel a lot better!
I don't know what to say to the people that still are not getting better, other than it's not a perfect science. these negative events resonate in different ways in different people, and there seems to be many layers to this stuff also..
in my case I had almost immediate results. months later, I had a repressed childhood memory of abuse, that I had completely repressed. the thing is, when I was a child I was not AWARE that it WAS abuse! it wasn't til I got better that the memory came back to me and I realized that I had been molested by an older kid. nothing too serious(?!), at the time I just thought it was weird, NOW I realize what happened.
I guess what I'm saying is, is that the emotional issues are more complicated than we can consciously comprehend sometimes.
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Linking Stresses and Symptoms
