| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
 Posted - 12/31/2009 : 17:40:26
|
[quote]Originally posted by Hillbilly
Dr. Dave,
I haven't read your book, so forgive the questions. You list depression as a disease on your blog. What is the cause of that "disease"? If depression causes stress illness, then what is beneath depression? Does uncovering the "hidden stresses," as you refer to them, relieve the depression, or do you think these patients need medication and therapy? If therapy, what type? Thanks!
Good questions, Hillbilly. In general terms, depression can result from bad life experiences or from a biochemical imbalance in the brain or some combination of the two. Treatment may include counseling/therapy alone (if there are bad life experiences or stresses present) or medication alone (to correct the chemical imbalance if it exists) or both. If therapy is provided, the type depends on the individual's particular issues.
I refer to depression as one type of hidden stress because many people who have it don't realize they have it. Often this is because the disease Depression doesn't always cause the symptom of feeling depressed. Instead it can cause physical symptoms (fatigue, poor sleeping, vague body symptoms or pains) plus loss of enthusiasm or appetite. To make things more complicated, other types of hidden stress can cause depression and depression can make any form of stress more difficult to cope with.
Hope this helps.
|
 |
|
|
catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2009 : 20:19:05
|
Hi Dr Dave,
You said that medication alone is given to fix a chemical imbalance if it exists.
How is the chemical imbalance measured please?
A friend of mine in his mid 60' was suffering from depression . He couldn't believe it himself but one day he suddenly started crying while in the middle of doing some wood work and he couldn't stop.
After a few weeks of the thing happening again he went to his doctor and got appropriate help. After a few months he was finally feeling better but he told me then that the turning point for him was when he realized what the difference is between resignation and accepting: resignation is basically giving up while accepting leaves you with the option to do something about what you accept and from then on he did not see his aging as a dead end but more as a chance to make other benefit from his experience and he made the best of it .
Can chemical imbalance depression be the result of exposure to toxic wastes, lead, car fumes or heavy metals and are any of those known to affect the nervous system ?
This brings an other question: what kind of detox program really works if there is such a thing?
Thank you |
|
|
|
Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2010 : 13:51:51
|
Hello Catspine,
The story of your friend is an excellent example of how depression may not be recognized by the person who has it. That is why I refer to it as being a hidden stress much of the time (one of five types of hidden stresses).
There is no way at the moment to measure the chemical imbalance in the brain that, in many people, causes depression. We presume the imbalance is there if we prescribe medication designed to elevate certain chemicals in the brain (known as neurotransmitters, they enable nerve cells to talk to each other) and then see the depression get better. Low levels of neurotransmitters such as serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine appear to be important in causing depression. (I'm oversimplifying for clarity here.) As a practical matter, if a person's depression is bad and/or they have no obvious issues to approach with counseling or therapy then a trial of medication is usually a good idea. The meds are not addictive, mind-altering or tranquilizing and side effects can usually be minimized by switching to a different med when a particular med isn't tolerated well.
We don't know what causes the neurotransmitter imbalance but there are clearly genetic factors involved as well as effects of life experience. The role of environmental toxins is not clear and I'm not aware of any detox program that has benefits for depression (though they may exist). Lead poisoning in adults can mimic depression and/or TMS in many ways, though, so if you have lead pipes in your house or or old paint on the walls or have occupational exposure (battery factory?) have your doctor do a blood test or a urine heavy metal screen. |
|
|
|
patils
72 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2010 : 23:35:47
|
Only spiritual approach can cure depression and anxiety like diseases. No medicines will help. It will create disturbance in functioning of brain and that may be the reason that many people have committed suscides even though they are on medicines for long time.
Western psychology is just childish, just born at the end of the last century. It is not even a hundred years old. I say it is childish because Sigmund Freud (1856 – 1939 ) is father of western psychology.
The East has known all the layers of the mind. If you are interested you can read book raj-yoga by Swami Vivekananda. It is most indepth book on earth.
http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_1/vol_1_frame.htm
Sachin.
When all medicines fail, meditation will help.
|
Edited by - patils on 01/01/2010 23:45:04 |
|
|
|
catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2010 : 03:34:09
|
Thanks to you both Dr Dave and Patils
This is very interesting...
If I understand this well meds can best be used for immediate help and then spiritual approach once the patient is "more stable" and seeks a permanent solution. can it be done this way?
The next question seems to be :why is there so many depressed people when at least two widely spread known methods can produce good results? |
|
|
|
Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2010 : 12:17:17
|
I'm not familiar with research on the benefits of meditation for anxiety or depression so I can't comment on how well or how often it is beneficial.
The medications and counseling/therapy benefit about 80% of people with depression and there is evidence that combining these two forms of treatment is more effective than either one alone.
I suspect the observation about the number of depressed people has to do with the fact that it is a common illness, not everyone has access to or seeks treatment, the treatment takes time, and the treatments don't work well for about 20% of people. |
|
|
|
Peg
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 06:04:32
|
I believe there is research showing meditation to be helpful with anxiety and depression. Here's an interesting article I found describing such research. While it looks at the mindfulness meditation, another aspect of the treatment that could have been helpful was the CBT and even just the social support group setting.
http://www.naturalnews.com/024986.html
Peg
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei |
|
|
|
Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 13:08:10
|
| Thanks, Peg. That appears to be a well-designed study. 75% of the patients who received Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy were able to stop taking their antidepressants. The full reference is J Consult Clin Psychol. 76(6):966-78, 2008 Dec. |
|
|
|
Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 17:53:01
|
Peg and Dr. Dave (or anyone else),
Judging from this study and many, many more (those at UCLA conducted by Michelle Craske, for instance) in reference to treatment of patients with psychosomatic symptoms and/or depression, it appears that the treatment that provides the best and most lasting results is therapy to address the thought life AND behaviors, whether combined with an adjunct anti-depressant or not. Any studies either of you are aware of involving A/D patients in Freudian analysis with this type of success ratio?
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
|
|
|
sarita
130 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 15:48:58
|
HI all,
this is old sarita, i was away for a while.
i just want to say the following: sarno did not say "unconscious emotions" even once, nor did he use the word "rage". he spoke of stress, pressure. he is a VERY smart man, and kind. what hillbilly says is true, what sarno says is true. there is no black and white here. we will never grasp the whole picture anyways, lets find out what helps us. i am the sort of person who is not satisfied with anything diffuse, i am learning to accept it.
hillbilly says, it is anxiety, nervous illness what causes the pain. thats true. (but i do believe that what creates this state is unconscious many times,i can tell just by looking inside me). why are we so angry, so bothered or humilliated sometimes, but can not say why?
going a bit astray here. my point is: to cure from tms or anxiety, change has to happen. and YES. change in your thinking. like "reprogramming". but this is what sarno says, what tolle says, what claire weekes says. get it? pain can mean unhappiness, anxiety, anger, feeling hopeless, defeated. it can have many reasons. in my case it was mounting stress, and HUGE anxiety, all the time, feeling unable to do things, just awful. and so so so linked to stress. listen to this: i was doing better, playing in a concert. my little voice says "oh my god, i am glad this is not happening, the stiffness, the." SURE ENOUGH, i have pain and anxiety the moment i say this, i feel that i suffocate. claire weekes "dont add second fear" "accept" "float" helps so much, most of the time. but i am in the working process. every day was ****y before, now i have those bad ones, but also normal ones where i am sarita!!!
its just amazing how quickly the arousal happens, how fast i am in that state again.
my psychologist, i saw her 3 times, is great- but too expensive...that why this time i will really join the abraham low recovery groups. and just read his books.
i think self help is a great thing.
and,
i am discovering the benefits of breathing, meditation... |
|
|
|
patils
72 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 22:48:26
|
Hi Sarita,
By your name, I gauss you are from India. Sarita means river.
Why you are not joining any Indian spiritual organisation who teach mediatation / breathing and that too at free cost. Only your willingness is needed.
You can google out and see if anything is nearby to your place.
There are many NGO's wo are working for transferring human life.
Meditation should not be brought into business. In western countries it has become just business.
and one more thing, no psychologist will help you unless he is man of character. Psychology is only subject on this planet where subject and object are one. We have to study our mind ( subject ) by our own mind ( object )
You can read books of series, Complete works of "Swami Vivekananda"
He was man of character and pure love. I dare say he was most intelluctal person than all humans kept together.
|
|
|
|
sarita
130 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2010 : 01:53:06
|
patils, i took note of everything you wrote! thanks so much 
there such be plenty of such centers in ny.
i am not indian! father is mexican=sarita.
i really appreciate your feedback!! my psychologist is a woman, believe me, i can spot bad ones so quickly, she has character for sure. we will see...$$$
all the best to you
|
|
|
|
francisair
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2010 : 07:43:26
|
| There are many "cures" for what ails people. For anybody to express what's true for everybody plays God. Maybe medicine is what's needed to get some people to a place where they can be still enough to do the work. Maybe meditation and other eastern practices is what others need. Still some benefit from western psychology practices and recover fully. To suggest that the east knows "all" the layers of the mind sounds arrogant to me. There's more than one way to climb a mountain. I use EFT to great benefit and if I'd listened to some on this site I am a fool. Personally I think what ultimately works is developing a connection to whatever idea of God works for you and God will decide what you need. But that's just my opinion! |
|
|
|
catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2010 : 15:21:30
|
According to Dr Sarno it is the knowledge of what is going on and how it is used that can cure TMS .It served me well twice already so I tend to agree with this approach but I do not think or feel that involving God in the process is counterproductive. Science explains how and religion explains why which is definitely compatible when looking for an answer.
A friend of mine teaches theology on Eastern religions in a famous British institution and the position took a great deal of expertise to be selected for the job (2 people out of 800 of the best preselected already).Our endless discussion on the subject led me to believe that many do excel or master the mind related subjects over there more efficiently than we do here. They do seem to be much better at it. The need is probably different or bigger. I'm not the author of the post mentioning that "The East has known all the layers of the mind" but i think his statement can be easily verified and confirmed. There is a lot to be learned from it and all other traditions as well. Personally I do not favor one versus another in order to work with TMS because it all depends on what you need and as you say wisely francisair -There are many "cures" for what ails people-
A very important factor that leads to recovery is to be able to identify understand and resolve conflicts between the forces at play inside of you trapped within the layers of the mind consciously or not. It is the incompatibilities that are the source of the problems and the greater those are the worst the pain. Confusion must be eliminated first before recovery takes place so obviously meditation can become an essential tool for that .
In western civilization the trends is to keep everything separate maybe because power is such a big issue but I noticed that real Hawaiian healers (Kahunas) and other ones as well I suppose insist on bringing things and people back closer together in their practices and get great results form it because it addresses the cause instead of the symptoms. Western medecine is excellent at working with the symptoms but when is it going to standardize working with the causes too?
|
|
|
|
sarita
130 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2010 : 12:12:10
|
i know little on the matter but my clear tendency is towards thinking that western psychology is on the wrong track. things get managed, not healed. i just see too many people taking ad's year in, year out, and who are stuck (btw i am also talking about myself here). looking at the root of the problem, at the cause, is a MUST. i agree with patils, healing has to come from insight, if you will, enlightement. of course for some people this is god. it can be other things, too.
|
|
|
|
Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2010 : 15:05:19
|
| This thread is huge. I'm going to start another one to continue the remarkable discussion. |
|
|
|
jerica
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 07:44:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Dave
For Skizzik, your story fits very well with many patients of mine. Good Partner/Bad Illness Syndrome can occur in response to significant positive life events other than a new supportive relationship. For example, one patient of mine became ill after receiving the Employee of the Year award. Another after she received her PhD and adopted a child within a six month period.
The common denominator is the contrast between poor treatment as a child and a present-day life that is going great. Fear that the good times won't last and anger about not having had good times as a child all factor in to the creation of symptoms. Writing/journaling about your feelings regarding past mistreatment is a good approach to this. So is setting aside regular time every week for self-indulgence which helps make up for not getting this as a child and also teaches you essential self-care skills. You have good insight and it sounds like you are on the right track.
Dr Dave I read your book last year after seeing it on the library shelf (the title popped right out because it described me!). I didn't have much luck with journaling as I had a new baby at the time so I couldn't keep up. Your theory here is really interesting because I have found myself almost totally incapable of allowing myself any peace or pleasure. I feel guilty and wrong when I feel GOOD. I had a cruddy childhood with lots of punishment and religious stuff reinforcing the idea that you have to suffer to be "saved" or loved. It's been a neverending battle and I'm always on the losing side. I almost feel like I "conjure" up symptoms -- as soon as one resolves another takes its place. It's maddening. |
|
|
|
patrickneil
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 10:51:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
Once I was able to connect with someone who genuinely understood the nervous system well, had lived through a much worse time than I had, and was willing to listen to me bitch and whine and make excuses, nod and point to the assignments she had given me, I got better — and fast.
Hillbilly, Hope all is well. Who did you work with? Does she have a website or contact information?
Thanks,
Patrick |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Linking Stresses and Symptoms
