| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2009 : 08:32:25
|
In my patients there are usually one or more hidden stresses underlying the physical illness. If these can be uncovered they can usually be successfully treated. This week my blog has three posts that introduce ideas about how to find the links between stress and symptoms. If you are interested, the blog is here: [http://www.stressillness.com/blog/].
Comments about the content of any of these are welcome. |
|
|
Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 10:19:06
|
| Great blog, Dr. Dave..thanks for sharing..:) |
 |
|
|
Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 06:50:04
|
But Dr. Dave, most here think that they are in pain not due to a nervous disorder as you speak about on your blog. They are ill, as they think due to reading Dr. Sarno, because of something dastardly and hidden in their unconscious. The unconscious has created the pain as a distraction to keep them from feeling their overwhelming feelings. Even though most of them will admit they feel overwhelming amounts of fear and anger on a regular, "conscious" basis as a result of taking their aching bodies with them to accomplish the tasks of their daily lives.
Almost everyone who is honest would admit that their pain symptom does not occur in a vacuum. It is part of an overall process that began when they felt overwhelmed in a world gone and still going mad. Their thoughts are fixated on a problem or set of circumstances that they feel disempowered or in some way reluctant to bull their way through. The pain and other symptoms started when their thoughts kept them from relaxing, like a frontline soldier in a nightwatch function, and the tension pain started, pain keeps them from relaxing, thoughts pile up about life with this awful pain (God, it was tough before; now what am I going to do with this pain AND all that other stuff?), and the whole thing cycles and keeps itself going.
It seems to me that one cannot conquer their fears until they are certain about what it is that they fear. People with this condition are afraid mostly of their symptoms and what "might" happen, but never does. If they are successful in conquering the fear of symptoms, the situation that made them ill in the first place is waiting there for them when they are finished, and that's when many retract into their shells and suffer relapses. They don't fully stand up to the pain and work their way through it, and that is the thing that keeps it in control. Freedom lies just past the wall of flaming fear, but you have to break through decisively, not approach reluctantly and slowly, as the flames will keep you trapped.
I do not believe in Sarno's teatment plan from firsthand experience. It is so nebulous I don't know how anyone can follow it. It is heartening to see that another MD has attempted to deal with this problem with a different approach. Please keep posting, as many here are years into their battle and are not seeing the results they desire.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
|
|
|
Pd245
58 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 11:28:20
|
Hillbilly:
Can you elaborate on: "They don't fully stand up to the pain and work their way through it, and that is the thing that keeps it in control."
Just interested to know how one works through pain. I haven't been able to figure this one out. |
|
|
|
Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 12:42:32
|
Dr. Dave... What in heaven (hell) is this good partner bad illness syndrome? I first got six in my 20s when I had the first ever supportive partnership.
quote from your stress-test blog:
"Physical illness that started around the time of your first truly positive, mutually supportive personal relationship (the “good partner/bad illness” syndrome)"
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
|
|
|
drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 14:27:38
|
Hillbilly, there you go again... As usual, 99% of what you are saying is consistent with TMS concepts. Sarno's approach didn't work for you, which is fine, but it does for many other people. You persist in splitting anxiety/fear from TMS, like the two things cannot be related, when they are in the vast majority of cases.
Whether one looks at TMS more as "stress-induced illness", like Dr. Clarke, or in the more classical Sarno approach of repressed emotions, they are really two ways of looking at the same entity.
Believe it or not, many people with TMS are not aware of their feelings, including anxiety, or they attribute their anxiety completely to their physical symptoms. In those cases, it is necessary to dig up feelings and emotions they may not be aware of that could be at fault.
No approach works for everyone, so it is useful to have other people's perspectives on this forum. The anger and derision about Sarno and TMS treatment, however, is not particularly productive.
Dr. Clarke, thanks for the blog, and good luck in your new endeavor! |
|
|
|
Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 15:29:18
|
Hello all and thank you for your responses. My view of TMS/Stress Illness is that the symptoms result from emotions that are being expressed via the body. (I have trouble with the Freudian concept (borrowed by Sarno) that the symptoms are meant to distract you from the emotions. If that was true then uncovering the emotions would lead to greater attempts at distraction and even more symptoms in almost every case. Instead, the opposite happens and most people improve soon after the underlying emotions are uncovered.)
So the key is to find the source of those hidden emotions. This is not easy. Sometimes a therapist is needed when the source is deeply buried. But once the problem is found, most of my patients are energized and start making progress.
For Wavy Soul: The Good Partner/Bad Illness Syndrome occurs in people with terrible relationships in their past (especially in childhood) who finally meet someone who supports and cares for them. This causes great stress in the short term due to anxiety about whether you deserve this relationship and fear about the other person seeing the bad side of you and moving on. Most importantly, the more you decide you deserve this relationship the more anger and resentment you may feel about how you were treated in the past since the new relationship is such a contrast. Since most of my patients who are childhood stress survivors learned long ago how to repress negative emotions, anger about the past triggered by the new relationship ends up going into the body where it causes symptoms. Make sense? More on this in my book on p55-56 and 71-73. |
|
|
|
winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 16:18:58
|
Dr. Dave: I was with a Sarno therapist for nearly two years and uncovered many emotions, including a giant repressed "problem" or memory, and I think it made me worse. I'm in the middle of a harrowing relapse. I actually quit therapy (did not connect well w/the therapist + very expensive and didn't take insurance)and now I'm back on this blog. Time for a new therapist?! As you say, "once a problem is found, most of your patients are energized and make progress!"
I think Hillbilly is right on the money...that the pain results from built-up tension and it doesn't occur in a vacuum and that it has to do with fear. I think I know what I fear; I think I understand my past, my personality, I think I'm in touch with what's going on currently, but I still get stuck in these pain/anxiety grooves!! So I'm obviously deluding myself? I keep wondering if it all just boils down to having a rip-roaring case of OCD, and that treatment directed at that would provide relief? This "think psychological" idea has been tapped out I think in my case. Sometimes I feel like a puppy with a sore paw whose owners have cone a on her head, you know, I'm just biting and knawing at that cone, trying to soothe something...to no avail. |
Edited by - winnieboo on 12/11/2009 16:30:51 |
|
|
|
Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 17:36:05
|
| Hello Winnieboo. A minority of my patients, when they first uncover hidden stresses, it is very tough and they do feel temporarily worse. Many patients of mine need years of work with a therapist before they make significant progress. The last thing I want to imply is that any of this is easy. You might think about trying to find a therapist you feel comfortable with. That can make all the difference. My very best wishes. |
|
|
|
Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 17:41:34
|
Thanks Dr. Dave. I do have your book, and will reread that part.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
|
|
|
Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 19:00:09
|
quote:
Hillbilly, there you go again... As usual, 99% of what you are saying is consistent with TMS concepts. Sarno's approach didn't work for you, which is fine, but it does for many other people. You persist in splitting anxiety/fear from TMS, like the two things cannot be related, when they are in the vast majority of cases.
Dr. Z,
I'm not sure you have understood at all. I have never stated that TMS and anxiety conditions are different. I have stated over and over again that TMS (meaning muscle pain, the original, denotative meaning) is simply a symptom of the disorders commonly known variously as anxiety disorders, stress illness, nervous disorders, psychosomatic illness, functional illness, somatization, or conversion. The separation happened when Sarno stepped out on a limb with his distraction theory, reaching back into the dusty psychological texts of yore in an attempt to explain something that had been well-researched, well-documented, and treated effectively for decades.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
|
|
|
Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 00:50:43
|
| One more comment on the Good Partner/Bad Illness Syndrome. It is usually a relatively short term phenomenon in my experience, generally less than a year. If symptoms go on longer than that then in my experience it isn't really caused by the good partner, it is the ongoing unexpressed and/or unrecognized anger at the sources of childhood distress. |
|
|
|
skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 04:37:39
|
could good partner syndrome apply to a new family?
My first low back symptoms came on when my second of 3 children was born. Things were going well for me career wise and financially. And my wife was/is loyal, and my kids healthy.
Could the abandonment issues I had as a kid transferred to me as a father/hubby worrying inside about the bottom falling out at some point, in other words, my family was too good to be true, I was conditioned for something bad to happen? I could never relax, I always felt my free time had to be taken up with something productive, or strenuous excercise. Strenuous to the point where I was grasping for air, and gave it my all or it was a waste. Floor hockey without skates and basketball did it for me. Usually once to twice a week. The weeks I missed an outing of either, I noticed depression seeping in. It was like a drug or something. I became obsessed with weights out of guilt particularily squatting as I could totally exhaust myself physically, and then it was like a relief to me. Of course, I blamed the pain on all that weightlifting.
Now that I think of it, as I wrote here a week ago, the original symptoms caused me to slow down and appreciate what I had, and accept I was too old and frail (at 30 lol, I'm 37 now) and just be with my family when I'm not at work. I began having good and bad days, instead of constant pain in hindsight. So I stopped striving to get better (back pain wise, and self esteem wise) and just had fear of getting worse. Then of course read Sarno and I think was ready to be a book cure at that point since I had no expectations and Sarno was a pleasure to read.
When I say self esteem wise, I feel deep down like I have to keep improving, I think because I'm afraid of being alone as Baseball65 explained to me. I never realized it at the time though.
Sorry, rambling here.
|
Edited by - skizzik on 12/12/2009 04:45:48 |
|
|
|
Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 10:36:39
|
For Skizzik, your story fits very well with many patients of mine. Good Partner/Bad Illness Syndrome can occur in response to significant positive life events other than a new supportive relationship. For example, one patient of mine became ill after receiving the Employee of the Year award. Another after she received her PhD and adopted a child within a six month period.
The common denominator is the contrast between poor treatment as a child and a present-day life that is going great. Fear that the good times won't last and anger about not having had good times as a child all factor in to the creation of symptoms. Writing/journaling about your feelings regarding past mistreatment is a good approach to this. So is setting aside regular time every week for self-indulgence which helps make up for not getting this as a child and also teaches you essential self-care skills. You have good insight and it sounds like you are on the right track. |
|
|
|
Peg
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 14:55:19
|
I've enjoyed your blog as well Dr. Dave.
What you are saying makes a lot of sense. I've been thinking lately about the distraction theory. If a part of our mind wanted to protect us from frightening emotions, why wouldn't it try to accomplish this is a less painful way, such as using denial or pleasant distractions with fantasy. The pain seems like a punishment.
On the other hand, if we look at it as you have described, where the negative emotions are being expressed via the body, it would make sense that the physical symptoms are unpleasant, since the emotions are unpleasant as well. Conversely, when we are experiencing joy, happiness, satisfaction or are in a state of bliss, we have corresponding pleasant sensations in our body.
Hillbilly said: "TMS (meaning muscle pain, the original, denotative meaning) is simply a symptom of the disorders commonly known variously as anxiety disorders, stress illness, nervous disorders, psychosomatic illness, functional illness, somatization, or conversion. The separation happened when Sarno stepped out on a limb with his distraction theory, reaching back into the dusty psychological texts of yore in an attempt to explain something that had been well-researched, well-documented, and treated effectively for decades."
This seems to make sense, however I do not agree with the last part. I'm not sure how well-researched or well-documented these disorders are, but I certainly don't think that they have been treated effectively. If these things were true then I don't think we would have the epidemic of TMS/Stress Illness that we do today.
Peg
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei |
|
|
|
Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 20:32:12
|
| Peg, I agree with all the ideas you expressed. Though there has been a lot of research about depression, anxiety, childhood stress, post-traumatic stress etc it is not being used to benefit people who come to medical professionals seeking help. The result is an embarrassing blind spot in health care and an unconscionable amount of needless suffering. |
|
|
|
Dr Dave
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 10:22:54
|
| Hello Winnieboo. A minority of my patients, when they first uncover hidden stresses, it is very tough and they do feel temporarily worse. Many patients of mine need years of work with a therapist before they make significant progress. The last thing I want to imply is that any of this is easy. You might think about trying to find a therapist you feel comfortable with. That can make all the difference. My very best wishes. |
|
|
|
Peg
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 05:27:58
|
>"The result is an embarrassing blind spot in health care and an unconscionable amount of needless suffering."
Exactly.
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei |
|
|
|
Capn Spanky
112 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2009 : 15:40:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
But Dr. Dave, most here think that they are in pain not due to a nervous disorder as you speak about on your blog. They are ill, as they think due to reading Dr. Sarno, because of something dastardly and hidden in their unconscious.
How do you know what most people here think? That's not what I think. It seems like most of the folks around here are open to different approaches for treating mind-body ailments.
You have a lot of good things to say. It's unfortunate that you have to lace so much of it with your contempt for Dr. Sarno (which seems a little over the top). |
|
|
|
winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2009 : 16:39:51
|
After two years of trying to explain TMS to friends and family, I am ELATED that there is another name and in fact, another approach that is much easier to grab onto. Stress illness to me makes sense. It's completely logical. Sorry, but while the Sarno TMS theory was breakthrough, the Freudian aspect, at least in my opinion, was convoluted and even somewhat offensive. Psychosomatic has derogatory connotations and it's not necessary to wear that label to get well. Most of us can be so hard on ourselves in the first place that putting on the "psychosomatic" badge is far from helpful.
My TMS therapist was constantly reminding me that "I somatized" and that I was "punishing myself," etc. I left the day she told me that a new set of symptoms was "hysterical." (I really needed a root canal, by the way--oops..) Okay, I get it, I get me, but all the labels, and all the digging, and all the "understanding of my past" did little in the journey to change my behavior. Only made me feel more helpless and trapped.
How much better I would have felt with a slightly more compassionate approach. "These symptoms are your stress." How we handle stress is the bottom line in TMS or stress illness, or whatever semantics you choose. A behavioral change in the present day is what's needed to recover. I absolutely do not think you have to dig up the garbage of your past, journal, etc. For me, that approach was no magic bullet. |
Edited by - winnieboo on 12/16/2009 16:41:57 |
|
|
|
ammuni
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2009 : 20:10:36
|
I had debilitating FMS for a decade in my twenties. I was completely cured from implementing Dr. Sarno's approach in a period of 3 months. That was over twelve years ago. I don't understand all the controversy about his method. It either works for you or it doesn't. If it doesn't initially work for you, you have two choices: you can move on or you can keep trying. No need to tear his approach apart especially when thousands of people have been cured of back pain and other ailments by his approach.
Winnieboo writes: "A behavioral change in the present day is what's needed to recover. I absolutely do not think you have to dig up the garbage of your past, journal, etc. For me, that approach was no magic bullet."
Well, just because Dr. Sarno's approach didn't work for you, that doesn't mean it hasn't worked for many many other people. So it wasn't a magic bullet for you. That's fine. Then move on and find an approach that works for you.
Hillbilly writes: "But Dr. Dave, most here think that they are in pain not due to a nervous disorder as you speak about on your blog. They are ill, as they think due to reading Dr. Sarno, because of something dastardly and hidden in their unconscious....I do not believe in Sarno's teatment plan from firsthand experience. It is so nebulous I don't know how anyone can follow it. "
Wow, if that is what you think then what are you doing on this site? I thought this was a site to support people experiencing TMS using Dr. Sarno's approach to heal. I am a psychotherapist and would never describe his approach in the way you have.
Personally, I never thought I was ill because of something hidden in my unconscious nor would I tell that to clients suffering from TMS. It could very well have been that there was something in my unconscious that was hidden (if you believe in the unconscious then it's a given that there are things hidden). But I never needed to uncover what was hidden in the unconscious in order to heal. That is not Dr. Sarno's approach at all. What he says is that the physical pain one experiences is a distraction from one's affect. By focusing on one's affect (whatever those feelings may be), one thwarts this process. There is no longer a need in our psyche for a somatic expression of our affect because we are dealing directly with our emotions. (Granted, Dr. Sarno does state that some people need assistance in this process and he may recommend a psychotherapist but that occurs in a minority of people who undertake his approach).
I remember what it was like for me when I first used Dr. Sarno's method twelve years ago. I began to focus on what I was feeling everytime I had physical pain, and I really didn't realize how much anger, hurt, frustration, anxiety and fear I had not been expressing. I was an emotional fountain for awhile. The question for me was no longer how do I manage my physical pain but how do I manage my feelings? I had to find healthy ways to express my emotions. I was also one of those people that implemented Dr. Sarno's method 'cold turkey' as he suggests (meaning I stopped all treatments for my back pain and for my FMS).
In regards to Dr. Dave's theory and treatment, what is the controversy? He has a different theory then Dr. Sarno. If his treatment cures thousands of people of their ailments, that's fantastic. That will mean that there are more options for people who are suffering. If it doesn't cure people but simply eases their symptoms, then his clients may want to keep on searching for something that works and Dr. Dave may want to modify his theory and treatment.
Ammuni |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Linking Stresses and Symptoms
