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davec
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
 Posted - 11/12/2007 : 11:33:20
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hi truenorth
page 101 of the mind body prescription on tendonitus of the foot.
"because patients have a hard time accepting that foot pain is part of TMS it tends to linger."
hope this helps i'm still suffering!
regards davec |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2007 : 12:15:18
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| Thanks, davec, but I don't have tendonistis. Mine is more burning, feelings of numbness (but not actually numb) and hypersensitivity to touch. I have trouble wearing anything but Merrill slip-on mocs, with no socks. Ever. |
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K2toK9
29 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2007 : 13:46:23
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Truenorth,
Exactly.....painful burning feet....no socks....ever !! Do you truly believe that you have TMS ? When and how did it begin ? Mine began over 3 years ago following a complete hysterectomy. I thought that maybe a nerve got hit during surgery, but an operating nurse actually told me that it could have been my position on the operating table. Does your pain ever go away or is it constant ?
K2 to K9 |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2007 : 14:46:49
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K2toK9
Mine began in 2002, right around the time I decided to leave my wife after 22 years. I had no idea at first what it was but it was always connected to my back pain (stiffness more than anything). had the full medical workup, MRI's, etc. and was told by two specialists in NYC they saw nothing on film that would explain my pain. I had a spinal fusion in 1978 but was OK for over 20 years. I used to cycle 1500/miles year. Another Doc said i had tarsal tunnel. I asked him why I have no foot pain when my back was OK (rare). He had no answer. I knew it was bogus.
I've never been particularly preoccupied with a physical basis for the pain. The TMS made sense to me. But after SIX long years of trying and getting worse, doubts will creep in. I think I'm getting worse because I'm getting stiffer and more rigid in the trunk. It's a vicious cycle.
I have worked hard at the TMS work. Sarno said in June when I last saw him that my internal defenses are very good (too good).
The pain/numbness is constant, always in both feet. My right foot now feels numb when I drive or sit. I have trouble walking & standing but can do my almost daily Qigong workout.
I'm beginning therapy again with Don Dubin. He told me that 100% belief is not necessary. I'm sure the hard-core Nazis on this board will disagree but I'm sure I have a mix of physical and psychogenic pain. It's mostly psychogenic but I can't rule out some physical. After my fusion, I saw a famous back doctor, Hans Kraus. My back was medically OK but I had pain. He worked on my trigger points, taught me twenty exercises (based on the YMCA Healthy Back program) and I was OK for 20 years.
There's a lot more to this back pain than meets the eye. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2007 : 19:08:28
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Trigger points are activated by stress, in my experince. Having trigger points give pain doesn't mean that you have physical reasons for the pain.
No one believes anything 100%, but commitment is required, and I think allowing the belief "I have partly physical pain" to be your default belief (rather than one challenged regularly as part of the commitment to TMS work) is unlikely to lead to better results.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2007 : 19:29:04
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Armchair,
You're seeing only what you want to see from my posts. After all this time, I'm convinced that the TMS theory works for only a very select group. For some reason, it hasn't worked for me. I was committed 110% for years and did the work. Got zip from it, only worse. Any wonder why someone in my position would have questions after all this time?
I get tired of zealots like yourself who continually tell me I don't believe enough or haven't tried hard enough. Talk to me after you had six years of foot pain, where every step every day is painful. Unless you're a moron, I'm sure you would begin to look for other answers. As I've indicated, I beginning phone sessions with Don Dubin this week. |
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golden_girl
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2007 : 20:27:11
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K2toK9 - perhaps it WAS your hysterectomy but not in a physical sense, not that the surgery caused any physical problem - perhaps it was the emotional aspects of it which brought on the pain?
"F.E.A.R.
Forgive Everyone And Remember
For Everything A Reason",
Ian Brown |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2007 : 20:27:25
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I am not a zealot. I don't believe in 100% belief (heh). I believe that some people may have partly (or entirely in some rare cases) physical problems. I also believe that if you routinely tell yourself that part of your problem must be physical, you have no way of assessing whether what you are doing psychologically is working. You always have an 'out' mentally. You can never tell if it's not working because it's really physical or because you think it might be, or (confoundingly) because there is perhaps still something psychological that is difficult to access.
I find it notable that you can do Qi Gong but not walk and stand comfortably. Does that make sense, physically? It doesn't to me, but I could be off base.
I also find it interesting that you appear to be saying that you need to do back exercises for your back to be okay. This is contrary to Sarno and I suppose I am a bit firm on this point, because if we needed to do exercises to be okay, this would undermine one of the major points of TMS, namely that our body is resilient and adaptable and deals quite ably with our daily activities without any need for special help.
As for the trigger point matter, I mentioned that because my personal experience has been that trigger points can be activated by stress, and that having them (and having them treated) may not mean anything is or was wrong with your back at the time. Incidentally, have you tried trigger point treatment on the foot? If you are going to go physical, this would be a possible avenue to pursue. It was one of the more effective methods of temporary pain relief I tried.
I'd doubt if I were you, too. But in the end I think you have to make a choice. You said that nothing physical was found in your foot that can explain your pain. Doctors are excellent at finding things wrong with your body if there are any, even if they're 'normal abnormalities', so...what is traditional medical science going to do for you at this point?
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 07:54:12
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Attention foot and leg pain people...If you're here, and you've identified your personality as fitting the TMS profile, which is almost always the case...heed the tale of the brave lady who went to France. The people who get better around here are not the people who spend months and years, yes years, dithering around about whether or not their pain really is TMS...This will keep you stuck forever..
Believe it's TMS, or if you can't believe it, act as if you do. Ultimately, as long as this translates into challenging your pain, it amounts to the same thing...
You can and very likely will get better. But you need to do the hard work.
Is this absolutely guaranteed? No, of course not. But after hanging around this forum for a couple of years I can assure you it's an excellent bet..
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Edited by - art on 11/13/2007 08:07:09 |
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mamaboulet
181 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 08:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by art
Believe it's TMS, or if you can't believe it, act as if you do. Ultimately, as long as this translates into challenging your pain, it amounts to the same thing...
This is the point I keep making too. Doubt is human. If you wait for all doubt to go away, you will never make real progress. Start conditioning your brain and body to challenge rather than obsess, to push back rather than give in to the fear. You already know how programmable you are if you have TMS. Use that to your advantage. I heard somewhere that it takes 6 weeks to develop a habit. Choose to develop the habit of challenging, regardless of doubts. |
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K2toK9
29 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 09:35:42
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Hi GoldenGirl,
I am interested in what you said. I had the total hysterectomy because my Mom (who was my best friend) had died of ovarian cancer just 4 months prior. When tests were run on me, something showed up (twice) and so the surgery was done. So, yes there is emotional in many ways....but WHY my feet ?
K2toK9 |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 12:18:59
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| Truenorth: nazis? zealots? kudos to ACL for restraint in not responding in kind. Those are some pretty harsh words, and i understand that they are said in frustration, but you've got to understand that this frustration is your worst enemy--it's clearly working against you. Look at your own words and see that you have 100% doubt rather than belief--you say you are "sure" you have a mix of physical etc. You say you "cant rule out" the physical. This is 100% doubt, and it's the hurdle you're gonna have to cross or this is never gonna work for you. Don't even think of telling me the doubt came from the treatment not working--you refer to your own post about past experiences that you attribute to physical treatment (sounds placebo to me). ACL is totally correct, you've got to make a choice. If you think i'm coming from a quick-cure read-the-book and was better angle, reread my posts from the last 6 months. I was most resistent to the 'tough love' responses, but there is no doubt in my mind that those were the ones i needed to hear the most. I don't know what you've done to challenge your doubt, but it sounds like you can do certain physical activities, as ACL pointed out. I would venture a guess that if that's the case, you can do any physical activity without fear of injury or worsening the pain. Try putting aside the doubts and fear and give it a shot. |
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golden_girl
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 12:28:03
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K2toK9 - this is the list of life stresses given by Sarno as triggers for TMS:
From Dr Sarno's MindBody Prescription:
Many years ago New York psychiatrists Thomas Holmes and Richard Rahe studied the causative role of stressful life events “in the natural history of many diseases.” They reported on a list of these events, some of which were negative but many identified as socially desirable and “consonant with the American values of achievement, success, materialism, practicality, efficiency, future orientation, conformism and self-reliance.” The list is reproduced here. We postulate that these events produce “disease” through the mechanism of internal rage. The events are listed in order of decreasing stress:
1. Death of a spouse
2. Divorce
3. Marital separation
4. Jail term
5. Death of close family member
6. Personal injury or illness
7. Marriage
8. Fired at work
9. Marital reconciliation
10. Retirement
11. Change in health of family member
12. Pregnancy 13. Sex difficulties
14. Gain of a new family member
15. Business readjustment
16. Change in financial state
17. Death of a close friend
18. Change to different line of work
19. Change in number of arguments with spouse
20. Mortgage over $10,000 [in the 1960s]
21. Foreclosure of mortgage or loan
22. Change of responsibilities at work
23. Son or daughter leaving home
24. Trouble with in-laws
25. Outstanding personal achievement
26. Wife begins or stops work
27. Begin or end school
28. Change in living conditions
29. Revision of personal habits
30. Trouble with boss
31. Change in work hours or conditions
32. Change in residence
33. Change in schools
34. Change in recreation
35. Change in church activities
36. Change in social activities
37. Mortgage or loan less than $10,000
38. Change in sleeping habits
39. Change in number of family get-togethers
40. Change in eating habits
41. Vacation
42. Christmas
43. Minor violations of the law
So from what you've said, in the months prior to the onset of your pain, you had #5 and #6 - huge stresses in your life.
Why the feet? Maybe your mind thinks that would be the best place to create the pain? You say you do a lot of standing in your job as a teacher - perhaps foot pain creates more of a diversion from your emotions than say, wrist pain in a computer programmer who sits down all day but uses their hands?
"F.E.A.R.
Forgive Everyone And Remember
For Everything A Reason",
Ian Brown |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 12:32:18
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quote:
Truenorth: nazis? zealots? kudos to ACL for restraint in not responding in kind
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TN"s anger is palpable, even understandable...But what I don't get is why he continues to hang around when he believes the TMS approach works only for a lucky few...Why not just move on?
Agreed re: ACL...She's a model of restraint and I respect her for it...I could no doubt learn a few things... |
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lidge
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 13:53:06
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Sarno states he carefully screens his patients via telephone before making an appt. He states:
"After years of experience it is not difficult to determine whether someone is a good candidate for the program, and for those who are not, it is a kindness to them and to me to discourage them from making an appointment."
Apparently TrueNorth was accepted into the program. Am I wrong about that? If so,he must have fulfilled the criteria set forth by Sarno. What did Sarno have to say beyond "your defenses are too good"? Does he see that as insurmountable? Is there anything in his program that helps you overcome these defenses or does he just tell you to go to a psychotherapist?
I see no reason for TrueNorth to "move on" - he is in pain and trying to get help. 40 or so posts over the course of years is not exactly whining. He knows TMS works but is frustrated that he can't make it work for himself. If Sarno didn't tell him to "move on" why should anyone here?
I was watching Valerie Bertinelli (former pesky, er perky teenage actress) slam Britney Spears on TV - haughtily preaching how her parents kept her on an even keel during her teenage moneymaking years. Essentially she was blasting Britney Spears for not being her. For not having had the same emotional foundation that she apparently had.
My point (and I do have one) is that we all come to things from vastly different places as far as emotions, life experiences etc. Its arrogant and pointless to try to get someone else to experience anything the same way we do.
Sarno himself says some need a more nurturing atmosphere. I can't imagine why he would continue to see a patient if he didn't feel he could help him- am I missing something here? Does Sarno generally keep people as patients if they are not getting better?
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 16:13:51
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quote:
He knows TMS works but is frustrated that he can't make it work for himsel
I merely posed the question. He's stated, angrily, that in his opinion this works for only "a select few." If that's his opinion why hang around accusing people of zealotry for their perfectly reasonable belief in something that's worked for them, and thousands like them. This is, after all, a TMS forum. Guess what you're likely to run into around here....Perhaps people who believe in the efficacy of the TMS approach?
Again, I merely posed the question....
I've belonged to lots of forums along the way in an attempt to rid myself of various health problems...I don't still hang around the food allergy forum say, or the hypoglycemia forum, accusing those who espouse the respective party lines and the resident treatments of zealotry because they didn't work for me....I simply moved on...
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Edited by - art on 11/13/2007 16:20:12 |
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lidge
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 16:52:21
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[quote]Originally posted by art
[quote]
I've belonged to lots of forums along the way in an attempt to rid myself of various health problems...I don't still hang around the food allergy forum say, or the hypoglycemia forum, accusing those who espouse the respective party lines and the resident treatments of zealotry because they didn't work for me....I simply moved on...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
He's not you, Art. - I think you have to read between the lines. I don't think he believes it cannot work for him- he's just frustrated that after so long (and seeing Sarno to boot) he is still in pain. When it comes down to it, only he, Sarno and his therapists can really know the reason he is not getting better. I've had the back and leg pain for over six months and I'm ready to crack. I can imagine the place TrueNorth is in. Sometimes you have to meet people where they are- look past the words- pain can make you really pissy. And imagine how you might feel (as a believer) if you had seen Sarno himself and still were in pain after YEARS.
I'd love to know what Sarno said beyond "your defenses are strong"- but I can't blame TrueNorth if he chooses not to share it.
Good luck to you TrueNorth!
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 17:22:34
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Thank you lidge. You said it better than I could have and seem to have sensed my deep frustration with not getting better.
To everyone: I appreciate your help. Just know I have tried for years, believing all the way, doing the work big time, see a Sarno therapist. I challenge the pain all the time and even did 500 miles on my bicycle this year (not counting the 1000 miles I do commuting). My pain only gets worse.
Only in the last six months have doubts crept in. Even my therapist suggested revisiting the physical arena. After struggling with this months, I'm back 90% believing it's TMS, (sorry can't do 100% yet), which I why I'm going the psychotherapy route again.
When I last spoke to Sarno in June, he said my defenses were very strong and that he was 100% convinced I had TMS. He was supportive but had no clear answers on my lack of progress. |
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lidge
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 18:12:42
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TrueNorth-
I'm glad you came back!
In his books, Sarno makes alot of generalizations based upon his years treating thousands of patients- does he have absolutely no guidance to offer? Did you go through the whole program he describes in his books? |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 18:39:06
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lidge,
Sarno had no guidance to offer other than what I've already said. And yes, I went through his formal program twice, read all the books, wrote hundreds of pages of journal notes, made voice recordings, made lists, visited this site. I don't think I was obsessive about it-never more that 30-45 minutes a day.
The Sarno therapist I had was very wrong for me. She was too laid back. Based on what people have said, I hoping my phone session with Don Dubin will finally get me on the road to recovery. |
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Foot pain
