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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
 Posted - 11/13/2006 : 22:12:57
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Ha! I thought that N/A post was yours Tom! Something in the board must still have been messed after the weekend hacker got at it (unless you were being shy at that moment). 
So you're a survivor of significant depression . . . that's serious stuff too, though I haven't had significant clinical depression myself I know several folks who have, and at least three who never made it out of that dark-well to tell the tale. Two of them actually pegged themselves soon after being put on new antidepressants. The partner of one of them started a cross Canada awareness campaign about depression and the dangers in the medications that are supposed to help them. Cant help but get really really cynical about the pharmaceutical industry and the tragically inept abilities of mainstream medicine with this stuff.
On paper I can see how the symptoms of CFS can sound like those of depression, and any inexperienced or incompetent doctor could throw on whatever label fit their biases. Like you say, probably depended on what waiting room they're in. Though they are really quite distinct, and treated very differently at least in the mainstream medical way. I remember seeing a study back in the 90's comparing them. Among other things, they compared SPECT scans of brains of people with the two conditions, and showed how very different areas of the brain were affected. The scans were quite striking, different areas of the brain, different syndromes, yet as I recall they both involved loss of blood flow to the brain but to different areas. At least I think it was loss of blood flow, or hypofusion was the term, and that would make sense in light of Sarno's theories. I'll dig around and see if I still have that paper buried in some pile somewhere.
I suppose different theories could be put forth to explain the close mindedness of your aquaintance in the hot tub. Of course we'll never really know, but my guess based on my experience would be she was just burned out on trying new things, as nothing she'd tried in the past had ever helped her. There was a time when I just rolled my eyes at anyone who said they had the latest book or theory or concoction that would relieve my suffering. I'd seen too many doctors, had too many tests run, read too many get-well books, taken too many supplements, been sold too much snake oil, and tried too many treatments both mainstream and alternative to believe anyone who promised miracles if you only just try this . . . . . There had been too many disappointments, with the lesson being to just accept your illness, and dont waste any more time, energy and money hoping in vain to get well. In the end I did find approaches that really helped me, but a lot of folks just give up trying, or even hoping. It's sad, but it's partly out of cynicism, and partly as a defense against another promised 'cure' that in their eyes inevitably wont work, and will just cause more disappointment and probably empty an already vanishing bank account. |
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Logan
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2006 : 08:55:06
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Neurasthenia??!!
I thought that went out with the 19th century!
Anyone here remember reading "The Yellow Wallpaper" in high school or college?
It's a story about a woman whose physician husband treats her for neurasthenia (the old fashioned version of CFS) and essentially turns her into a bedridden prisoner. She goes crazy from the intense claustrophobia - she's essentially his prisoner in a dormer room with this terrible yellow wallpaper.
TMS has its detractors for sure; but every time I've read that story in a Lit class, most everyone agreed that this chick's problem was her controlling husband, the patriarchy, and her repressed anger and lack of self-agency.
Ah well, I guess like our own mindbody, the culture at large has to keep reinventing the symptoms to keep us from seeing "the man behind the curtain" or "the monster at the end of the book" or however you want to title the subconscious boogies that dog us all.
My local paper has published three recent articles about how PDA-Thumb is now a "real disease." I predict PDAT will be the new carpal tunnel. Just wait for it. The power of suggestion will intersect with all those stressed out, pissed off business people who can't put their PDAs down. And the lawyers and the chiropractors will rejoice! :)
I feel so lucky that I read and understood Sarno's books and that I cured myself from my own TMS pain.
All around me, in addition to PDAT and CFS, I see my undergrad students, fellow grad students and family all starting to succumb to the final exam/holiday pressure. I've had several students give me medical excuses for mono, back pain, sinusitis.
A cold rippled through the faculty twice already this year. I have been lucky and I have been trying to stay in touch with how I feel - angry, sad, fearful etc. I think this is why I have not been sick.
And my thumbs, wrists etc. feel fine despite all the typing I do! Probably because of all the typing I do...
Thanks Dr. Sarno! |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2006 : 09:31:43
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| Right on Logan. This morning CNBC did a story on a new disease, "Blackbery Thumb". A hotel chain is even offering hand massages for stricken business travelers. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2006 : 11:07:33
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An osteopath I saw said he was seeing teenagers with thumb pain from sending 50-60 text messages a day. TMS finding a new home in today's stressed-out teens... :(
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2006 : 14:03:00
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quote:
Originally posted by TT
She said she could not hold a book to read it...I suggested her husband hold the book for her...she rolled her eyes...I suggested she hire a high-school kid to hold the book for her...she declined that idea also. I surmised that she needed her TMS/Fibro pain and no suggestion I would make to her would prevnet her from trying her best to hang on to it. That she had great strength and energy for.
Boy, TT, this paragraph really hit home with me. I see this in so many people, some of whom are on this board.
I believe part of it is the "How dare you flippantly suggest a cure for me when you don't know the depths of my pain, and you haven't spent years trying to find a cure? How dare you feel like you have anything to teach me." You're right, they have great strength and energy for stamping out your suggestions.
I was a little bit this way about my condition when people would suggest basic therapies and surgeries. I HAD tried most everything else, and the first person to suggest Sarno to me was all I needed.
I have to warn the CFS/Fibro people on the board who say, "But wait, we're different." I would hate to condemn yourself to TMS not working for you, or only working part way for you. What about the plucky Fibro sufferer who has decided it's TMS, and by God he won't be dissuaded, and then he comes on this board looking for support, and finds fellow CFS/Fibro sufferers saying "Nope, we're different!"
I couldn't do that to somebody.
Ok, let her rip.
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2006 : 15:29:59
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Nice one, Beth.
quote:
(PeterW)
Of course we'll never really know, but my guess based on my experience would be she was just burned out on trying new things, as nothing she'd tried in the past had ever helped her. There was a time when I just rolled my eyes at anyone who said they had the latest book or theory or concoction that would relieve my suffering.
You hit the nail on the head, Peter. I found it irritating when people who knew nothing about RSI felt they had to make suggestions to me (“Have you tried putting a bandage on it?” kind of thing.)
I’m also a former CFS sufferer. (I definitely wasn’t depressed and I recovered before I’d heard of TMS, but would have treated it as that if I had it now.)
TT et al, I love the posts about eating dirt!
Hilary N |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2006 : 09:12:38
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quote:
You hit the nail on the head, Peter. I found it irritating when people who knew nothing about RSI felt they had to make suggestions to me (“Have you tried putting a bandage on it?” kind of thing.)
I’m also a former CFS sufferer. (I definitely wasn’t depressed and I recovered before I’d heard of TMS, but would have treated it as that if I had it now.)
Yep it got to the point when it got pretty annoying, everybody coming with their 2c worth of advice. Much of it well intentioned on some level, but often with a patronizing flavour, and sometimes just plain foolish or naive.
Thankfully I didn't tune out completely though. It's sad that so many do that, and miss out on something like Sarno that has helped so many others.
But I personally dont buy into this theory of people clinging to their illness or pain because they decide they need it or want it, at least for most. Sarno never suggests anything like that in all his books, and forcefully shoots down the 'secondary gain' motivations for being ill or in pain that have become so in vogue. These folks may feel defeated, hopeless even, but most would pursue getting better a second if they really thought there was a way. It's just they've already spent too much energy looking for help (probably in all the wrong places), and have unfortunately given up. Or in Zen terms, learned to accept their lot in life that they believe they cant change.
We can only hope that they'll sometime give consideration to this approach, but they've got to arrive there on their own time and terms. That I totally agree with.
BTW Hilary, I'm curious, did you recover from CFS . . . and then develop RSI?? Was the 'symptom imperative' working with you? |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2006 : 10:34:40
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Dr. Sarno in his latest book expands on his view that psychosomatic pain symptoms are a "protective" device. That our unconscious perceives the pain as preferable to the expression of the underlying anger/rage emotion from being consciouly expressed. This does NOT mean that our unconscious is RIGHT by doing this--it's just the way it is.
TMS "knowledge" as theroized by the Good Doctor makes us "conscious" of this unconscious process so that we may learn to have some say or control over it. We can then change our behavior or accept what is going on around us that we may not have control over.
Someone here, (thank you), said that 95% of our brain's operate on the unconscious level, so it seems that we have little conrol over what's going on in the long run and are doomed to be mostly reacitve to life's slings and arrows. When we try to break out of the norm, we feel the societal coercion to conform and the need to repress our urges. Being a non-conformist in our society will generally not get you very far unless you are outrageously good at it.
It's kind of like eating from the apple in the Garden of Eden. It can be a two-edged sword. But it puts the ball in our hand and we can play the ball rather than the ball playing us.
I think much of this repressive behavior is a due to our society. We are subject to many written laws as well as the un-wriiten laws of PC that are constantly changing. We have come to a point where it is safer to repress than express.
Whatever we say or do today, there will probably be some group that will take offence and jump down our throats. Perhaps this is why public speaking is the number one fear of most people. It's safer to take no position or wait until there is a consensus of opinion and hop on board then.
About the only group that has total license to act-out are the "artists". Due to their "special" place in society they can act-out under the guise of artistic expression. I've noticed a trend of post-menopausal women taking art classes and becoming "wanna-be" artists. They are no longer Realtors-they are now "artists". Perhaps this is in reaction to all the years of repression they have endured. Women settle their differences in a more passive-aggressive way than men. They smile at each other while really masking their disdain--it's a little dance. Men just shut up or shoot.
Well I've digressed a bit on this sociological tangent but I think my point was that TMS is a protective device from perceived (anti-social) emotional confrontations/explosions. It doesn't mean it's right, or good for us, it's just the way it is.
We are a product of our society and can't help being influenced by it consciously and unconsciously. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 11/15/2006 10:43:10 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2006 : 11:26:03
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PeterW, thanks for those good points you made about how some forms of TMS are not really "harmless" in an immediate or long-term sense (as for CFS and depression). It's a good tip for talking to people, and very true.
I've also found that being too invested in spreading the Sarno word is bad for me in the long run. And collectively it could be bad for all of us not just for that reason, but because persistent attempts to "prosyletize Sarno" can really turn people off. Hopefully if we live our healthy lives, people will be convinced by example. (I came to this idea recently, thinking about how I react to other forms of prosyletizing, vs. to people living their lives well by example.)
I definitely got a sort of new-treatment fatigue after a while. It took more and more to convince me that a road was worth going down -- basically, only glowing testimony from someone who had been there and clearly knew what they were talking about would convince me to try something. I think that's why the SuccessStory concept is so helpful. People tell their story, which amounts to sharing their "credentials" -- why they are worth listening to -- and then say "I was cured by this."
It used to really annoy me when clueless or less-experienced people would tell me to try wrist splints (BTDT), or ask if there wasn't a pain medicine I could be taking (no -- bleeding stomach anyone?), or just read this book, don't you know anything about arm anatomy and RSI theory? (Um, yes, I know pretty much every bone, muscle, and nerve between my neck and my wrist, and all the things that are supposedly wrong with them.) So I generally don't expect much when I recommend Sarno or anything else (even though it doesn't stop me from hoping that these nice people will finally be able to stop suffering).
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2006 : 13:33:56
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quote:
Someone here, (thank you), said that 95% of our brain's operate on the unconscious level, so it seems that we have little conrol over what's going on in the long run and are doomed to be mostly reacitve to life's slings and arrows. When we try to break out of the norm, we feel the societal coercion to conform and the need to repress our urges. Being a non-conformist in our society will generally not get you very far unless you are outrageously good at it.
A lot of good points Tom, that one in particular really rings true to me. I know I was a non-conformist deep down but grew up repressing my true needs and wants, trying my best to conform and fit in for peer approval and all that. I wonder how many other TMSers this applies to. In my case I think society expectations and peer groups in those awful Jr high and high school years left quite a mark.
I also grew up being afraid of public speaking, of ruffling feathers, and in public took the most popular concensus of opinion, for safety's sake. I know I wasn't alone, even back in Grade 9 I distinctly remember our English teacher constantly challenging us to think for ourselves and to express different views, she was always frustrated that everyone in the class just chimed along with what everyone else thought. "You just think as one group, you're afraid to think as individuals" she always told us. That age group can be brutal for demanding conformity.
quote:
PeterW, thanks for those good points you made about how some forms of TMS are not really "harmless" in an immediate or long-term sense (as for CFS and depression). It's a good tip for talking to people, and very true.
Thanks ACL, that's exactly the point I was trying to make with all my ramblings.
quote:
It's just they've already spent too much energy looking for help (probably in all the wrong places), and have unfortunately given up. Or in Zen terms, learned to accept their lot in life that they believe they cant change.
To add to my own thoughts there, they may have the whole acceptance forgiveness 'this is my life and I'm at peace with it all' thing down pat, and really believe that on the surface, but who knows what is really lurking down there in that unconscious 95% of the brain they cant access. |
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MikeJ
United Kingdom
75 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2006 : 15:35:09
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quote:
"I've also found that being too invested in spreading the Sarno word is bad for me in the long run. And collectively it could be bad for all of us not just for that reason, but because persistent attempts to "Proselytize Sarno" can really turn people off. Hopefully if we live our healthy lives, people will be convinced by example. (I came to this idea recently, thinking about how I react to other forms of prosyletizing, vs. to people living their lives well by example.)"
I definitely got a sort of new-treatment fatigue after a while. It took more and more to convince me that a road was worth going down -- basically, only glowing testimony from someone who had been there and clearly knew what they were talking about would convince me to try something. I think that's why the SuccessStory concept is so helpful. People tell their story, which amounts to sharing their "credentials" -- why they are worth listening to -- and then say "I was cured by this."
Armchairlinguist, that's a very good point and I fully agree. I thought about it, and I don't like being proselytized either. When someone first suggested a psychological cause, I simply ignored it and harbored resentment. I really believe the best way, as you suggested, is through success stories. The soft approach is probably the most effecient; examples of people living their lives well, and the steps they took to get there. I can't think of a better way to make people more apt to listen, as opposed to a patronizing "I know what's wrong with you" tone. |
Edited by - MikeJ on 11/15/2006 15:35:36 |
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CFS in the News
