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Nor
152 Posts |
 Posted - 11/07/2006 : 20:02:27
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This is getting so silly. I don't understand why some people on this forum take things so personally? (I am not pinpointing you only, Shortcake. I've seen it many times before.) We are here to support one another. If you don't like something someone has said, ignore it. Very simple. Nobody here is bullying or abusive. We are a large group of people covering both genders, a vast age range and geographical representation. We can't all be best buddies. Why do you join a forum if not to get different opinions? Some are helpful. Some are not. Any time we share personal information, we expose ourselves to both welcome and offensive advice.
Nor
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2006 : 21:00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Nor
This is getting so silly. I don't understand why some people on this forum take things so personally? (I am not pinpointing you only, Shortcake. I've seen it many times before.) We are here to support one another. If you don't like something someone has said, ignore it. Very simple. Nobody here is bullying or abusive. We are a large group of people covering both genders, a vast age range and geographical representation. We can't all be best buddies. Why do you join a forum if not to get different opinions? Some are helpful. Some are not. Any time we share personal information, we expose ourselves to both welcome and offensive advice.
Nor
Well said Nor, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Regards,
tt |
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miche
Canada
283 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 00:14:20
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Jeff, I appreciate the info on lyme but I must admit that I am somewhat baffled.....if one has antibodies one has to have been exposed, once exposed one needs antibiotics, lyme does not go away on its own as far as I know, can you clarify?
Regards, Miche |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 01:03:20
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quote:
We are here to support one another. If you don't like something someone has said, ignore it
Hmmmm, how often do we hear this on this board.
If we were all logical, unemotional robots then it would be easy to ignore responses you dislike and no one would dash off an emotional reply without careful thought.
However, the reason most of us have TMS is due to illogical beliefs, bad reactions and extreme thoughts.
If you think someone has over-reacted to advice honestly given then assume they are going through a difficult time and let it go.... give them a break.
- anyway the angry replies make the board more interesting! |
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Nor
152 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 04:55:36
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You are right, Scottydog. I just see it as such a shame to waste time bickering when you can be working on the real stuff. We've all wasted enough time w/our pain(s).
Maybe its b/c I didn't grow up w/relationships online - I find it pretty easy to say, "Okay, this person is a stranger to me. I am not offended." Plus, extreme and contrary statements are sometimes the most helpful b/c they force you to view things at a different angle. The computer vs. live conversation makes it less threatening.
For instance, right now I am wondering if maybe my displeasure w/conflict on this forum is simply just reflective of conflict in general. Thanks for indirectly pointing that out to me, Scottydog! |
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Jeff
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 07:43:18
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Miche, I'm probably out of my depth on the Lyme issue, but here is my understanding. Many people carry around in their systems some Lyme antibodies, and yet they have no symptoms and are not considered to have Lyme disease. When you take the test for Lyme disease, it is only if you have a level of antibodies over a certain threshold that you are considered to have Lyme disease. I think establishing that threshold is somewhat subjective. Hence, if a doctor is struggling to come up with a diagnosis, and a patient tests positive for some Lyme antibodies, the doctor may use a lower threshold and begin Lyme treatments even though other people with the same level of Lyme antibodies would not be diagnosed with Lyme disease. Does that make sense? I had tests for Lyme disease and was told that my level of antibodies was below the threshold, and so I didn't have Lyme disease. I don't know how close I came to the threshold, to be honest.
Jeff |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 08:02:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Scottydog
[quote]
However, the reason most of us have TMS is due to illogical beliefs, bad reactions and extreme thoughts.
If you think someone has over-reacted to advice honestly given then assume they are going through a difficult time and let it go.... give them a break.
- anyway the angry replies make the board more interesting!
Well said SD, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Regards,
tt |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 08:57:39
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I'm no Luis Pasteur but let me take a crack at this Lyme thing. Having anti-bodies for a disease in your blood is like getting innoculated for small-pox or polio. Minute amounts of live or dead bits of the disease are injected or swallowed into the body by doctors or at clinics like flu-shot day at Walgreens. They are such small qunatities that the body does not get sick from it but instead builds up an immunity to it through the immune sytem (the white blood cells or fagocytes). The Salk Institute makes stuff like this.
Homeopathic medicine uses this theory of swallowing trace amounts of things bad for you to build up the immune system. The only problem with these tiny sugar pills that you buy at health food stores is they are labeled supplements and not regulated by anybody. I personally don't think there is anything in these tiny candy pills and the people who prescribe them are quacks.
That's why whenever I have an opportunity I eat things that have fallen on the floor. It gives me an opportuity to build-up my immune system. I feel people who are neuroticly obsessively cleanly and concerned with germs and disease everywhere are in reality doing themselves a disservice by not naturally building up their immune systems to things they may encounter someday in the real world.
If you test positive for things like Lyme or Valley Fever it doesn't mean you are sick necessarily, only that at some point you encountered the disease, maybe as a kid and your immune sytem fought it off and built up an immunity.
I have met two people who said they had Lyme. They were both in high pressure situtations and I came to the armchair conclusiion they had
TMS instead. I often hike at a mountain near me that is rumored to have Lyme ticks. I never give it a thought and have had no ill-effects. If I were bummed out and came back from a hike and found a bite on my leg and then got psychosomatic symptoms I may attribute it to Lyme.
If there are any immunologists out there feel free to correct me on any of this stuff, it's only been about 30 years since I took that class.
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 10:46:30
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I came to the armchair conclusion they had TMS instead.
I have done lots of armchair diagnoses myself. Maybe I should change my name to ArmchairTMSist! :-)
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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Nor
152 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 15:41:23
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First of all, tt, my lab retriever agrees w/you about eating food off the floor...she hasn't needed a sick visit to the vet in a few years now!
About the Lyme thing...regarding TMS and lyme, remember Sarno's thoughts on the mind looking for a weak point to impose TMS symptoms. If your mind is looking for a place to put TMS and you have lyme antibodies - even below the clinical threshold - your mind may use that as a great way to manifest TMS. Just like a herniated disc that would normally be asymptomatic.
Nor |
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MikeJ
United Kingdom
75 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 04:56:37
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| miehnesor: I'd love to help. I also have a few friends with TMS on livejournal who could probably help. |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 07:18:35
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
That's why whenever I have an opportunity I eat things that have fallen on the floor. It gives me an opportuity to build-up my immune system. I feel people who are neuroticly obsessively cleanly and concerned with germs and disease everywhere are in reality doing themselves a disservice by not naturally building up their immune systems to things they may encounter someday in the real world.
Tom, I thought I was the only one who did this !! I'm with you and the Labrador Retriever, a little dirt and grime now and again can only make me stronger. Bring on the germs.
Beth |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 08:03:25
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MikeJ
United Kingdom
75 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 10:37:23
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If I want to boost my immune system, I'd rather take a hot bath!
quote:
Research shows that baths are not only great for unwinding and soaking away the stresses of the day, they can also play an important role in boosting your immune system, help skin conditions like eczema and even alleviate serious medical disorders.
One study, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, showed that diabetics who spent just half an hour in a hot tub could reduce their blood sugar levels by around 13 per cent - as the heat dilated their blood vessels, blood-flow improved and the body made better use of its insulin, the hormone that converts blood sugar into energy.
A separate Japanese study showed that 10 minutes in a warm bath improved cardiovascular health in elderly men and women, helping them to cope better in exercise tests and reducing pain.
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 13:26:35
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Ooh, that makes me want to take a hot bath right now.
I never liked baths for cleaning up, but I like to get in the bath, and just kind of relax and float away.
Afterwards I kind of feel like every bad thing is coming out through my pores. Sounds like that might be true!
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2006 : 22:51:57
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
That's why whenever I have an opportunity I eat things that have fallen on the floor. It gives me an opportuity to build-up my immune system. I feel people who are neuroticly obsessively cleanly and concerned with germs and disease everywhere are in reality doing themselves a disservice by not naturally building up their immune systems to things they may encounter someday in the real world.
Had to laugh. But methinks there's some truth to this as well.
A few years ago I remember coming across a nutritional supplement of 'homeostatic soil organisms' - a probiotic that was supposed to give you back the natural beneficial bacteria from soil and dirt that we dont get anymore with our superhygenic lifestyles. But I figured why not save the 50 bucks or whatever and go play in the dirt for an afternoon.
OK this post started as a couple lines but my inner goodist and inner legalist got the best of me and I just got carried away again, so here goes another thesis . . . to do with the challenge of trying to get CFS and Fibro people to consider the TMS approach.
Speaking as someone who was living the CFS real life nightmare during the early 90's, I can truthfully say that there's no possible way to explain how bad it is to someone who has never experienced it. There are different severities of CFS, just like everything, but for the more severe cases the term 'chronic fatigue' is really a joke. The symptoms and physiological changes go way beyond fatigue, including for me blood pressure that dipped below 80/50 at one point and made it impossible to even stand up. For a year I was so weak that I often couldn't even chew my own food.
At this extent of 'super TMS' I really dont think it's fair or accurate to claim that the symptoms are harmless, and that's something that folks keen on spreading the TMS /Sarno word need to understand before approaching hardcore CFS/Fibro sufferers, especially if what you've recovered from is more the garden variety TMS stuff. I would suggest that if your inner goodist wants to help these folks make the leap into Sarno's world, then you'd greatly help your chances if you made some effort to truly understand their world.
Heck there probably isn't a medical condition that's been so maligned and misunderstood in the last century. They as a group have had it up to here with doctors and family members telling them 'it's all in your head' blablabla ad nauseum, and immediately put up the defenses at the mere whiff of that suggestion. And no wonder. And I know that's not what we're saying, but they'll probably still hear it that way initially.
I can also readily see how CFS/Fibro folks could not possibly comprehend the possibility that the unconscious mind could be responsible for generating all those physiological changes - the endocrine and nervous system and immune and digestive disruptions, and all that intense pain. It's been a slow process for me, and there's still a part of me that shakes my head and thinks that it's utterly ludicrous to believe that the mindbody could seemingly sabotage itself that badly. But, as we know . . . yup, it can. And if something like this is a severe TMS equivalent, well pretty well anything could be mindbody generated in my opinion.
Brings to mind a book I heard about on this forum last year - 'When the Body Says No', by Dr Gabor Mate, a Vancouver M.D. He talks about the stresses, resentments and hidden angers in people's lives and documents how it can contribute to all sorts of havoc in the body - cancers, MS, ALS. There's a fascinating chapter about Stephen Hawking, the reknowned physicist with ALS. It's frightening stuff too, but as Tom said on another thread, those of us already familiar with TMS who have developed reasonable emotional awareness shouldn't worry ourselves, these types of severe illnesses usually strike people who have been professional repressors all their lives.
BTW I'd say the same about the typical CFS and Fibro patients, at least the ones I've known - probably spent a lifetime repressing, with goodist, perfectionist, super driven, super consciencious personalities, and highly sensitive to boot.
The good news is that CFS is not progressive like those other diseases and is reversable. I know a lot of people who have recovered from it to varying degrees, some mainly by various physical/nutritional means and the standard stress reduction stuff. I focussed on that for a decade and did quite well. But I can also say that the people I've known who have completely recovered all went well beyond that and did serious internal and emotional work.
In the end, I've come to believe that even though Sarno may not have every detail right, he (as well as Reverse Therapy in the UK) is zeroing on the underlying mindbody mechanisms that trigger CFS and Fibro far more than anything else I've come across. If you have these conditions and are looking at this TMS stuff and wondering how it possibly applies, I urge you to read Sarno's TMS personality type, as well as the profile descibed in Elaine Aron's book 'The Highly Sensitive Person', and you'll probably see yourself stamped all over those pages. Check it out with honesty and an open mind, and you may be surprised at what you uncover. |
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floorten
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 03:15:57
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quote:
A few years ago I remember coming across a nutritional supplement of 'homeostatic soil organisms' - a probiotic that was supposed to give you back the natural beneficial bacteria from soil and dirt that we dont get anymore with our superhygenic lifestyles. But I figured why not save the 50 bucks or whatever and go play in the dirt for an afternoon.
LOL. You have to laugh at our modern lifestyle when you can now buy pills containing "essence of dirt", so you yourself don't ever need to get your hands dirty!
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"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 08:59:55
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quote:
Originally posted by floorten
quote:
A few years ago I remember coming across a nutritional supplement of 'homeostatic soil organisms' - a probiotic that was supposed to give you back the natural beneficial bacteria from soil and dirt that we dont get anymore with our superhygenic lifestyles. But I figured why not save the 50 bucks or whatever and go play in the dirt for an afternoon.
LOL. You have to laugh at our modern lifestyle when you can now buy pills containing "essence of dirt", so you yourself don't ever need to get your hands dirty!
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"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson
I knew I should have put a patent on it, I could have called it something like "DIRT-A-CEUTICALS". None the less, I would like to sign up and be a distributor so I could pyramid market it to my "friends". What's the calorie count? |
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n/a
1 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 10:03:19
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"OK this post started as a couple lines but my inner goodist and inner legalist got the best of me and I just got carried away again, so here goes another thesis . . . to do with the challenge of trying to get CFS and Fibro people to consider the TMS approach."
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Good post and thesis PeterW, you made many good points. It's diificult for people to empathize without having been in someone's shoes. It's like the saying goes, "Walk a mile in someone's shoes, then run like hell and you have a pair of new shoes."
But seriously now, I don't feel it's my job to spread the word on TMS. And from my experiences it would only lead to frustration, anger, repression and deepen my TMS reservoir.
Dr. Sarno, in [u]THE DIVIDED MIND[/u], builds on Freud's mapping of the mind's functioning with the idea of psychosomatic pain being a "protective device" rather than a "punisher". Maybe we here are the "mutant genes" that aren't going along with our specie's program and accepting our physical/affective TMS equivalents?
Maybe we are contrarian in-grates for not going along with the unconscious's porgram to stop us from throwing things at our "loved ones" and instead internalizing our angst.
I can empathize with CFS/Fibro/TMS. I experienced "significant depression" recently and while helplessly floating down the dark-well
could recognize the overlapping symptoms and figured that I could just as easily be diagnosed with those two disorders if I sat in the "right/wrong" waiting room.
The job of proselytizing TMS is the medical community's. They are the ones who get paid for healing people and are not being held to task for their monumental failure at that job. I would especially pick out all the dime-store "shrinks" being pumped out of match-book cover Psycho-Colleges. You would think psycho-therapists would be the first to embrace psychosomatic-TMS conditions. But my experiences in the hot-tubs of Southern Marin proselytizing the Good Doctor had found psychotherapists to be the most resistant to it and the first to line [i]themselves[/i] up for hip-replacements.
Psychotherapists are in such need to qualify themselves as true medical "technicians" that they align themselves with surgeons at the drop of a scalpal. Therapists must have an inferiority complex for not being a psychiatrist they cannot even RX meds. They are in effect empathizers or "paid friends" who listen without much meaningful, useful comment.
I recall a few years back after reading Dr. Sarno's first book [u]MIND OVER BACK[/u], encountering a lady in a hot-tub in Norhtern Mairn who said she had Fibro. She moved very slowly and I could immediately sense she had some condition. I proselytized Sarno to her to no avail. She said she could not hold a book to read it...I suggested her husband hold the book for her...she rolled her eyes...I suggested she hire a high-school kid to hold the book for her...she declined that idea also. I surmised that she needed her TMS/Fibro pain and no suggestion I would make to her would prevnet her from trying her best to hang on to it. That she had great strength and energy for. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2006 : 18:31:33
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quote:
Originally posted by PeterW
"OK this post started as a couple lines but my inner goodist and inner legalist got the best of me and I just got carried away again, so here goes another thesis . . . to do with the challenge of trying to get CFS and Fibro people to consider the TMS approach."
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Good post/thesis PeterW, you made many good points. It's diificult to empathize without having been in someone's shoes. It's like the saying goes, "Walk a mile in someone's shoes, then run like hell and you have a pair of new shoes."
But seriously, I don't feel it's my job to spread the word on TMS. And from my experiences it only leads to frustration, anger, repression and deepening the TMS reservoir.
Dr. Sarno, in THE DIVIDED MIND, builds on Freud's mapping of the mind's functioning with his theory that psychosomatic pain is a "protective device" rather than a "punisher". Maybe we TMS devotees are the "mutant genes" not going along with the majority of our specie's program and embracing our physical/affective TMS equivalents?
Maybe we are contrarian in-grates for not going along with the unconscious's program to stop us from throwing things at our "loved ones" and instead internalizing our angst.
I can empathize with CFS/Fibro/TMS. I experienced "significant depression" recently and while helplessly floating down the dark-well
could recognize the overlapping symptoms and figured that I could just as easily be diagnosed with CFS or Fibro if I sat in the "right/wrong" waiting room.
The job of proselytizing TMS is the medical community's. They are the ones getting paid for healing people. The medico/psycho professionals are not being held to task for their monumental failure at there job. I would especially pick out all the dime-store "shrinks" being pumped out of match-book cover Psycho-Colleges.
You would think psycho-therapists would be the first to embrace psychosomatic-TMS conditions. But my experiences in the hot-tubs of Southern Marin proselytizing the Good Doctor's theory has found psycho-therapists to be the most resistant to it and the first to line up for hip-replacements.
Psycho-therapists are so needy to qualify themselves as "technicians" that they align themselves with surgeons at the drop of a scalpal. Therapists must have an inferiority complex not being psychiatrists and not being able to prescibe RX meds. They are in effect "empathizers" or "paid friends" who listen without much meaningful, useful comment.
I recall a few years back after reading Dr. Sarno's first book MIND OVER BACK, encountering a lady in a hot-tub in Norhtern Mairn who said she had Fibro. She moved very slowly and I could immediately sense she had some condition. I proselytized Sarno to her to no avail. She said she could not hold a book to read it...I suggested her husband hold the book for her...she rolled her eyes...I suggested she hire a high-school kid to hold the book for her...she declined that idea also. I surmised that she needed her TMS/Fibro pain and no suggestion I would make to her would prevent her from trying her best to hang on to it. That she had great strength and energy for.
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Edited by - tennis tom on 11/12/2006 19:03:03 |
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