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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2005 : 11:24:09
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Whenever you are aware of the symptoms, the idea is to ignore those symptoms and instead focus on negative psychological issues.
For example, I get a twinge of back pain. I say to myself, "OK, what's bothering me today?" I think about my job, my relationships, etc. The idea is to find something that I don't realize is bothering me. That's the stuff of TMS -- the stuff that eats away at you inside, yet you are not consciously aware of.
Maybe your boss got the recognition for a project that you worked hard on. At the time you just don't realize how much that hurts. But when you force yourself to think deeply about it, you realize that there is tremendous anger directed at your boss. And when you think even deeper, you get angry at your whole job situation, because you never get the recognition you deserve. And when you think even deeper, you are angry at yourself for not leaving the job, because you are afraid that you might not be able to find another job, and then you would fail to make money and support your family. And when you follow that thought even deeper, you find low self-esteem ... a deep-seeded feeling that you are not good enough, that you are a loser for sticking with a job that you hate, that your wife doesn't respect you for being such a wimp, that your daughter will grow up not respecting her dad, etc. etc. etc.
This is a totally hypothetical situation, of course. But it illustrates the idea. When you follow the path of emotions, one thought leads to another ... eventually you get to the raw anger or sorrow or fear or whatever it is that is troubling you. You've forgotten all about the symptoms. And your brain gets the message that the symptoms are no longer serving as a distraction; that you will think about these negative emotions anyway. Eventually, it gives up the strategy because it is no longer working.
This is not easy, it takes hard work and focus. You are conditioned thoroughout your entire life to run away and hide from these feelings, and not to experience them. You need to undo that conditioning and force yourself to try to experience them instead of repressing them. By using the symptoms as a trigger to start this process of introspection, you are, slowly but surely, breaking the habit of repression. |
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 11:47:48
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But you dont have to express them, yelling primal screams or anything?
The problem is now at present, all my internal thinking is about the afflictions and the grief its causing me, and the symptoms are constant.
So throughout the day, im thinking about,"i cant take this pain anymore,im never getting better, might as well give up. etc.
I really dont think im thinking of unrelated issues, its all around that.
When i think of past issues its a different story. When my daugther was first born, my wife was jealous and unsharing with my daughter.Every evening she would be furious with me or my mother for something. She felt the baby and i were closer, and she was being left out.She had her own issues and was quite the madwoman for some time. I tried reason, but every day she would take everything out on me. I told her then, you are making our lives a living hell, in what should be a great time. Now. what do i do with that? Yell at my wife for it to get it off my chest years later? Or is just thinking of it enough?
Another similar thing happened close to my attacks. I already had the colitis thing going, my business was bad. My wife decides its time to go to Disneyworld with my daughter. This lead me to severe self beating, cant go bowel problems, business will suffer or worse,
have to go be there with my daughter etc.etc. I tortured myself over it for weeks, day and night without solution. So i decide to stay, let them go, ill take care of the business etc. I drive them to the airport, take one look at my daughters face which was sad, and then it happened.My heart felt like a 300 lb weight, my stomach turned, i felt like i was passing out, couldnt breathe, couldnt open the airport door..this was my first panic attack. It lasted about twenty minutes, then it started happening at doctors offices etc.etc.
I was o.k. for a week when they returned, then the bowels symptoms went haywire, and i got neuropathy in my arms and legs.
So,
What do i do with this issue? yell at my wife, you should have waited etc etc. or just think about the issue, Im just asking for some direction again.
thanks
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 13:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by aorta
But you dont have to express them, yelling primal screams or anything?
The rage that causes TMS is unconscious; it cannot be felt. But some people find it useful to express conscious anger. First of all, by venting conscious anger it prevents it from being repressed. Second, expressing the anger could open the door to discovering deeper emotions that are being obscured.
quote:
The problem is now at present, all my internal thinking is about the afflictions and the grief its causing me, and the symptoms are constant.
It is important to understand that these thoughts are equivalent symptoms. Thinking about the symptoms, or fearing new symptoms, is just as distracting as the symptoms themselves. It serves the same purpose as far as the brain is concerned.
You cannot say that the rage is caused by the symptoms. This is circular reasoning. The symptoms are caused by something deeper; something you are not experiencing.
quote:
When i think of past issues its a different story.... Now. what do i do with that? Yell at my wife for it to get it off my chest years later? Or is just thinking of it enough?
Try to feel it, and try to associate those feelings to other feelings. Most importantly, accept that you are angry at your wife. Accept that you have rage towards her. You may even feel like choking her at times, right? These feelings are normal, but irrational and forbidden in our society, so they are repressed.
The situation with the panic attack is interesting. You were forced to be the good husband, the good dad. But inside you were in a blind rage at your wife for doing this to you. Someone with a different personality might put their foot down and tell their wife there is no way in hell she is taking the kid to Disneyworld. But that's not you. You swallow those feelings and do what you feel is the "right" thing. You do not allow yourself to feel the rage towards your wife. But she hurt you very deeply with those actions, on levels you don't even realize. How dare she run off to Disneyworld when you are home with a struggling business. How dare she take your daughter for a wonderful childhood experience that you cannot share. How can you not be in a blind rage at your wife for those selfish, irresponsible actions?
What are you supposed to do? Feel it. Feel all the emotions that go along with this event, at the time the event occurs. Obviously you can't do that now because this happened in the past. But try now to feel just how you felt back then. If you get down deep, you may find yourself sobbing. This is not uncommon. It's all inside you, bottled up, coming out as physical symptoms. All you can do is try your best to feel them, but most importantly, accept that the physical symptoms are a direct result of not feeling them. |
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Susie
USA
319 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 13:05:42
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| Aorta-it's great that the anger is seeping out. I was just asking you to recognize it. Tms is debilitating. It controls your life with pain,ibs,dizziness,etc. It causes desperation which is where you seem to be. I was too. I had all your symptoms and a few extra. Dave briefly gave you what you need to do to fix it. The next pain,numbness,diarrhea or anything else that hits you try to stop your focus on it and ask yourself what is really bothering you. Just put your thought process into that as the cause of your misery instead of a physical focus. It really is that easy. Tms is a syndrome and it can cause your brain to jump from one symptom to another. I went from ibs to sinus to dizziness to migranes to panic attacks. Backpain was my last symptom but thank goodness for it because that's how I found Sarno. I think acceptance comes from either seeing yourself in the book or such absolute desperation that you are willing to try anything. |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 13:29:53
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This long quote by Goodguy in a previous post expresses my thoughts after reading this thread:
"However, Sarno said very clearly in a recent meeting that his treatment program is based on A) the knowledge of what is going on, and B) the acceptance that even though you can't feel it, you are in a blind rage. He isn't sure why, but this knowledge alone has "cured" many of his patients. Everyone wants to have a "Helen-like" experience, but she was the exception to the rule. By definiton, repressed rage is repressed and you can't access it.
It is the patients that aren't cured from knowledge alone (like myself) that he refers to therapy. He says that these patients are trying to do something very different. They are trying to feel their emotions[UNDERLINE ADDED]. It isn't that he refers his patients to therapy with any kind of recommendation for treatment. I don't think there is such a thing as a TMS therapist. In fact, my therapist, who was recommended by Sarno, doesn't even let me talk about my pain. He says he can't help me with my pain, and I'm letting it get in the way of the therapy process.
So, IMO, Sarno has a recommended treatment program which he clearly defines in his books. For those patients (like most people who frequent this board), who aren't cured by this program, he recommends psychotherapy. At that point, he has to step out of the picture. He doesn't claim to know what has to happen in that therapy in order for patients to get pain relief." END QUOTE
Keep in mind that you don't always need to go real far in emotional self-analysis to "cure" TMS. My wife fears tms therapy because she thinks she is going to have to relive her painful childhood and other bad past experiences. I tried to explain that such reliving is not necessary for the therapy to work. But the talk of Freudian phsychotherapy just scares her away.
Further, it is likely impossible to "break the habit of repression." We do it automatically and the bank continually accepts both deposits and withdrawals. But I don't think it hurts to try minimize the anger that does get repressed.
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 13:52:31
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Suzie and dave,
thanks. Suzie you tell me when im having a physical attack, but its always going on. And i really dont think down deep there is anything going on say when im worse physically.The things i mentioned lead up to my panic attack, but now i dont see any rage down there on a daily basis, but i will try to think about it. i dont think i carry those things i mentioned around anymore, if i do, i dont know they are there and its pretty hard to get rid of something you cant sense a presence of.
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 14:05:58
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Dave,
thanks for venting my rage for me.There was some anger there, but i have to tell you that most of all i felt more like,i was letting them both down, me and my damn illnesses, guilt and failure.
I mentioned this one because it preceded my neuropathy and panic disorder, but i dont feel like im carrying it around with me. When i am very bad physically i dont think its emotion from that time, cant tell at all.
And i hate to say this but of course deep inside, ive had no mri's and i feel like i have seriously messed up my spine, or have some muscle disease. I know all tms people must feel that way, but i dont know. My back doesnt really hurt, but i have burning muscles everywhere, and all my joints are popping and clicking. I really expected something to show in the bloodwork, but it didnt.
Maybe im wishing for tms over a scarier condition.
i will keep trying to find the rage. |
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Susie
USA
319 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 14:09:39
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| Aorta-I had alot of trouble finding my rage. I'm not really sure if I did but it honestly doesn't matter. It's unconscious so you can never really be sure what triggered your problems. I feel greatly affected by certain stress triggers and can pretty much count on the same ones causing my problems. Of course, conditioning plays a great role in tms so thinking that certain stressors will cause my symptoms might indeed make them cause them. You will find that when you get a handle on yours, your symptoms might come back but will be weak enough to render them irrelevant. I finally became aware that my life was being whittled away to a very small existence and that if I didn't get control I would almost be housebound. I kept canceling trips and making excuses for not going to dinner or anywhere. Finally, it was hard to go to the grocery. The fear is the toughest thing to get past. When you get a handle on it, the rest is smooth sailing. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 14:35:50
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quote:
Originally posted by aorta
Dave,
thanks for venting my rage for me.There was some anger there, but i have to tell you that most of all i felt more like,i was letting them both down, me and my damn illnesses, guilt and failure.
This is important! It is the goodist personality. Just take the illnesses out of this equation.
There is a child inside you who resents the fact that you are such a goodist. You say: "I'm letting my wife and kid down, I'm not good enough for them." The child says: "Stop putting so much damn pressure on me to be the best husband and best father! Just leave me alone!" That's the rage.
As far as thinking physical, that's just something you need to learn how to stop. You have to accept that there is nothing wrong with your spine. If Dr. Sarno's book didn't do it for you, you might want to read Dr. Schecter's book. He takes a different, more down-to-earth approach that might reach you better. |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 14:58:21
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aorta said: "And i really dont think down deep there is anything going on say when im worse physically.The things i mentioned lead up to my panic attack, but now i dont see any rage down there on a daily basis, but i will try to think about it. i dont think i carry those things i mentioned around anymore, if i do, i dont know they are there and its pretty hard to get rid of something you cant sense a presence of"
I know that you are being helped by the board based on your posts, and I have benefited immensely as well. We all need to think about what may cause our rage. But you still seem to be missing every major point of TMS theory after the fourth page of this thread has started. Before learning about TMS everyone thinks they have a physical problem, and no one sees their "rage down there on a daily basis" because it is UNCONSCIOUS, UNCONSCIOUS UNCONSCIOUS. And you don't have to "get rid" of the rage to get better, you just have to know about it. |
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Carolyn
184 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 15:11:20
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Did you write in your journal last night? You don't say so so I'm guessing you didn't. Why not? Think about it. You asked how to get started. Just start. It's what we call 'doing the work'. If you don't do it, you can argue about it forever (which is starting to seem like your intent) but you will see no change in yourself so you will have no reason to believe and you will not get better.
You just came up with a traumatic event from your past that you acknowledge you might have been pissed about but didn't express it. STart with that. Write about it and the details of how you felt at the time. I often found that feeling the emotion connected to an event like that and sitting with it for a moment might bring to mind another time you felt that same way and then you are off and journaling. I got Schecter's workbook when I first started (I can't find it right now but I'm sure someone here can tell you where to get it). I found it helpful because I also wasn't sure how to get started and couldn't really see how it would help me. The workbook seems like there is not much substance to it but it was not very expensive and if it's the kick in the butt you need- it is money well spent. It tells you what to journal about everynight for several weeks. It starts with why you think you fit the TMS profile and moves on from there. Do not expect to get the workbook and suddenly see the light. It asks sort of straightforward obvious questions but that's because the answer to curing TMS pain is simple and straightforward. I think that is your problem- you are WAY overthinking this. You are asking for instructions for a complicated process. Well there is none. There is read the book, write in your journal, and attempt to consciously experience your emotions as you experience them (rather than saving them for 'later') or whenever your symptoms are acting up. Why aren't you giving it a try? Maybe you have other issues going on and you in fact 'need' your pain for some other reasons.
Carolyn |
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ssjs
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 15:26:32
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If, in fact, you are not angry about anything, then why are your thoughts all about you being punished? Being locked away. For sure, you are angry, and you are taking it out on yourself.
Take it from me, a person who thought everything was perfect....before i really knew!
Sandy |
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 15:49:45
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For whatever reason im feeling very physically bad now. You guys might say from writing about those incidents. I dont really think so.
My symptoms are scaring the crap out of me, and that i cant be my old self. As you can see i love my daughter, and these afflictions remind me that i cant do the things i want to with her, then depression sets in. My shrink thinks all this is interesting as well but we never get anywhere. Maybe im kidding myself here.It seems the PT i had this week was too much for me. I went from lifting weights every week, to being a cripple.They had me work my lower back and now im burning everywhere and not in a good way. Im too afraid to face mri's, emg, spinal taps and the possible solutions they come up with.Maybe its lyme, maybe its celiac disease, maybe there is cancer somewhere. who knows. you guys dont know for sure either. But it is destroying me, my spirit is so low, and all i can do is think of my daughter and cry.I was a happy man.
I might not come here much, it could be adding memory pain to the other pains i have.Please dont quote anything from here, im at the bottom.
thanks,
sorry. i will try the journal |
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 16:06:19
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sandy,
when i mention being locked away, its only because im so terrified of being hospitalized, experimented on so to speak, laying on a hospital bed watching every second go by, away from my family. God only knows how long it would take to diagnose what is wrong with me, ive tried a lot. Did the whole g.i. tract almost, and i still have nasty problem with my bowel movements.
Im afraid of these things because in over a year i havent improved, and i cant take it anymore. I cant take pain pills because of the g.i. tract.i take a small antidepressant that doesnt help, and xanax as needed. What could do this to someone and not show up? Blood in the stool and they cant see anything with scopes. My muscles burn , my feet burn, and all my joints pop and crackle.
If im doing this to myself, ive done a good job.
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ssjs
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 19:41:54
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I knew exactly what you mean about being locked away. But still, they are thoughts of punishing yourself. Of course I do not believe you are giving yourself the pain, but now it is time to stop! Stop these sad, scared, angry posts and keep a few things in mind
1- You cannot keep doing the same thing, and still expect things to be different.
Stop theses crying painful posts, and get out and take a walk.
Change things!
2- in order to be truely independant you have to be able to depend on someone. Even if you have to pay for it...go out and find a real person. Someone who has the training to help you. Not a message board.
3- only you can control your life. stop trying to give a million reasons, and find a million reasons why you can't.
Am I being harsh? I am sure you will see it that way...
But I was actually paralyized at one time along my sciatic nerve. The pain was horrible. I couldn't look anyone in the face without tears in my eyes. I couldn't move my foot. It didn't move no matter what my brain told it.
Then I found Dr. Sarno, and stopped trying to find reasons why his methods didn't work. I let go and got psycotherapy, and actually acted on the things my therapist told me, and my life changed for the better. way better. No pain now for almost 20 years. Plenty of problems...but no pain...and as for those problems...I work them out, and I am a better person for it.
Come on! You CAN do it. But you've got to stop this crying and punishment first.
You didn't do anything. You do not deserve punishment. You do not deserve to be locked up. You deserve to be healthy!
Sandy
One more thing...I know alot of people are into this journaling thing...but you are already so stuck in the muck of your life...maybe that is not the best thing for you. You are just so STUCK! You need to get away from yourself! DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT WITH YOUR LIFE!!!! |
Edited by - ssjs on 06/21/2005 19:50:41 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:21:38
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quote:
Originally posted by aorta
For whatever reason im feeling very physically bad now.
It is not uncommon when first learning about TMS for your brain to increase the severity of the symptoms.
You completely discount the fact that just maybe the symptoms have increased because you are starting to think about difficult emotions. It is almost as if you are trying not to believe in TMS.
It is clear that you are not at the point where you can accept the TMS concept. It is too bad, because it is pretty clear that this is your problem. I hope that you are successful in adjusting your negative attitude. |
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:26:40
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Sandy,
Sorry if my sad, mad rage posts upset you. Cant blame you there.
But I guess i just had to blow it out here a bit.
As for sitting here, taking walks. I took several today including walking my pain in the ass but faithful brittany into the woods.
I didnt enjoy much of it since im always in pain but i do do it.
And in between crying and thinking of suicide, i made a decent amount of money today. I had a couple of good talks with my daughter
played a game with her and so on.
Sometimes i do nothing but pace and try to sit in a chair, but most of the time i do try.
But i have to do something to fix the problem and i dont know what it is. My experience with psycho doctors has not been good and ive been to a few. So here i am. Im in bad shape, but im still trying. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:31:45
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quote:
Originally posted by aorta
If im doing this to myself, ive done a good job.
You say you read the book, yet this statement is so inconsistent with Dr. Sarno's writings.
This will be my last post ... Your messages are so fundamentally anti-TMS that I'm beginning to think you're just a clever troll. If this is the case then my hat is off to you, because you've managed to contradict just about everything that Dr. Sarno says in his book.
If you are being honest, then the rest is up to you. There's nothing else anybody can say to help. |
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:37:37
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Dave,
It could be that the things i mentioned flared me up, but it could also be that thinking about sad times when im ill just made things worse.
But if this was tms, and those thoughts were connected, where would the improvement fit in. Lets put it this way, if i was feeling physically bad then realized in the back of my mind i was having feelings about that daughter seperation thing, i would make the connection. But as you point out, its subconsious and im not going to be aware of it, which leaves me in nowhereland again. Im waiting for the big click, the connection, that would make me a believer that all my physical ailments are a result of whats going on emotionally. It seems for some there is a click, for others there is not. Maybe it would be a good idea to try to think of it that way, pretend so to speak and see what happens there. How do people resolve feelings like this? Discuss them with themselves and come to a conclusion that satisfies you?
Anyway im getting the feeling people would like to see me out of here so i will become more well.. repressed.
thanks |
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:51:14
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You say you read the book, yet this statement is so inconsistent with Dr. Sarno's writings.
This will be my last post ... Your messages are so fundamentally anti-TMS that I'm beginning to think you're just a clever troll. If this is the case then my hat is off to you, because you've managed to contradict just about everything that Dr. Sarno says in his book.
If you are being honest, then the rest is up to you. There's nothing else anybody can say to help.
Wow Dave i didnt see this one at all. First of all im not a clever troll, or an unclever troll. Everything ive said is true, and my feelings and what is on my mind. I never said what i state or think will be in with Dr. Sarnos. Ive read the books, but i told you i recognized a lot of myself in them, but there were issues i had with some of it, and didnt know where to go to help myself. I wouldnt expect myself to be in line with Dr.Sarno. Again if youd prefer that i dont post, i wont. There are others who have posted some very nice, and good things for me to think about. So if you wish, say the word, and i will be forever repressed here that is.
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Is TMS killing me?
