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robby
16 Posts |
 Posted - 06/16/2005 : 16:14:05
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Edited by - robby on 01/06/2006 20:10:37 |
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Laura
USA
655 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2005 : 18:47:02
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Robby,
I cannot answer your question but just had to respond by saying I'm so sorry for all the loss you have suffered. Wow! That would make anyone feel anxious. That's all, just wanted to tell you that I feel for you and I hope you see improvement.
Laura
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 09:26:14
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Hi:
I can't pretend to have had nearly the trajedy in my life that you describe, but have had similar reactions concerning meds and anxiety while tying to do TMS therapy (psychological thinking). Also, I think what is more is important is not what actually happens to someone, but how they handle it that correlates to stress and anger. Here's what happened to me and what I think.
I had a similar diagnoses of bulging disc after my first really bad acute attack in the summer 1989 (I was only 21). That year was very stressful because I had just graduated college; I had just gotten dumped by my girlfriend and I was supposed to go out and find a job and conquer the world, blah blah blah (you get the picture-- perfectionist). I lived with my mother and stepfather who were successful perfectionists who expected me to pound the pavement and "get that [great] job", etc. Needless to say that pressure combined with everything else that had destroyed my narcissistic self combined to cause my mind to create back pain. One summer day I was working the garden with my mother, I lifted something heavy, my back went "out", I heard popping or ripping sounds and the pain was excrutiating.
I suffered for more than 15 years until stumbling upon Doc Sarno's books. Since that time I became an attorney, suffered bad bosses and had overly stressful employment. My back pain stayed chronic and usually pretty severe throughout it all--sitting, standing and laying down--always painful all the time, constant spasms. I saw so many doctors, chiropractors, PT's, 2 MRIs, massage, injections, nerve rhizotomy (sp), acupuncture. My TMS symptoms also extended to neck pain, knee pain, shoulder pain,TMJ, foot pain, increased asthma-like symptoms, gastroinestinal stuff and gum pain to name the ones I can think of. At one time I thought I was getting fibromyalgia it was so bad I could barely get out of bed without meds. Anyway, since becoming an attorney about 8 years ago, my mental state also consistently deteriorated until I finally made the decision recently to get the heck out of it for sanity's sake. So I could add to my list of problems one more less obvious TMS equivalent--anxiety and depression.
Unlike most, I had already believed that my problem was psychological, so I easily accepted the diagnosis, but the missing piece had eluded me until I read HBP. The missing piece was the specific knowledge of repressed emotions and the realization that there was nothing physically wrong with my back. I have steadily gotten better since reading HBP. I'm not cured yet, but the difference b/w my pre-reading physical state and my post-reading physical state is like night and day. Prior to learning the TMS diagnosis, I had taken anti-depressants of various types and pain killers.
So that's the back drop. Since starting the TMS therapy, in the very beginning, when attempting to think pyschological, there were some times when I thought the anxiety and depression would overwhelm me. I thought I would go crazy and wanted to medicate again, but I forced myself not to. I thought that what was happening was that I was starting to feel the emotions I had been repressing and all I needed to do was let it happen. But then I began to realize that what was really happening was that my brain was using anxiety as a destraction from the repressed emotions during periods when the back pain would subside.
So after all that crap I just wrote, I think the answer is you absolutely have to treat anxiety and depression exactly the way you treat the physical pain. Try to avoid medicating and tell your brain you will not tolerate the anxiety and depression, they are TMS equivalents. |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 13:11:39
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Robby:
sounds like you may have figured out a major reason for your anxiety (rage related to what happened to your father). I'm no psychotherapist and learned early that counseling has never been my forte, but this sounds like the process I go through in figuring out why I have pain. Unfortunately, it seems like this process is lengthy and there is no indication of when we are fully cured. I know a day will come when I am pain free, but from what I have learned, TMS therapy may be something we are in for the rest of our lives. I'm waiting to find the ctrl-alt-delete function to reboot my brain. I want to go back to a time before the memory of pain was imprinted in my mindbody, then only remember the things I want to. Is that too much to ask??????
p.s. it's probably a good thing you didn't sue b/c that could prolong anger, pain, etc. anyway from what you say, it could very well be that what happened on the op table to your dad was an unforeseeable event, not caused by an act or ommision of the doctor(s),in which case, there was no negligence. good luck! |
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Hilary
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2005 : 04:59:09
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Thanks for asking this question, robby. I think it's an excellent one and something I think about a lot. I have the same struggles with anxiety that you do, and I've recently decided to treat them as TMS - after many years of being treated for "an anxiety disorder" to varying degrees of success.
quote:
Originally posted by robby
don't really feel sorry for myself, at least consciously, for the losses in my life. I understand that much worse happens to others.
robby, this is such an interesting comment given that what you've been through. A therpist once told me that those thoughts of "others have it worse than me" are simply blocks to prevent you feeling the real anger, grief and rage underneath. When I learned about TMS this made complete sense. In your case, there's enough ammunition here for several lifetimes of justifiably "feeling sorry for yourself". Yeah, people are dying of AIDS and starving to death and suffering all over the world, but so what? YOUR suffering is ALL that matters here. It's time to start feeling really, really sorry for yourself.
If it's too difficult for you to grieve for yourself as an adult, think of your inner child. Imagine yourself as a 3-year-old trying to cope with these losses. Your 3-year-old doesn't understand the rationalization of "much worse happens to others": it simply wants to rage, scream, cry and shriek at the unfairness of such loss. Children just want what they want. They want to be taken care of, have their needs met, and they resent ANY kind of pressure being put on them.
Keep up the good work! |
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Hilary
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2005 : 05:09:54
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johnnyg, wow, this is exactly what I needed to hear. I've been treated for anxiety disorder and depression for a long time - meds and therapy. Both helped, but did not cure my TMS symptoms and in some ways didn't really resolve my problems with anxiety or depression. Finding out about TMS several months back has started me thinking about all these symptoms in a different way, especially as I started to notice that when my back hurt I didn't feel dizzy, and when I felt dizzy I didn't feel depressed...and so on.
It occurred to me today that my problem with the psychological symptoms is the equivalent of someone who's been diagnosed with "a slipped disc" and is absolutely convinced that their pain is purely physical. I've been diagnosed with depression and anxiety, and i can't seem to get past that. I'm so used to thinking about myself as an anxious, depressed person that it's incredibly hard to turn that around.
However, I am determined to keep ignoring the symptoms and, as you say, telling my brain that I know what it's doing and I won't put up with it. Your story has given me a real boost. Thanks for sharing it.
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyg
So that's the back drop. Since starting the TMS therapy, in the very beginning, when attempting to think pyschological, there were some times when I thought the anxiety and depression would overwhelm me. I thought I would go crazy and wanted to medicate again, but I forced myself not to. I thought that what was happening was that I was starting to feel the emotions I had been repressing and all I needed to do was let it happen. But then I began to realize that what was really happening was that my brain was using anxiety as a destraction from the repressed emotions during periods when the back pain would subside.
So after all that crap I just wrote, I think the answer is you absolutely have to treat anxiety and depression exactly the way you treat the physical pain. Try to avoid medicating and tell your brain you will not tolerate the anxiety and depression, they are TMS equivalents.
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2005 : 09:07:25
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quote:
Originally posted by robby
But she also said that when I feel the anxiety, I should focus on it and feel it. That is a short description of what she recommended, but it did cause me confusion later. If the pain or uncomfortable feeling that arises from anxiety begans, the correct TMS response should be to ignore it and realize that it is only a distraction and then to "think psychologically".
Anxiety is a double-edged sword: it can be a TMS symptom (e.g. panic attack) in which case you should ignore and "float through" it. But it can also be that your worried about something, even if you're not sure what it is. In this case, feeling the anxiety is analagous to "thinking psychologically." Actually, I never really liked that term. TMS is more about "feeling psychologically" than "thinking."
The therapist gives good advice. If we strive to feel the emotions of the moment, especially the negative ones, then they will not be repressed, and we are foiling the brain's strategy which is designed to prevent us from feeling those emotions. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 07:03:42
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Traumatic events affect us on levels that we do not even realize, and the rage goes very deep. For example it is likely that on some level you are angry at your brother for deserting you. It is not rational, but the child inside you is not rational.
Even if you've been in therapy before, it could be an enlightening experience now that you are in a position to connect those feelings to physical symptoms. It could be very helpful in treating your TMS. |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 09:58:02
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Hilary:
that was a good analogy equating the anxiety with being diagnosed with a physical disorder. That really is what psychiatrists are doing, they are diagnosing anxiety/depression as an independent disorder caused by a chemical imbalance (physical cause). By medicating the disorder this way, they only treat the symptom (chemical deficiency), not the true cause, which is the emotions. Re-read MBP pp 30-31.
This is why you would still have pain either during the period of treatment or after you go off of anti-depressants. Hopefully this knowledge will prevent anxiety attacks for you the way it did for me. The idea of "thinking psychologically" for purposes of anxiety and depression doesn't seem to make sense the way it does for physical pain. That's why I just started to completely ignore it, such as the "float through it" description for panic attacks.
Robby:
I am glad you asked this question as well, because it seems that folks sometimes ignore or maybe forgot about pp 30-31 of MBP. It is counterintuitive, but I think Sarno hit the nail on the head in saying that anxiety and depression are TMS equivalents. The trick is to just distinguish it form normal healthy anxiety, which should be acted on appropriately. Just like we are all entitled to some pain, we are also entitled to some anxiety. It may be that from now on you will spontaneously remember many past events that have contributed to your pain. Pay attention to each one and make the connection.
Also, feeling the pain or emotion is probably ok as a remedy, but for me it only seems to lessen symptoms a little. I get the best results when I forcefully and consciously shift my thinking away from the pain to some other psychological issue. For me this is mostly a test of willpower. Since the unconscious is irrational, you have to force it into rationality, which for me means thinking your way out of it, not feeeling your way out of it. |
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Hilary
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 07:19:38
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johnnyg, thanks again for your input. I find anxiety and depression very difficult to cope with in TMS terms, but I do believe that I'm on the right track.
When you say ignore the depression, etc, how exactly do you do that? Sorry if that sounds like a dumb question but when I get down I find it very, very difficult to ignore.
I pay depression in particular a lot of attention and have been treated medically for it in the past. I've started to rethink my treatment and my "illness" in recent weeks - if you put it into TMS terms you can start to think about it very differently.
So, I am realizing that I focus on my depression a LOT and that I spend a lot of time feeling like a slave to it and frightened that it will get worse. Which, again, is exactly how I used to feel about my back and also the dizziness.
The truth is that I still cannot accept that this is something I can cure myself. Wow, didn't really realize that until I just said it. I've got past thinking that my back is physical (and the back pain went away) and past thinking that the dizziness is physical (and the dizziness went away) but I can't stop thinking that the depression is chemical/physical and out of my control, and it won't go away. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 07:28:10
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Hilary, now you are on to TMS' tricks.
The brain will keep trying until it finds a symptom that succeeds at making you think it is a physical problem, or one that you find difficult to ignore, or one that you obsess over ... anything to keep your mind occupied.
The root emotional causes need to be addressed. We talk about unconscious rage and thinking psychological ... but sometimes it helps just to simplify things. There are one or more aspects of your life that are making you unhappy. Either you know what it is and avoid thinking about it, know what it is and feel like there's nothing you can do about it, or don't realize what it is. |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 08:29:27
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Hilary--questions surrounding anxiety and depression as tms eqivalents seem to me to be the toughest to answer. I honestly don't know "how" to ignore it, except to tell it to F off. I think I got lucky in the sense that when I realized the brain was using high anxiety to divert attention, I got less and less anxious and depressed. Also, I had to take some drastic steps to change my life, such as leaving my profession and deciding to do something that is better for me. I know that such drastic measures aren't generally required and won't cure my back, but it is definitely helping my overall health. I'm sure that doesn't help or make you feel too much better.
Also, I hate to suggest this on a tms board, but if you're like me, you may benefit from a non-tms approach. Sometimes we just have to change the way we think. Someone on this board suggested the book "Three Minute Therapy" (www.threeminutetherapy.com)and I thought it was helpful. Sometimes anxiety and depression are caused or made worse by thought patterns, which have become aberrations and which, unbeknownst to us, have switched into auto pilot mode causing irrational anxiety or depression. |
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Fredarm57
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 09:59:59
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Sometimes it's helpful to remember that all emotions are transitory and that thoughts are just thoughts. Dr. Ronald Siegel has a useful chapter in his book "Back Sense" on this concept. When you start having anxious or depressed thoughts, just tell yourself "there goes my brain again" and try not to get too attached to the thoughts. So often our thoughts do not reflect the reality of the actual situation. We assume that we will always feel the way we feel at this moment, or that things will always be this bad, when the reality is that life is always changing, events are always changing and our thoughts are always changing.
Worry is future-oriented. People prone to anxiety (myself included) project their current situation into the future and assume that nothing will change. Or we terrorize ourselves with a parade of "what-if's". This feeds into the classic TMS situation where you get some pain and begin to worry that its going to last a long time, what if it doesn't go away, I have to "x" next week, etc. Techniques that help you focus on the present (such as meditation) can help you reduce this future-oriented anxiety. |
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Hilary
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 16:27:32
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I also really appreciate the input I'm getting here. Dave, johnnyg, I'm learning a lot. Between this and aorta's thread I'm getting some new insights. As for there being things in my life I'm not happy about, I know that's true and I can identify them: I'm single, I've just finished a course and don't have a job and I'm scared to death about the future, about money, about running out of time to have kids, about my parents dying, about being alone and isolated, about being poor... but I think I have to keep digging for the anger behind these feelings, right?
So, it's not the fact that I have to do an application form that makes me angry - it's the fact that I put enormous pressure on myself to do the form absolutely perfectly (which takes me forever) because I feel that I'm going to be judged very harshly on it, that I don't really stand much of a chance of getting the job because I actually have very low self-esteem. Okay, that much I get. But how do I link that to anger? Why is the child enraged in this situation? |
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molomaf
119 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 17:15:31
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Robby,
Anxiety is a tough one. I started getting panic attacks when I was 24 and can link it back to a traumatic incident 6 months before. I absolutely thought I was going crazy. I could not "control" how I was feeling. I did feel like I was going to explode. What really helped me and I was a basket case, was to use Claire Weekes books and float through the fear. I had to do this over and over and over until my brain was convinced that nothing bad was going to happen. Nothing bad ever did happen. I never went crazy(as far as I know!), I didn't scream and embarass myself in public. It's all a feeling and not the reality. An anxiety attack won't last very long if you don't add to it. And even if you do add fear to the anxiety, nothing terrible will happen.
If I can be of any help please feel free to email me.
Michele |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:28:30
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quote:
Originally posted by robby
...Finding the COURAGE to confront this fear has been the most difficult matter for me...
...Do any of you with anxiety/depression get the feeling that you could explode? Maybe a bad description,...
Hi robby,
My fear was I believed I was "broken" and obsesssed about wether I would ever be normal again. I was convinced before I learned about TMS that I would be broken for life. This also made me angry and bitter. Now that I am Sarno-aware about my mind-body, the fear and anger is gone, and so is the back and leg pain.
In Frank Herbert's books, there is a recurring passage that basically says let the fear pass over you and through you, and when the fear has passed only you will remain. It sounds a bit corny but it really works.
Yes, I do get the feeling sometimes that I'm just going to explode. I've had some difficultly the last 6 months with depression, since now my "physical" pain is under control, TMS is still trying to get me using other paths. At this point the depression is a bit preferred over the intense LBP, but I still must work on the root anger I must still be harboring.
Take care, -Stryder |
Edited by - Stryder on 06/21/2005 20:33:28 |
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ladyrat
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2005 : 15:44:27
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Hi, Robby:
Anxiety can be thought of as another "manifestation" of TMS, albeit a psychological one. I suffered from major anxiety, agoraphobia and a host of other phobias during the last few years (post-9/11 stuff - I live in New York City - plus other personal issues). When I overcame those psychological "symptoms", my sciatica/TMS appeared. Hang in there...it's tricky stuff. Just keep focused on your issues and accept the symptoms, physical and psychological, for what they are. They suck, but they can't hurt you. |
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anxiety
