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electraglideman
USA
162 Posts |
 Posted - 07/18/2004 : 20:35:53
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FARMERED,
Very, very, well said. Most people who have come here have already tried the physical. I even had surgery and I really wished I could have found this forum before surgery (disk removal). I would think that most people who suffer neck, back, and other pains are going to visit Sarno or reading his books to learn about TMS to releave the pain as a last resort. I mean really, who would believe being overweight is good for you. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2004 : 09:56:06
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FarmerEd, I don't think those people lied. But we are talking about a very tiny sub-set of all the people who suffer from chronic back, butt and leg pain. And this sub-set paid for and went through Sarno's program, self-selecting for at least enough belief in it -- and reason to think that their pain was psychogenic -- to do that. Without a control group to compare them to, reported results from them would not be taken seriously by scientists -- and has not been, much to Dr. Sarno's displeasure.
I haven't said anything about "RSI". And I don't know what pains secretaries -- or assembly line or mill workers, for that matter -- did or did not get. I don't think Dr. Sarno knows that, either.
Neither have I claimed that "we" -- meaning everyone -- forgot how to walk correctly. The main problem is that most people hardly walk at all. But just speaking for myself, I was not walking "correctly". I was walking with my whole pelvic area held tightly. Others who post here have reported that they found themselves doing the same thing. Learning how to relax the pelvic,ab & erector muscles as I stood, sat and walked made a great difference for me. Perhaps that does not apply to you; I have not suggested that it does.
If what I said in my original post on this thread has any resonance for you, great. If not, that's fine, too. What you do or don't do is no business of mine. Unlike some who post here, I don't think there is any one "right" way to approach this stuff. But the somewhat more eclectic approach that I used, worked very well for me. You have to find your own way.
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2004 : 10:37:16
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I don't necessarily agree with everything that Gary has said, but there is alot of to be learned from the approach he takes. First off, regarding Sarno's survery's, I highly doubt that those patients were able to completely rid themselves of all of their TMS equivalents. Its just not realistic to be able to re-condition the mind of the way it responds to all (tms) pain in such a short period of time.
Sarno is a very smart man. He knows the personalities of the patients he has treated, and he probably knows that most people need him to take the black and white approach that he does or else they would obsess about the .004% chance that their pain could be something else.
In the end, I've drawn 2 conclusions from reading Sarno and from my own experience and they are 1. sometimes its impossible to know exactly what the cause of the pain is. 2. regardless of #1, my body is strong and my body will heal if I give it the opportunity to, and I don't need to know the exact cause in order to be healthy |
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Texasrunner
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2004 : 11:10:43
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Austingary- just curious- Are you from Austin, TX? I noticed you posted an article I wrote for the Austin American Statesman about stretching and running.
-BH |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2004 : 14:22:17
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Austingary- just curious- Are you from Austin, TX?
Yup. First came here to the University in 1963. Have lived here and elsewhere since then but more here than anywhere else. |
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Texasrunner
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2004 : 15:07:34
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| We ought to get togehter and discuss the pros and cons of interwining TMS theory with running and other sports sometime! |
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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 10:51:24
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"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and on this topic you have supplied none."
"Between the 2 extraordinary claims I choose to believe Dr. Sarno's."
(Good stuff Ed- NM )
Always Hope For Recovery
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 11:38:40
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Your claim that we somewhere along the way forgot how to walk correctly, and need to be reinstructed in the basics of how to do it, is equally extraordinary.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and on this topic you have supplied none.
True to form, KennyV had to jump right on top of this one, as though he had thought of it.
But, in fact, I made no claims. My posts are simply my personal opinions. That is all they have ever been. Anyone may take what I have to say for what it is worth to him or her, if anything. Get that? What part of "opinion" do you folks not understand? I claim no expertise whatsoever on this subject, nor have I ever.
My opinion is that Dr. Sarno is wrong to suggest, as, IMO, he certainly does in his books, that our evolutionary environment has prepared us for chairs, cars, sofas, buffet restaurants, an indolent lifestyle and all the other accutrements of modern American life.
No, I think our evolutionary environment prepared us for a nasty, brutish and short life on the savannah. In order to live in our world today without paying for it with a lot of pain, we have to use many work-arounds. Careful attention must be paid to diet, exercise, and many other aspects of how we relate to the world, because we are physically unprepared for it. We can't just drift through life, thinking that this is what we were made for. It isn't.
That's my opinion. It doesn't require any proof, extraordinary or otherwise. If you don't like it, then poor you, for wasting your time reading it. |
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2004 : 07:59:07
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Hello Gary,
You wrote: FarmerEd, I don't think those people lied. But we are talking about a very tiny sub-set of all the people who suffer from chronic back, butt and leg pain. And this sub-set paid for and went through Sarno's program, self-selecting for at least enough belief in it -- and reason to think that their pain was psychogenic -- to do that. Without a control group to compare them to, reported results from them would not be taken seriously by scientists -- and has not been, much to Dr. Sarno's displeasure.
I'm glad to see you changed your mind about these people giving false replies. I agree that it is a tiny subset of all that have chronic back, butt and leg pain, but it is noteworthy to show that for some reason the vast majority of this tiny subset that finally sought relief with Dr.Sarno's methods had chronic pain that was psychogenic in nature. Now most of the people who post on this board have also sought relief from many different doctors and methods and are finally seeking relief in Sarno's methods, as did the group in the survey. Those on this board are also a tiny subset and have self-selected for at least some belief in Sarno's theories. Given the similarities between these 2 tiny subsets, wouldn't it be safer to assume the majority of this tiny subsets' pain is psychogenic in nature as well, and procede in that direction first?
That the reported results would not have been taken seriously by scientists dosen't bother me. I believe it is compelling enough to be taken seriously by laymen like us. The evidence given by Dr.Eqoscue seems equally flimsy to the scientific community but seems enough for you, why do you require me to produce a higher level of proof? Does Dr.Eqoscue have a similar survey of patients who were in debilitating chronic pain who are now essentially pain free leading normal lives and activities, and if so what is his success rate?
You wrote: But, in fact, I made no claims. My posts are simply my personal opinions. That is all they have ever been.
I agree, but you have often presented claims from Dr. Eqoscue and these claims are what I am questioning. In the future I will try to make this clear. Dr. Eqoscue's claims I find as equally extraordinary as Dr. Sarno's, yet again you don't seem to require the same extraordinary proof to accept his that you want me to produce for Sarno's. As I stated before, I find Dr. Sarno's more credible and choose to follow his program.
You wrote: Neither have I claimed that "we" -- meaning everyone -- forgot how to walk correctly.
I agree that I misrepresented Dr. Eqoscue's claims as you have presented them. You are right to point out and correct me for doing so. I've noticed you are quick to correct people on what you have said when they twist your words to go beyond what you meant, and I applaud you for this. In view of that, I would point out that you also at times put words in Sarno's mouth he has never said, misrepresenting what he has said and taking it to extremes, going far beyond what he ever intended to make your point. If you do not wish your views to be misrepresented I would think you would not wish to do so to others' views.
In his book "Healing Back Pain" on pages 81-82 Dr. Sarno makes it clear that Exercising for the sake of good health is important and is, "strongly encouraged.". Exercises done to "fix" a percieved back problem are discouraged.
BTW, JohnD, these surveys were done as followups on patients that had been treated from 1 to 3 years previous to the survey, not right after treatment. I also believe the survey was dealing mostly with the original back problem that they were first treated for, not other TMS equivilents that might have sprung up, but that is an assumption on my part.
I enjoyed it Gary. I'll let you get in the last word on this. If I get a chance I'm going to start a new topic later, on something I'd like to hear your opinion on.
Ed
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Edited by - FarmerEd on 07/25/2004 08:07:06 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2004 : 11:23:22
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Gentlemen, very interesting debate! Well said, in the interest of healing and non-inflamatory.
Let me throw in my two bits. I did forget how to walk and run. My lifestyle habits became working at a desk and playing tennis. In conjunction with this, a very emotionaly volatile relationship breakup that endured for years with no light at the end of the tunnel. Prior to this I ran marathons at a respectable pace.
I am able to get by on the tennis court, limping and dragging my right leg which freezes up under the pressure of chasing down a shot out of my reach. I had to retrain my leg to walk. I accomplished this by walking 45 minutes a day. It would take about 20 minutes for the hip joint to loosen up and work normally. I started doing this several years ago on vacation. The next step was to re-conditon my thinking to do this on the tennis court. Recently I am becoming sucessful at this. I can reach most balls by walking to them or running in a fashion that does not lock up my hip joint.
Yesterday, I had to pickup my car at the dealership after servicing. I jogged the 10 blocks. This was a breakthrough. My pace was slower probably than if I had walked, but the movement was running rather than a walking motion. In my mind I feel the muscles in my right hip have locked up in a TMS fashion. I am going to start jogging to retrain my leg how to run again, little by little. I am hopeful I can accomplish this.
On the subject of science, I have little faith in it anymore. It's only as good as the integrity of those who practice it. I have lost faith in the once great institutions of learning. They have become politicized dinosaurs. The public is disillusioned and confused by all the contradictory "studies", mis-reported by the media--witness the plethora of snake-oil supplements, overflowing the shelves at Walgeens. Even doctors are throwing up their hands and going along withn their patients leads, recommending supplements that have no definitive "scientific" studies behind them. For example glcosamine-chrondroitin. There is no definitive science behind this supplement. I keep hearing that the "major" study is being done. I took it on several occassions for extended periods. I found that one brand I used had little or no active ingredient in it according to a doctor reccommending another brand. So I don't know if the stuff has any beneficial effect or just placebo. I have heard that it may help by 25%. For the time being, I am taking nothing until I see evidence of effectiveness from a scientific community I have little faith or trust in. Anything short of a fracture, I'll treat it with TMS thinking. I feel, as far as our health goes, we are all on our own and must take personal responsibility, mucking through the mire of this "new age". Sarno helps a lot, he's my primary physcian although I've never met him and probably won't. |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 04:29:15
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tt,
Here's a very interesting study on glucosamine therapy compared to ibuprofen for joint pain. The best glucosamine is in liquid form and you need to give it time. Doctors in HK even in Government hospitals are prescribing it. Another supplement worth trying is lyprinol. They both take time to show effect but they do work.
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/ip/petergriffiths/ebdm/papers/glucosamine.pdf
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
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