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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2004 : 08:12:00
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If the cause and the cure for everyone's pain could be known, I think we would find that all the causes and all the cures would be different. No one-stop solution could benefit everyone.
I think we should keep this in mind as we read these posts. Anyone who is looking for The One Solution is very likely to be disappointed, just because there is no one else with exactly the same problem, hence exactly the same solution.
Some people are dealing with pain that is 100% psychogenic. But some may be barking up the wrong tree when they come here; their pain has very little to do with unconscious rage or anything else going on in their minds. They have bad habits or practices they need to change. Perhaps a few have real "structural" problems. We pretty much all agree, I think, with Dr. Sarno that these probably rarely cause pain, but they must in some percentage of the people.
What helped me to go from terrible pain to 95% recovery in under 3 years was a particular combination of doing the anti-TMS work, applying some good advice from a Pilates instructor I met & some exercises I found in books. I changed the way I held myself as I sat, stood, walked and ran. I stopped stretching, took off time from running, instituted a slow walking regimen, and gave myself the time to heal. But I doubt that doing exactly what I did would be right for anyone else.
I think we are better off if we look at this message board, all the books on Amazon and in the bookstore, and all the advice we get from doctors, family, friends and strangers, like a bowl of fruit from which we are free to choose none, a little or a lot and to mix in any way we see fit. The idea is to create our own unique solution for our own unique problem. To do that we have to trust our instincts, our Creative Process, to tell us from "within" what are likely to be the right choices among all the suggestions and then to try things. Unless we try things, test possible solutions, we can never really know if any particular method will fit into our Unique Solution or not. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 09:04:08
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quote:
Originally posted by austingary
Some people are dealing with pain that is 100% psychogenic. But some may be barking up the wrong tree when they come here; their pain has very little to do with unconscious rage or anything else going on in their minds. They have bad habits or practices they need to change.
Maybe.
But I think that many people who find this board probably do so because they are at the same point: chronic pain that fails to respond to conventional treatment.
Whether or not the pain is 100% psychogenic is pretty much irrelevant when treating TMS. The most important thing is to stop obsessing about the pain; to banish the fear that there is something structurally wrong; to realize that the chronic pain serves a purpose, and to begin to work towards thwarting that purpose.
I think everyone can benefit from these concepts, whether or not their pain is all psychogenic or not. I firmly believe that early on in the process -- when first being introduced to the TMS concept and acquiring the knowledge necessary to combat it -- it is detrimental to think physical, period.
I do not think it is realistic for the majority of people to say to themselves: "OK, I understand the TMS concept and agree it applies to me, and I will work on that. However, I also believe that my pain is due to physical things so I must address that as well." There may well be truth to this statement, and down the road, once the TMS concepts have fully sunken in to the unconscious, maybe it is OK to start thinking this way.
But early on, when it is hard enough already to accept TMS at a conscious level, let alone allow it to sink in to the unconscious, if you think physical in any way it impedes recovery.
TMS is a bad habit you have to break. You have to work at it, you have to focus. If you don't focus, you leave the door open for your unconscious to continue its games. It's as if your unconscious mind is saying ... "Ah, he thinks the pain might be due to the way he is holding his pelvis. Excellent. I will now induce pain in the pelvic region because it will be very convincing." TMS is a clever process. It will find a way to grab your attention, if you allow it. You have to slam the door.
That's my opinion, anyway, FWIW. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 11:16:12
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Dave: I do not think it is realistic for the majority of people to say to themselves: "OK, I understand the TMS concept and agree it applies to me, and I will work on that. However, I also believe that my pain is due to physical things so I must address that as well."
You may be right about the "majority of people"; I don't know. One clear, simple idea at a time. All or nothing.
But if the person has a physical (and I don't mean structural, which I think is less likely) reason for a significant portion of his pain, then his attempt to cure it using the anti-TMS methods are probably going to fail. And the anti-TMS methods, which would have worked against some of his pain, are rejected as worthless.
Of course, if Sarno is correct in his apparent belief -- extremist, in my opinion -- that peoples' body habits and the way they interact with the elements of modern civilization do not cause any of their pain, then all body pain is TMS and there are not any other causes. Personally, I think that is highly unlikely. |
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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 11:17:38
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“ Everyone’s different”
quote:
If the cause and the cure for everyone's pain could be known, I think we would find that all the causes and all the cures would be different. No one-stop solution could benefit everyone.
I think we are better off if we look at this message board, all the books on Amazon and in the bookstore, and all the advice we get from doctors, family, friends and strangers, like a bowl of fruit from which we are free to choose none, a little or a lot and to mix in any way we see fit. The idea is to create our own unique solution for our own unique problem.
I agree everyone is different and all the manifestations that we are effected with TMS are also different, but two underlying factors are the same, we all have an emotional makeup and this primarily controls TMS symptoms.
Gary we have all made many contributions to this board if we see them or not, Also I have not at any time said that you have not made any, in fact it was in the beginning that I spoke to you as a veteran TMSer, but as time went on and I have learned from ALL the contributors here, and have learned that TMS is a syndrome and it is a process that takes place in our lives. The way we live, the way we think and react to situations and life’s circumstances. It effects the way we feel our habits and yes the way we hold our bodies tight and don’t allow our mussels to relax do to tension anger and conditioning. But primarily the ill effects of TMS are due to repressed emotions and they must come out to get resolved. TMS, from what we have learned is not a medical condition that can be treated with medication and traditional remedies that the main steam medical community has been doing the past 40-50 years. It is a condition that have some common factors with personalities and develops over time, because of what we are exposed to and how we react to our life’s circumstances as well as relationships. TMS can be conquered by education of its process, understanding the result of what repressed emotions have on a physical condition.
There is a commonality in this syndrome in all people (humans) who have feelings and emotions, people who can exhibit grief, have a sense of guilt and anxiety, fear, people who have anger and rage in them, but this is only a result of some other underlying factor. But you believe it is not proper to discuss it outwardly. Fear and anger are emotions, they are reactions to these underlying factors, and you cannot ignore them. All forms of therapy and emotional healing use people to help people, Grieving a loss or going through a traumatic experience can be healed and restored with the help of one who has gone through this themselves, so if you say emotions are not to be shared or it is something you keep to your self, I say your wrong for the benefit of those who need healing. If you say an emotion is NOT to be expressed OUTWARDLY, I say your wrong for the benefit of the listener.
Gary you did good you earned your self a star, You have allot of head knowledge and understand many things, many people who come here can see that, but that doesn’t mean you are not hindering people who are looking for the “The underlying cause of their pain” (repressed emotions).
If this pattern of thinking is going to be the dominant voice of the board, well I guess so,
I am glad Dave is well rounded and HELPS many people to rationalize and make an APLICATION to their TMS pain.
I applaud you in your effort; many new comers will benefit from your contribution.
I guess like anywhere you go, sometimes people visit, learn what they need to learn apply what they have learned and move on once you make application and discover the truth. If not they would only be stuck where they are at for the duration of there lives. Maybe that is why you have evolved in your TMS knowledge and continue to remain, along with your style of THINKING.
Some of your latest comments
quote:
Let me tell you something: The way I see it, rational people are my kin. I will go all out to help them. But the enemies of rational thought usually put themselves into the position of being my enemy.
I do this primarily for entertainment. Writing argumentation like this is fun for me. And it provides exercise for my mind.
Question originally posed
Kenny: You did not answer how you worked on your emotional side in dealing with TMS strategies, and what have you discovered.
[
Your answer to the proposed question
That's just part of the premise behind all these discussions here. What else needs to be said about it?
For one thing, that's not what this topic was about, although it has drifted well off the subject of my original post. For another, the "emotional side" is what most of the discussion on this board has been about over the past 3 years. I have nothing new or unique to add.
Question originally posed
quote:
*Kenny: I have noticed not much in all of his TMS comments and approaches, even mention about the emotional component. I am interested to hear his view about how one is to maintenance this part of the syndrome and address the emotional needs of recovery. Maybe he can elaborate on this part, completing his TMS syndrome recovery theory.
Your answer to the proposed question
As for my "innerman thoughts and feelings", I'll continue to keep most of those to myself, which is where they belong.
Gary, because of your working knowledge of TMS I posed the question of how you worked on your emotional side in dealing with TMS strategies, and what you have discovered. I do not know why but as the result you chose to avoid the original question and replace it with your own eloquent writing and create new posts to simply ignore the emotional work of TMS.
RESULT =AVOIDENCE WITH DISTACTION
Isn’t this is what the work of TMS is all about?
And then you came up with
“Emotional Purging Not Part of anti-TMS Rx”
"Good and evil lie in a rational and social being's deeds, not in his feelings
But, as we know, TMS is all about our emotions, rage in particular, said to be held deeply, constantly threatening to erupt into consciousness and destroy our lives, so threatening that we put up a wall of pain to keep it out.
Here on this board, as in the rest of our lives, we seem to divide up into thinkers and feelers
John Lee, in his book on anger, recommends many methods of finding and dealing with anger but they are all exercises to do in private, not among others
All of the above statements do not in any way offer someone help who is looking in the area of learning how to explore, share and make peace with the emotions that they might be suppressing. It does not in any way contribute nor address to those who really need to get at the bottom of their TMS pain.
It is a colorful way to make a factual summery of emotions but there is no “getting real”, “ getting in touch”
“Making peace with self and others”, “letting go of the core source of the repressed emotions”, “dealing with fear, rage anxiety”
These statements below are also a conflict
The only emotions that we can express in front of others without doing harm are the bonding ones -- love, caring, expression of shared grief etc. and we find that even those must be disciplined. There is also a tendency for those who value emotion to believe that a feeling about something is as good as an actual deed. That an apology erases a bad deed. That feeling the right emotion about doing something is as good as or better than actually doing it.
But the Feeling vs. Thinking divide is, as it has always been, a fact of life and it will continue to be -- in the world, in the nation, and here on this board. Those who value emotion above all
You cannot compare animals with humans because we have emotions and feelings and do not respond by instinct like animals do.
Yes we where giving the ability to think and make choices, but we cant think out our emotions, they where giving to us for a purpose. Come on, nature itself bares the mark that we are special, different that any other creature, you cant compare us to animals, nor try to think or rationalize our feelings that are to be SHARED and EXSPRESED with other HUMAN BEINGSThe one thing that makes us truly different, as humans, from the other animals, are not emotion, but rational thought.
Yes we need to be thinkers, but we can not just be smart, and able to rationalize with all of life’s pressures that effect us emotionally with the result of TMS symptoms.
RESULT= AVOIDENCE WITH DISTACTION
Gary every one is different but we all have emotions, and getting in touch with them dealing with them is what the core of all of the TMS work is about isn’t it?
Yes everyone is different but we all have Emotions
Always Hope For Recovery
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Edited by - kenny V on 07/15/2004 11:23:55 |
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Jim D.
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 13:44:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
"Ah, he thinks the pain might be due to the way he is holding his pelvis. Excellent. I will now induce pain in the pelvic region because it will be very convincing." TMS is a clever process.
I think that is a good, succinct explanation of what can happen as TMS preys on our tendency to believe in the physical. Recently I awoke with the white of one of my eyes bright red. I panicked immediately and assumed the worst. The doctor assured me that it was a very common occurrence--a burst blood vessel that would go away on its own and that would not involve pain. But then my TMS proclivities took over. I felt I had something in my eye, the area around the eye was sore to the touch, and I began to have throbbing headaches (something I almost never have). I went to a play and had trouble seeing because of blurred vision. Thoughts at night turned to the worst: losing my sight, brain cancer, on and on. Finally I went to an eye doctor, who gave me a careful examination and found absolutely nothing in my eye and no reason for the pain. I smiled to myself (but said nothing to her) because I recognized this was a classic TMS situation. The pain finally went away. My theory about what happened (and theory is all it can ever be with TMS) is that my unconscious saw an opportunity for a new locale for pain: a frightening red eye is an excellent opportunity for starting a new obsession for someone who is already concerned about aging and all that goes with that process. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 15:46:00
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| Dave and Jim -- what you have said really strikes home with me....If I allow myself to think that my problem with pain, numbness or some other unpleasant sensation is physical in origin, then my brain seems to immediately take advantage of that, and it creates a new site for chronic, distracting pain and obsession about that pain. Now I can, after a short period of time, talk myself out of tinnitus, facial pain, headaches, dizziness, spaciness, sciatica, buttocks pain, tingling of the hands, knee pain and stiffness, and tightness of the left thigh muscles -- all which, pre-Sarno, I thought had a physical origin.....I do have to constantly work at it, but it's well worth the mental effort. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 19:43:37
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Kenny: ...but that doesn’t mean you are not hindering people who are looking for the “The underlying cause of their pain” (repressed emotions).
The person whose pain is 100% based on repressed emotions (or a defense against them, if Sarno's theory is accurate) might, I agree, be "hindered" by dwelling on information that suggested the possibility of a physical cause for some or all of his pain. That person would probably be better off to simply immerse himself in doing the psychological anti-TMS work and stay away from any input that did not directly bolster that work.
But I don't think that applies to very many people. I could be wrong but that is my opinion. I think most of us have physical (as distinct from structural, mind you) reasons for body pain, such as poor body habits, both conscious and unconscious, lack of flexibility, lack of exercise, poor diet, overweight, and so on and on. And then TMS sets in to make the pain worse, as it tends to do.
Those people may benefit greatly from a more well-rounded approach that includes exercise, attention to body habits, increasing flexibility, looking to their general health, and so on and on. I speak to and for those people. I am one of them. I know I am one of them because I applied a variety of several means to dealing with my body pain, including the anti-TMS psychological work but not limited to that, and what I did worked for me and still does.
This board, from its inception, has been open to discussion about TMS and related topics. It has never, ever, been a "support" board for TMS in the sense of hewing to a "party line" so that people would not read anything that might get in the way of their anti-TMS work. Yes, there are support boards and groups like that, but this has never, ever been one of them.
If Dave wants to turn it into that, now that it is his board, he can do so. All he has to do say the word and start deleting the posts he chooses to censor. But you Kenny, just another poster, are not in a position to dictate such a radical change for this board. If you think you can talk Dave into that, I suggest you email him about it.
Finally, let me say once again that if someone does not want to hear what I or anyone else here has to say, don't read the posts! I mean, really, Kenny, what part of "Don't read my posts if you don't like what I have to say," do you not understand? |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 02:41:59
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Kenny V,
You are mistaken in your assertion that the repressed emotion must come out in order to resolve TMS. On p.112-113 of MBP Sarno writes, about his early experiences with his own migraines. He was able to stop his migraines when the premonitory "lights" began signaling that a migraine was coming. He would sit down and think about what anger he was repressing. He states he had no idea what he was angry about but to his astonishment the headache would not come on. He was able to stop it by just shifting his thinking from the physcial to the emotional. To quote, "I didn't know what I was unconsciously angry about, but I was willing to accept that something psychological was responsible for my headache. That alone prevented the migraine permanently". |
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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 06:59:10
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Tom, I am not asserting that repressed emotions MUST come out in order to get ANY relief, I am in agreement with you when you say you can still do the work of TMS without ever knowing what is being repressed.
Yes, just having acceptance is very important in TMS work; it eliminates worry and frees up the FIGHT.
However, a TMSer who is familiar with Sarno’s work and how powerful the syndrome can be, who has been doing anti TMS work for some time without any significant gain, or recurring symptoms continue to manifest, has not isolated the “REASON” for his pain or symptoms.
quote:
Kenny V,
You are mistaken in your assertion that the repressed emotion must come out in order to resolve TMS
Tom you used the word “ RESOLVE” can you qualify this thought?
I am only looking to verify this point and expand on how if TMS continues or if the pain that was once gone and then reoccurs, there is more emotional work to do, and perhaps the underlying REASON for the repressed emotions was not exposed or isolated.
“Shifting his thinking from the physical to the emotional.”
This is hard to do when you don’t know what you are shifting to.
And as the Q’s to Gary with all his experience and knowledge, he has never expanded on these types of questions, nor offered solutions.
Always Hope For Recovery
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 07:28:43
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quote:
However, a TMSer who is familiar with Sarno’s work and how powerful the syndrome can be, who has been doing anti TMS work for some time without any significant gain, or recurring symptoms continue to manifest, has not isolated the “REASON” for his pain or symptoms.
There is no one "reason" for TMS symptoms. TMS results due to an overflow of the pool of rage. Many things add to that pool. Recovery is not about finding the reason, but exploring all possible things in your life that might add to that pool of rage.
Equally important (perhaps more important) is to recondition ourselves to take an entirely different outlook on pain when it strikes. We must banish the fear and obsession about the symptoms. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 07:51:14
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Kenny:And as the Q’s to Gary with all his experience and knowledge, he has never expanded on these types of questions, nor offered solutions.
Are you just mistaken or are you continually lying about this? I posted the very first post on this board and have continued posting for 3 years. In that time, I have posted literally hundreds of messages. Many of those have gone into great detail as to my opinions -- for that is all that I have, really -- about every aspect of TMS, including the deepest psychological aspects.
But I do not choose to answer your specific interrogations, Kenny,this late in the game, just because you demand it, each and every time you demand it. I am going to post about what interests me now.
IMO, it is incredibly narcissistic on your part to keep making such demands and then posting this garbage about me when I don't respond to you in the way you think I should.
Want a reason for your own pain? I suggest you find yourself a shrink who knows something about "narcissistic personality disorder" and throw yourself on his/her mercy. And get off your high horse on this board. Only the most naive here could possibly buy what you are selling. At least, I hope that's the case. |
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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 10:51:29
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Good stuff Dave thanks for your input and reinforcing good TMS thinking. 
Gary,
I wanted to thank you for your ( Posted - 07/15/2004 : 19:43:37)
Post in answering back to the topic in a allied way, I felt as if we had made a connection for the first time and it WAS possible to have a different prospective of views while maintaining a friendly commonality.
But your last comment was not needed and was written before I could comment and thank you for it.
*But I don't think that applies to very many people. I could be wrong but that is my opinion. I think most of us have physical (as distinct from structural, mind you) reasons for body pain, such as poor body habits, both conscious and unconscious, lack of flexibility, lack of exercise, poor diet, overweight, and so on and on. And then TMS sets in to make the pain worse, as it tends to do.
I agree but this can be in the opposite order, someone has TMS pain and because of lack of motivation exercise and poor nutrition keeps them there.
Those people may benefit greatly from a more well-rounded approach that includes exercise, attention to body habits, increasing flexibility, looking to their general health, and so on and on. I speak to and for those people. I am one of them. I know I am one of them because I applied a variety of several means to dealing with my body pain, including the anti-TMS psychological work but not limited to that, and what I did worked for me and still does.
Again we are all different in our healing process I agree with what you have done, but with myself I needed to STOP all physical exercises, stretching, and therapies, for the duration of TMS work to validate the TMS diagnosis and do the TMS emotional work.
And like Dave said to recondition my self not to continue the bad body habits .I had such as fear of sitting, relaxing, and holding my body tight all the time.
But WHY was I tight all the time? Yes some was conditioning and programming, thinking it was bad to sit, and punishing myself feeling guilty to relax, because of past programming, and a type A personality.
And like Dave said. Exploring, is a very important element.
“There is no one "reason" for TMS symptoms. TMS results due to an overflow of the pool of rage. Many things add to that pool. Recovery is not about finding the reason, but exploring all possible things in your life that might add to that pool of rage.”
” exploring all possible things in your life that might add to that pool of rage.”
Exploring, this is what I am doing by asking these types of Q,s.
I am in much agreement with your TMS interpretation and have applied much of it to myself, however we differ in its application. Yes everyone is different and going to apply anti TMS work in different ways. However the concept is the same. I just wanted to explore more on the “key elements to the TMS work.”
I have tried to ask you an honest question when I originally started posting on this board about a possible trigger for the origination of my TMS pain. Being a tragic experience. (Murder of a close father figure). Do you remember?
Probably not, You came back with I hope you have pain in your but and back and would not care if I ever healed or recovered from TMS.
Do you want to try to answer it at this time or should I take this as your current position as well.
Dave I would appreciate if you can answer the question and if you can answer one on my current TMS condition.
Your opinion is much appreciated. 
20 years back pain (start isolated to tragic experience)
20 years of chiropractic, and TMS prone conditioning.
5 years of intense back #10 - 24/7 pain including sciatic in both legs. (Associated to 2-3 close family members medical care, transition in major move, loss of job ect…)
When did TMS first set in 20 years ago or 5 years ago?
And current condition 9 moths of TMS work 99% of pain reduction in 6 moths. 4 moths’ pain free, With minor discomforts from time to time associated with emotional circumstances.
A recurrence took place one week ago on a vacation day with back pain, after a long day of sun exposure and possible heat exhaustion on a fishing trip.
What do you make of it?
Always Hope For Recovery
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Wilf
Canada
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 11:39:46
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I agree with Gary that not all pain is psychogenic. When I first started applying Sarno’s approach to healing my back and neck problems, I began to experience severe swelling in my hands and feet and I developed pain in areas that had not been painful previously, i.e. the front of the hips and the inside of the legs. These leg pains were so severe that I had unbelievable difficulty sitting and standing. I had a constant chill and I woke up every morning with extreme stiffness throughout my whole body. I also experienced a loss of appetite and weight.
I thought this was TMS manifesting itself in other ways.
I phoned Dr. Schechter and he informed me that severe swelling is usually NOT a manifestation of TMS. He advised me to get checked out. I was referred to an Internal Medicine specialist who diagnosed my condition as Polymyalgia Rheumatica (PMR), an inflammatory rheumatic condition (poly = many; myalgia = aching muscles). It is treated with Prednisone which produces dramatic resolution of symptoms. I took that drug for almost 2 years, and I am now virtually free of PMR.
I discovered that my condition had been coming on slowly for about 3 or 4 months before I started applying Sarno. That is why I was so confused when symptoms started getting worse when I began to “think psychologically”. My first post to this Board was an inquiry to ascertain if anyone had experienced PMR and the pain associated with it. The only reply I got was from someone who warned me not to go off prednisone abruptly. I already knew that.
It is interesting to note that most of the pain that I knew was TMS, has resolved itself. You are correct Gary, everyone is different.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2004 : 01:58:52
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Kenny,
I did not use the word "RESOLVE", you did! I was just quoting you in your post of 7/15-11:17:38. To quote you, "But primarily the ill effects of TMS are due to repressed emotions and they must come out to get resolved". To reinterate, Sarno says you do NOT have to discover any deep psychological problem to stop the pain. You just need to understand how the TMS process works in distracting the mind from the emotions by creating psychogenic phyical pain. You need to shift your attention from the pyhsical to the emotional. Sarno says that just making the mindshift can stop the TMS pain as it did for his migraines.
Kenny, you mention that you were having difficulty shifting from the physical to the emotional, to quote you, "This is hard to do when you don't know what you are shifting to". I suggest you read MBP, p. 26, the list of 43 life events that can cause "disease" through the mechanism of internal rage. I have personally identified at least 10 of these events that have contributed to my TMS induced pain.
Kenny, using your posts as Rorschach for your TMS, it seems to me that your pain may be caused by your obsession to be friend's with everyone on the planet. This is an impossible task, and I would think the impossibility of it along with the constant rejections would fuel an unlimited pool of rage. Your obsession with Gary may also be fueling your TMS. It's like back in high school asking someone out for a date and not getting the hint after the third rejection. I recall getting the hint after an x-high school flame of mine told me she had to stay home on Friday night to wash her sweaters. I didn't bother calling her again. After following and admitting to be somewhat entertained by the exchange of barbs, Kenny, I think it's time to give it up. Obviously, Gary is not interested in dialoging with you and your questions to him appear to be of a baiting nature. It should be obvious by now that Gary is not interested in the bait. Good luck on your road to recovery and I hope this helps. |
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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2004 : 08:53:37
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Tom
Thanks for you’re supporting words in my recovery.
It took 2-3 days to replenish my body fluids, I believe I was dehydrated last week when I took a double header fishing trip. I made a mistake and stretched through out the day when I became tight and my back became discomforted. It seems when my muscles became fatigued and loss body fluid that TMS decided to takes it place and settle in on the weakest point, the small of my back. I have been out of pain for some time now and it was disappointing to have pain come back in such a short time. After being in pain for 20 years then to be released for over 9 months or so, only to have a relapse brought my discouraging thoughts fast.
Today I need to be grateful that the relapse can be a reminder to celebrate and live each day like I have been given a second chance.
I am going to celebrate and relax and take another fishing trip this Monday.
Have you ever experienced a relapse in such a way?
Thanks for taking the time to clarify why you used the word resolved. It was paraphrasing when I used it.
*“But primarily the ill effects of TMS are due to repressed emotions and they must come out to get resolved”
I still hold firm to the “why we get chronic pain and continue to have it, is primarily due to this component.
As for
*Kenny, you mention that you were having difficulty shifting from the physical to the emotional, to quote you, "This is hard to do when you don't know what you are shifting to".
I do not have trouble with this area. I certainly know the things, which trouble me, and I have had worries about care taking of family members. And the anger I have been working on has been quite a release from the prison I was in. I am finally at peace with the world around me again, and being out of pain keeps me less grumpy.
I was only stating this as an example of how it is EASIER to ISSOLATE a REPRESSED EMOTION when you have EXPOSED it and DEALT with it in a PRODUCTIVE fashion.
Therefore working on repressed emotions maintenance as they come out, get RESOLVED.
Take Care TT
Always Hope For Recovery
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2004 : 09:15:04
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Gary wrote: The person whose pain is 100% based on repressed emotions (or a defense against them, if Sarno's theory is accurate) might, I agree, be "hindered" by dwelling on information that suggested the possibility of a physical cause for some or all of his pain. That person would probably be better off to simply immerse himself in doing the psychological anti-TMS work and stay away from any input that did not directly bolster that work.
But I don't think that applies to very many people
I agree that a person whose pain is 100% psychogenic would be hindered by dwelling on a physical cause for some or all of their pain. I believe this would be especially true early on in their recovery when their belief in the truth of Dr. Sarno's theories is not that strong and such thinking brings in doubts that can undermine the recovery.
I disagree though that the percentage of TMS sufferers whose pain is 100% psychogenic is small and that they are in the minority.
I reread the part of Sarno's book "Mindbody Prescription" that dealt with his follow-up surveys of his patients (Introduction pages 24-26). In his first follow up survey 76% of his patients were," leading normal lives and were essentially free of pain". In his second survey those leading normal lives free of pain had risen to 88%. This was before he bagan screening patients to make sure they had some degree of acceptance to the belief that pain can be psycologically induced. There is nothing to indicate that these people did anything except follow Sarno's program that assumed their pain was 100% psychogenic. From this I think it is obvious that the percent of TMS sufferers whose pain is 100% psychogenic is vastly in the majority.
Though it is a guess on Sarno's part, he believes the increased success rate between the first and second survey was due to an increased proficiency in his teaching about TMS which stimulated a stronger confidence (belief?) in the diagnosis, and that starting in 1985 he discontinued prescribing physical therapy because some patients focused on the physical treatments as a basis for relief that hindered their recovery.
I would be interested to see a current follow-up survey that showed his success rate since screening his patients for a minimum belief in pain being able to be produced psychogenicly. I believe it would be even higher.
Perhaps there are some TMS sufferers who have some true structural or postural part to their pain, but they are in the minority based on these surveys. As in your case Gary, I can see the wisdom in someone who has resolved the largest portion of their pain by working on the psychological component of their pain over a good amount of time looking for another possible reason for the remaining pain. I just don't think it is wise, based on these survey figures, to assume a physical reason for any part of the pain in the beginning. The odds favor the pain being psychogenic. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2004 : 10:32:12
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FarmerEd, I would have to go back and re-read those sections of Sarno's MBP about his patient surveys in order to respond specifically to this point. In general, I take all of this kind of thing from Sarno with a large grain of salt because:
A. All anecdotal responses to surveys of this type are suspect. People who have gone though Sarno's classes, paid the $1000, told all their friends about it, etc. have a very large stake in responding positively to his surveys. And...
B. When Dr. Sarno screens possible patients prior to treatment for belief in the TMS concept, he pretty much kills as credence being given to reports of their success, what they say about the treatment, etc. Which is not to say he should not do this; I understand why he does. But the bottom line is that Dr. Sarno's surveys are not anywhere near a scientific study of actual results from his approach.
Just as Dr. Sarno comes to all this with a huge bias based on the fact that he has devoted his life to this idea, I come to it with a bias toward people's problems being at least, in part, physcial (as distinct, I point out again, from structural) because I have been very much into nutrition and fitness over the past 25 years.
For me, to say that a large percentage of people with body pain have no physical reason whatsoever for any part of their pain -- not diet, not exercise or lack of it, not bodily habits, nothing -- but, in fact, they would be perfectly fine if only they thought differently, well, I think that is an extraordinary claim. Particularly in light of the known facts about the abysmal situation among the American population with regard to diet and exercise. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. So, I don't believe that claim, not now, at least.
Dr. Sarno does pretty much preach that. He says that we have evolved so that our bodies are perfectly well-suited for modern life, in which we use our bodies in ways un-dreamed of just a century ago, much less in the evolutionary environment. Another extraordinary claim that would require much better proof that Dr. Sarno offers, which is none, actually. I think he is wrong on this point.
I am not really "looking for a reason for the remaining pain". For all practical purposes, I am not in pain. Pretty much all I had left a few months ago was some tightness and minor pain in my hamstrings and doing the Egoscue morning exercises wiped that out in about 3 weeks. |
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2004 : 14:08:44
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Hello Gary,
You wrote; A. All anecdotal responses to surveys of this type are suspect. People who have gone though Sarno's classes, paid the $1000, told all their friends about it, etc. have a very large stake in responding positively to his surveys.
I would disagree with this. I surely don't have as much experience as Dr.Sarno in this area but most folks I have given his book to tend to be skeptical at the beginning, as I also was. That the method works is a source of amazement at the beginning. It is usually not until after they have recovered that they tell family and friends about it. Because of their doubts, and not wanting to appear odd, they rarely go around touting Dr.Sarno and his theories before they have had success with them. Dr. Sarno said in his book that patients usually come to him as a last result after spending thousands of dollars on other failed methods. They don't seem to have a problem expressing their dissatification with the other methods and if his did not work I doubt they would mind saying so.
Most come to Dr.Sarno with some doubts and if the methods did not work they would be more likely to chaulk it up as one more crackpot method tried and failed.
Dr Sarno's level to count treatment as a success is also much higher than most surveys. In most surveys if you feel any better they claim it as a success. In Dr.Sarno's the patient had to be free of pain and leading a normal life to be counted as a success(to see a more detailed description of Sarno's level to be considered "cured" read MBP pg 169-170). I just don't see the motivation for a person who has in their mind once again wasted time and money and is still in chronic pain to say they are pain free and leading a normal life.
For these reasons and others I tend to accept the survey as accurate and believe most TMS suffers' pain is 100% psychogenic.
Enjoyed debating with you Gary. I'm pretty busy during the week perhaps I can write again next Sunday.
Ed
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2004 : 14:19:12
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Hello Gary,
Forgot to mention. The two surveys I brought up that had the 76% and 88% success rate were conducted on patients Dr.Sarno had treated before he began to screen patients. In your reply you seemed to indicate you thought these surveys were done on patients that had been screened.
Ed |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2004 : 17:59:05
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The two surveys I brought up that had the 76% and 88% success rate were conducted on patients Dr.Sarno had treated before he began to screen patients.
You pay $1000, get examined by a well-known doctor and diagnosed with psychogenic pain, go through a series of lectures, & do weeks or months of work on your own! Do you doubt that most people would at least report improvement in their condition? I would think that almost everyone would, just as the survey showed.
I have no doubt that some people have pain syndromes that are 100% psychogenic. Or that all or almost all pain is at least part psychogenic and might respond to anti-pain psychological work.
But we live in the USA in 2004 where most people are overweight, out of shape, do not exercise, work in situations that put constant strain on their bodies, and spend most of their time with modern labor-saving devices which their bodies could not have evolved to accommodate. Most people today also feel an incredible amount of mental stress.
Given this, I am asked to believe that, in almost everyone, their pain is solely related to the mental stress and none of it to the way they treat their physical bodies. I am asked to believe that somehow, in the evolutionary environment where our bodies were formed via natural selection, we evolved to accommodate cars and chairs and long rides in airplanes and working all day bent forward diddling a computer keyboard with our arms stretched out in front of us -- and no other exercise.
That's an extraordinary claim, in my book, and demands extraordinary proof, and I don't see any.
I am a believer in TMS, don't get me wrong, and I have used the anti-TMS psychological work for good results in my own life. But I don't believe Dr. Sarno's theory of how it works or his theory of how nothing else matters.
Guess there's something else in me besides my hamstrings that doesn't like to be overstretched -- my credulity. |
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2004 : 19:40:11
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Hello Gary,
You wrote:You pay $1000, get examined by a well-known doctor and diagnosed with psychogenic pain, go through a series of lectures, & do weeks or months of work on your own! Do you doubt that most people would at least report improvement in their condition? I would think that almost everyone would, just as the survey showed.
In the surveys, respondents were placed in one of 3 categories. Category 1 were those that reported full recovery, out of pain and leading normal lives. This category constitued 76% of the first survey and 88% of the second. The second category were those who showed some improvement but still had some pain and limited activity. This group made up 8% and 10% of the surveys. Category 3 were those that had no improvement and were considered treatment failures. This group made up 16% and 2% of the surveys.
The majority of the respondents reported full recovery, even though they were given the choice to report only some improvement. Your belief, that TMS sufferers whose pain is 100% psychogenic are in the minority, hinges on the majority of these respondents lying. I don't believe that many folks would lie about being fully recovered if they were only somewhat recovered and had the choice to report this.
If the majority of the respondents did not lie, then your position is wrong, and the best course of action for a new TMS sufferer to follow would be to assume all his chronic pain is psychogenic and start from there.
You wrote: That's an extraordinary claim, in my book, and demands extraordinary proof, and I don't see any.
That it is an extraordinary claim is your opinion. I doubt that Dr. Sarno believes that bad eating habits, no exercise, and smoking are unimportant and do not cause health problems which can be painful, as you have portrayed his position without checking to be sure, (have you written him about this?).
Dr Sarno also gave an example in one of his books that seems to contridict your theory. Decades ago secretaries worked long hours over mechanical typewriters with their backs bent, arms extended, diddling their fingers, without suffering from RSI. They did however get a lot of ulcers in that era. How could typewriting physically cause an ulcer and why did they not get RSI if it is due, at least in part, to body posture when they did the same type work often for longer hours?
Your claim that we somewhere along the way forgot how to walk correctly, and need to be reinstructed in the basics of how to do it, is equally extraordinary.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and on this topic you have supplied none.
Between the 2 extraordinary claims I choose to believe Dr. Sarno's.
Ed |
Edited by - FarmerEd on 07/18/2004 19:46:35 |
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