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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
 Posted - 11/30/2013 : 08:36:07
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
Alix, pay close attention to Dr. Sarno's Daily Reminder #6:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmDB1U3z1Yk
So you should edit your 1000s of posts to say that your link only apples to back pain.
It says so right in the reminders, no need for me to edit--and besides I'm not a PERFECTIONIST. I don't get paid for this and whatever I write here is only for my personal benefit. Anyone who entrusts their mindbody health to a message board is an IDIOT.
I've noticed in these pissing matches you'll have to pull your posses into this, why can't you speak for yourself, why do you have to always mention some comrade? I remember the same thing happening when SteveO and Nicole had the temerity to announce their TMS books here at a TMS Forum, a mini-possee formed to pull the carpet out from under them, while everyone sat on the sidelines. Now SteveO and Nicole are well respected TMS authorities and pretty much don't come here anymore. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2013 : 08:45:42
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quote:
Originally posted by plum
Unlike Sarno, Candace Pert embraced physical treatments where necessary, within her healing framework. She encouraged people to seek full information about their condition and then make a decision.
Beautifully written post as usual Plum, but the above statement is totally untrue. No where does Dr. Sarno say not to treat real structural conditions with allopathic remedies. That's the first thing he would tell them to do. When structural sources were exhausted then it was TMS psychological treatment. NO ONE SAW DR. SARNO FIRST! It was when they exhausted all other conventional, complementary and quackery that they discovered him or his books. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2013 : 08:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
The pain is protective, I have no doubt of that.
So I did not follow the rigid TMS orthodoxy. But I firmly believe that Sarno would be ok with this.
It is just some of his radical followers who would object.
Dr. Sarno made the point that it is a PORTECTOR, a defense mechanism.
What is the "rigid TMS orthodoxy"? Expand on that statement please.
Please name his "radical followers" so we can stay well away from their wrongheaded thinking and not be infected.
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2013 : 09:58:43
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
quote:
Originally posted by plum
Unlike Sarno, Candace Pert embraced physical treatments where necessary, within her healing framework. She encouraged people to seek full information about their condition and then make a decision.
Beautifully written post as usual Plum, but the above statement is totally untrue. No where does Dr. Sarno say not to treat real structural conditions with allopathic remedies. That's the first thing he would tell them to do. When structural sources were exhausted then it was TMS psychological treatment. NO ONE SAW DR. SARNO FIRST! It was when they exhausted all other conventional, complementary and quackery that they discovered him or his books.
Thank you Tom. I greatly appreciate clarification on this point. I have absolutely no interest in squabbling, my main concern is that people who are scared, in pain and therefore vulnerable make good decisions. Gambling on your health is never a good move so it's a fine thing to thrash such confusions out.
I think this portion of Steve's response points to the problem. Please bear in mind, I know he does not speak for Sarno and is only expressing his opinion. I don't want you to feel you must defend it or otherwise. That is his responsibility.
quote:
Originally posted by SteveO
Cancer appears to be TMS; The Mindbody Syndrome. I remember a while back when Ace said it was obvious that most cancer "experiencers" [my word] had the Type-T personalty--but far beyond that. I took that to mean they were worriers and perfectionists extraordinaire--TMSers on steroids--super-repressors.
Cancer means "expressing." It is, of course, possible to destroy your body by beating it to death, as with smoking for 50 years, or drinking your liver into oblivion. Or there can be extreme dietary deficiencies that anger the body into expression.
But it's clear that many, if not most, expressions of cancer come from a mindbody process. So it is disheartening to hear people say that cancer is not TMS (The Mindbody Syndrome), because it takes all sense of control away from healing, and places it into an uncontrollable realm. This is of course the essence of TMS, in that, the brain creates the symptom to make the person feel as though the body has simply failed, to hide the reason for the symptom, which is the expression of anger, fear, loneliness--unmet needs.
I often wonder what people mean by "cancer is not TMS." I believe it is TMS, from the experts I've spoken to in private, and from the great books I read on the topic. Dr. Sarno feels that cancer is more often TMS, and so do many oncologists. I spoke to Carl Simonton while writing, before he died (he choked to death while eating dinner), and it was clear that he knew cancer was often a mindbody effect. Carl was a cancer-pioneer who wrote a great book called Getting Well Again.
So it all comes down to belief doesn't it?
A lot of people believe in Steve and trust him implicitly. I know people who have healed from cancer and they did so by adopting an integrative approach. To mess around with the TMS acronym is confusion on speed. It's befuddling in the extreme.
I agree that it is a bit silly to blindly follow advice on a message board but this isn't exactly the case here, with Steve they are following an authority figure. I welcome discussion on these matters. It is important. |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2013 : 10:55:10
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
quote:
Originally posted by plum
Unlike Sarno, Candace Pert embraced physical treatments where necessary, within her healing framework. She encouraged people to seek full information about their condition and then make a decision.
Beautifully written post as usual Plum, but the above statement is totally untrue. No where does Dr. Sarno say not to treat real structural conditions with allopathic remedies. That's the first thing he would tell them to do. When structural sources were exhausted then it was TMS psychological treatment. NO ONE SAW DR. SARNO FIRST! It was when they exhausted all other conventional, complementary and quackery that they discovered him or his books.
Tennis tom, it is where I have a problem. I agree that Sarno says to get checked first and then to go down the TMS path. But the problem I am trying to convey is that at this point people get stuck on the TMS orthodoxy route no matter what and often for way too long. We know that TMS can mutate and take more aggressive forms. |
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andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2013 : 11:25:08
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Hi Plum,
In my opinion SteveO, Dr Sarno and Ace are expressing the same opinion regarding this somewhat difficult and outrageous idea to accept: “That subconsciously we attract cancer to ourselves”. The theme is that we are not responsible just like we are not responsible for our TMS symptoms.
I was also somewhat humbled to read Dr. Alexander’s story how he believes this to be so. So strong is his belief that he has chosen to deny conventional cancer surgery, his reasoning and logical plan are laid out on his website. Plum, is Dr Alexander being cruel or kind to himself?
I do not have cancer but my sister in law in the UK has just had serious surgery. I am horrified to apply this cruel concept to her condition, as she is one of the happiest people I know and a non believer in the phycholgical.
Susan, it bothers me that you are not posting. We are all thinking of you in your time of trouble.
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years, is almost gone.
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
Edited by - andy64tms on 11/30/2013 11:28:42 |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2013 : 11:29:14
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alix, I share your concern. Defering any diagnosis compromises healing. We have to have a start point, firm ground from which to *go*.
In addition I'd like to spice this discusson with something raised by chickenbone. TMS is very seductive (in a bewitching sense) because it grants haven to our fears. God alone knows how beautiful I find this and yet...and yet. I have loved charismatic men and who is more charming than a bold man who heals and resolves your deepest needs, the bittersweet appeal of the wounded healer. A million hearts break. Please let us not mine these fragile flowers more than we must. |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2013 : 11:53:32
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quote:
Originally posted by andy64tms
Hi Plum,
In my opinion SteveO, Dr Sarno and Ace are expressing the same opinion regarding this somewhat difficult and outrageous idea to accept: “That subconsciously we attract cancer to ourselves”. The theme is that we are not responsible just like we are not responsible for our TMS symptoms.
I was also somewhat humbled to read Dr. Alexander’s story how he believes this to be so. So strong is his belief that he has chosen to deny conventional cancer surgery, his reasoning and logical plan are laid out on his website. Plum, is Dr Alexander being cruel or kind to himself?
I do not have cancer but my sister in law in the UK has just had serious surgery. I am horrified to apply this cruel concept to her condition, as she is one of the happiest people I know and a non believer in the phycholgical.
Susan, it bothers me that you are not posting. We are all thinking of you in your time of trouble.
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years, is almost gone.
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception
Hello Andy, how lovely to hear your voice again. Thank you muchly for adding your thoughts. One thing I am sure of is that life is a beautiful mystery and death even more so.
I love your thoughts on attraction. I do share them but I am very respectful of the delicate point where this passes into blame of any kind. Like many people I gave tender consideration to the passing of Jerry Hicks (of Abraham renown). Perhaps the kindest words I have seen are these from Joe Vitale.
http://blog.mrfire.com/the-gift-of-jerry-hicks/
We will all pass and it behooves us to gently embrace Death as a Lover. I am open to the esoterics of this but I am unsure if this is the right venue.
I heard from James not so long ago and he is in fine spirit. I admire his honesty and courage immensely. Cruel or kind? I say kind. He has been ever so kind to me and many others here, I cannot imagine for one moment that a man like him would deny his own spirit the selfsame generosity.
I've read your posts about Maureen and was touched by the love you have for her and for the love people here extended. In a nutshell the whole caboodle rests on this. Sometimes the body needs a literal shove, sometimes the mind needs a metaphorical kick up the arse. Whatever the weather, I wouldn't play craps with Life. It's a gift.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2013 : 18:04:07
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by alix
But the problem I am trying to convey is that at this point people get stuck on the TMS orthodoxy route no matter what and often for way too long.
That's a broad generalization that I don't see at this site, if anything many here are hypochodriacs running to doctors at the least little sign. When my urine turned red I didn't say "Oh, it's only TMS I'll think it away." I immediately went to the ER and it was found to be a kidney stone and I got morphine and percodan for it. When my neck swelled up after some dental work, I went to my dentist who sent me immediately to a maxiofacial specialist who immediately sent me to surgery for a potentially deadly condition called a Ludwig's angina. When I passed out on the bathroom floor I called for an ambulance for the first time in my life and they discovered I had lost half my blood due to an ulcer caused by gobbling handfulls of Alleves. I didn't lie on the floor saying it's TMS. I mean you have to use some commonsense about this. Cancer can be tricky because by the time you find it may have progressed to a serious stage, whether you believe in TMS or have never heard of it. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2013 : 18:09:33
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This is what Louise Hay says about cancer:
"Deep hurt. Longstanding resentment. Deep secret or grief eating away at the self. Carrying hatreds. 'What's the use?'" |
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RageSootheRatio
Canada
430 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2013 : 19:24:36
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Susan, I hope you are OK with this thread. Please let us know if not. I continue to send you best wishes for your healing and recovery.
I have hesitated to post back onto this thread, but this is some of what Dr Sarno himself said about TMS and cancer in his 2007 book, The Divided Mind:
Over the last 32 exciting and fruitful years, my colleagues and I have learned much. I've published three books to describe our work, our discoveries, and our successes. Those dealt largely with what I called the tension myositis syndrome (TMS), a painful psychosomatic disorder afflicting millions. The Divided Mind will deal with the full range of psychosomatic disorders, a far broader and more important subject. Psychosomatic disorders fall into two categories:
1. Those disorders that are directly induced by unconscious emotions, such as the pain problems (TMS) and common gastrointestinal conditions including reflux, ulcers, irritable bowel syndrome, skin disorders, allergies, and many others.
2. Those disease in which unconscious emotions may play a role in causation, but are not the only factor. They include autoimmune disorders like rheumatoid arthritis, certain cardiovascular conditions and cancer.
Clearly, Dr Sarno made the distinction between "TMS" and diseases such as cancer. So to use the words "TMS" and "mindbody syndrome" interchangeably is, I believe, part of what is causing confusion and dissent.
~RSR |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2013 : 08:25:27
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quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
I think the idea of TMS is extremely seductive for a lot of hypochondriacs. It allows them to believe that all of their pain and ills are mind related and don't need to be attended to.
...My husband, who treated cancer for most of his life, does not think that cancer strikes particular types of personalities.
...I am not so sure that Dr. Sarno really thought that cancer was a form of TMS, because I remember him saying that TMS was basically harmless.
A true hypochondriac would NOT even bother reading a Sarno book, they WANT to believe they have a physical problem for primary and secondary gains. They wouldn't be at a book store in the Self Help section looking for complementary cures, they would be firmly implanted in the doctor's waiting room reading a Vogue or National Enquierer. If they bothered even looking at the cover of the book, they would immediately put it back, "No way it's in my head, my problems are real physical." If a kindly person gave them a Sarno book, their first and last reaction on opening and reading a page would be like SteveO's, they would "Say rubbish" and throw it across the room. (SteveO did pick it up again, a true hypochondriac would burn it).
Of course your husband doesn't think personality has any baring on getting cancer, if he did he would have been a very lonely man at the hospital. Dr. Sarno was, a pariah amongst his peers, thought of as a whack for thinking for himself, seeing with his own eyes, daring to say what his colleagues would fear to say, a true pioneer.
You are confusing what Dr. Sarno said about muscle, tendon, and ligament pain being harmless, in his earlier works about backs, etc. He does not say all MINDBODY dis-ease is harmless. KNOWLEDGE progresses, read the Good Doctor's two later books to more fully understand the nature of PSYCHOSOMATIC dis-ease. Even when an idea is out in the latest book, if the knowledge is worth anything, it is out of date because intelligent people are making use of it to advance knowledge even further.
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2013 : 10:49:30
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Tom, it is clearly untrue what you have to say about hypochondriacs. That was the way old school medicine used to think about them. We now know that hypochondriacs don't really want to be sick, this is just how their unconscious anxiety/fear gets expressed - in physical rather than psychological ways. And they certainly don't do it for gain. It is also true that there are orders of magnitude more hypochondriacs who are deeply into self-help than those who are sitting in doctor's waiting rooms. TMS's are hypochondriacs, but not all hypochondriacs are into TMS. Normal people do not think and talk about symptoms all the time and what causes them. They are well aware that their bodies sometimes have little quirks, but they do not dwell on them, turning them into full blown symptoms. I for one am well aware of the differences between my mental processes and those of normal others.
I can also say that in my own experience, most, probably 80% of people I know who died from or have cancer are extremely happy, well-adjusted people who have everything to live for. My husband believes strongly in TMS, but does not think TMS is a always a major factor in cancer.
I also think we are all very different when it tomes to our individual physical and emotional makeup. For instance, some people have an extremely high tolerance for sugar - I could eat tuns of sugar and my blood sugar won't even move, but someone else eats a little and their blood sugar goes through the roof. The same thing applies mentally, some have a huge tolerance for emotional upset, it even seems to make them stronger, while others are prone to become ill with just a little.
Tom, I am well aware of your anger management problems and your tendency to behave like a psycho whenever you get a bee in your bonnet because someone's opinion has threatened your mental equilibrium. So if you choose to start on me like you have on others, I will not even read your insults. These are your issues not mine. |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2013 : 11:11:29
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
That's a broad generalization that I don't see at this site, if anything many here are hypochodriacs running to doctors at the least little sign. When my urine turned red I didn't say "Oh, it's only TMS I'll think it away." I immediately went to the ER and it was found to be a kidney stone and I got morphine <snip>
tom, you are trivializing the discussion. There is a significant gap between overdosing foolishly on NSAIDs and what I was trying to convey.
But tom, your posts are becoming quite abusive so I will leave the conversation. |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2013 : 12:04:52
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Susan, I offer my unreserved apologies if this thread is distressing you. In truth I see that it must be and I plead extenuating circumstances. Maybe if these assumptions had been aired long ago many would be spared the circumstances in which they find themselves. In recognition of RSR's mindfulness if you want us to stop or move to a fresh thread, please say so either here or by email and it will be honoured.
In respect of this I beg everyone pay heed to these words of John Sarno:
"Patients often ask me, “Do you want me to start being nasty?” and I say, “No.” I simply want them to understand that the drive to be perfect angers the unconscious".
This comes via Day 24 of The Structured Educational Program on the tms wiki.
Here is the link: http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Educational_Program_Day_24
And the link to the article in Pain Medicine News referenced (you will need to sign up but they do not harass you);
http://m.painmedicinenews.com/Article.aspx?d=Web+Exclusives&d_id=244&i=November+2010&i_id=678&a_id=16258
Let us not descend into being nasty. It is naïve in the extreme to pretend that people are not swayed by what they read here, particularly when it is repeatedly stated that one must accept an all or nothing belief in tms to heal.
alix, I do understand but am saddened that you leave. I value your spirit and words. You healed and you broke from the orthodoxy. Perhaps that is statement enough.
chickenbone, I am happy to trust your husband's judgement. His experience has weight and your voice has punch. It tells me you think for yourself. Also I note you healed once you broke the faith.
Today's orthodoxy is tomorrow's refusal. |
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Busted
73 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2013 : 15:10:34
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| Just jumping in here to say I'm so sorry about your prognosis Susan. Last year I was diagnosed with breast cancer, thankfully it was caught early and I am now cancer-free. But then 3 months ago I tested positive for the BRCA gene. I had a hysterectomy 6 weeks ago as prevention for both ovarian & breast cancer. So in a way I can relate. Although I have a genetic disposition, in re-reading Mindbody Prescription, I have started to wonder if all of my stress & anxiety caused my cancer to come to the surface. I remember the first time I read that book and saw the section on cancer, I worried/wondered if symptom imperative would take me there. And it did. I've chased TMS around my body for years now - back pain, carpal tunnel, plantar faciitis. Maybe I chased it around so much cancer was the only thing left. Scary. I have been in psychotherapy for the past 1.5 years, but it has done nothing to help. Then again, I don't think my therapist was very good. I just left her and will try to find someone else who can hopefully help decrease my reservoir of rage. |
Edited by - Busted on 12/01/2013 15:11:24 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2013 : 16:21:28
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quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
Tom, I am well aware of your anger management problems and your tendency to behave like a psycho whenever you get a bee in your bonnet because someone's opinion has threatened your mental equilibrium. So if you choose to start on me like you have on others, I will not even read your insults. These are your issues not mine.
You don't know anything about me, this is just a message board. I forbid you from ever reading my posts again, if I catch you reading my posts I will tell Dave on you.
tt/lsmft |
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njoy
Canada
188 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2013 : 17:51:24
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Wow, some thread. I've just read the whole thing and haven't got a clue what the argument is about. So what if we think a bit differently? If we didn't why would we bother talking to each other?
I do know that when someone else's behavior upsets me it's because I am getting close to learning something about myself. My upset is not with the other person much as I'd like to think it is.
In short, it seems to me that arguing about tms doctrine is a tms equivalent.
Currently on about IFS (Internal Family Systems). More info here: http://personal-growth-programs.com/learn-about-ifs/introduction-to-internal-family-systems-therapy/
----------
Proud member of tmshelp.com since 2005.
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2013 : 22:39:40
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Hi folks, I am sorry for not posting for a few days. I have been so preoccupied with chemo and the stress of this disease that I forgot about the board. I am not distressed to read the comments as a few people mentioned. I was hoping that Steve would answer my question about why children get cancer if he thinks it's stress related. Children who did not seem stressed.
I will never know why cancer began in me. Nobody really knows what causes it despite zillions of theories. Yes, I was stressed but we all are. I was on this board way before the cancer became apparent to me. I know I had TMS but at the age of 10, they said I had a nervous stomach. Now they call it irritable bowel syndrome, same thing, but I know it was brought on by anxiety. Everything in Sarno's books resonates with me.
I started the thread because I am angry at myself for attributing my stomach pains to TMS. I don't want this to happen to others and feel that many of us wait too long. I wish I would have caught this in stage 2. Stage 1 is pretty symptomless but stage 2 would have a better prognosis than mine, 3C, meaning it spread to, but not into adjacent organs…which would have been stage 4.
When my chemo is over, the hard part will begin because I have to return to my life as it was and it wasn't great. I will most likely see a therapist and probably a TMS therapist if I can find one that takes my insurance. Thanks to everyone for your kind words. |
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Cancer Got Me, Not TMS
