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pspa123
672 Posts |
 Posted - 05/26/2013 : 17:06:48
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| Alix, I am a great believer in the power and importance of the unconscious, but the gremlin thing never resonated with me either. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2013 : 00:52:57
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quote:
Originally posted by maccafan
"In my experience, the state of anxiety, which is perceived by the individual as a psychological malaise, is a reaction to what is being repressed, created by the ego as a distraction, much as it creates depression and physical pain for the same purpose. Anxiety is an equivalent of pain and depression. It, too, acts to assist repression. What the patient fears is not an external but an internal situation of malaise and danger--painful feelings and rage. The patient is not conscious of these feelings. The anxiety is free floating, generalized to all aspects of the person's life. Pain and depression may alternate with anxiety, making it quite clear that they serve the same psychological purpose. This is another example of the symptom imperative, and I have had numerous patients who have exhibited precisely such symptoms. Pain, anxiety, and depression are not symptomatic of illness or disease. They are all part of the normal reacton to frightening unconscious phenomena."
Quoted from The Divided Mind by Dr. John E. Sarno
Copied and posted by a Dr. Sarno Zombie...uh, I mean...by MACCAFAN
Good citation MACCAFAN! Maybe this will help those who are hung-up on the anxiety thing to see anxiety's true role as just one of many TMS symptoms--a TMS affective emotional equivalent. It's all in the books, but there's something about the gremlin that prevents some from seeing it.
Cheers, fellow Zombie #2 for Sarno,
tt/lsmft |
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gailnyc
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2013 : 06:39:41
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| I must have missed something--did someone say something about an "irrational fear gremlin"? Is this a reference to the Taming Your Gremlin book? |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2013 : 08:26:32
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| It is in the books so it must be true is circular reasoning. |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2013 : 08:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
It is in the books so it must be true is circular reasoning.
Sarno calls anxiety a TMS equivalent. The other way to look at that is TMS is a fancy name for anxiety. It's really not so complicated. The human body's defense system is incredibly powerful. Misuse it by living in a state of irrational fear or stress, and pay consequences. We don't need to fear our own minds or any other silliness, IMO. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2013 : 09:08:41
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| I don't know that it's an either or. I can only speak from my own experience, and having had panic attacks so severe that at the time I genuinely would have preferred to be dead, I just do not believe that they were "protecting" me from some repressed unconscious material that was even worse, or that some "gremlin" is preventing me from seeing the truth. Just my two cents. |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2013 : 09:16:57
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The dividing line between those who recover from nervous illness (which TMS assuredly is) and those who don't is what they actually believe. You can write or chant affirmations until you are purple in the face, journal your life's story colored with lots of offensive words about your parents or ex-spouses or children, do yoga with eastern gurus, sit in sweat lodges, beat pillows with mini baseball bats, or many, many other interventions people have undertaken to overcome their problem, but until you do absolutely nothing except understand what you are doing wrong and fix it, nothing will improve. -Hillbilly
That pretty much sums it up for me.
Have a great holiday, all. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2013 : 09:52:32
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
It is in the books so it must be true is circular reasoning.
Why keep hanging around a site dedicated to Dr. Sarno's theories if you don't believe in them and think he doesn't know what he's talking about??? You'll have mentioned being at many other anxiety sites, why take up residence here, just like to argue, weren't well received there? I read HB's success story, lot's of criticism of TMS theory, innuendos against "regulars" here--I wonder who those could have been aimed at? Why not start a HillbillyHelp Site?
You shouldn't break the rules until you know them.
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8D7w0IUIPU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
Edited by - tennis tom on 05/27/2013 09:59:02 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2013 : 10:00:56
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| I don't believe Sarno's theories are necessarily something one must either accept or reject in toto. As does everyone here even those who eventually depart/evolve from his orthodoxy I find a great deal of what he has to say illuminating and persuasive. Other aspects don't resonate, but that doesn't mean I am anti-Sarno or that I think he is worthless etc. Quite to the contrary. As for the forum, it seems to me that despite your apparent wishes it is a forum for ideas about mind-body medicine, and not -- as Hillbilly once put it -- just limited to the four corners of three books. |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2013 : 13:13:19
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I don't feel that arguing over the model Sarno used to explain mindbody syndromes is a rejection of the theory.
Sarno used what was prevalent in the 70s and 80s to explain what he was witnessing. Neuroscience has evolved and it is completely legit to try to reconcile his theories with new discoveries or different models. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2013 : 13:35:29
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| Well when you constantly nitpick the clinical science and studies and lack of studies, reject Freud, rage, anger, distraction, the subconsious, say it's all anxiety, when Sarno says that's just one affective symptom, it pretty much disembowels TMS theory, what do you have left?--a groovy place to hang out at that pretty much no one else on the planet knows about? |
Edited by - tennis tom on 05/27/2013 14:02:29 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2013 : 13:59:23
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Well I went back and read hillbilly's ss and find it to be a complete slap in the face to Dr. Sarno, TMS and this site. He attributes his getting well to Weeks and Low, gives no credit to Dr. Sarno, or the heaps of good free TMS advice he got here, some from me I'm sure. BUT, if you read between HB's lines, what got him better is PURE SARNO, as found in the Good Doctor's fundamentals in his books, what the Good Doctor says to do on every page of his books.
No one says Sarno invented MINDBODY medicine or that his books are the only way to get better, but for HB to have gotten better from him and not give the Good Doctor his due is confounding. I would tell Hillbilly after reading his SS not to let the door slam on his butt on the way out, but he's already left leaving his backhanded complements to Sarno and insults and inuendo towards me and others who helped him get "cured". It is a MAD, MAD, MAD, World as the movie title goes.
Adios amigo
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8D7w0IUIPU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
Edited by - tennis tom on 05/28/2013 09:54:29 |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2013 : 19:53:42
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
I don't believe Sarno's theories are necessarily something one must either accept or reject in toto. As does everyone here even those who eventually depart/evolve from his orthodoxy I find a great deal of what he has to say illuminating and persuasive. Other aspects don't resonate, but that doesn't mean I am anti-Sarno or that I think he is worthless etc. Quite to the contrary. As for the forum, it seems to me that despite your apparent wishes it is a forum for ideas about mind-body medicine, and not -- as Hillbilly once put it -- just limited to the four corners of three books.
Totally agree. I believe in parts of Sarno's theories, others seem like nonsense. But, even Sarno himself continued to morph his theories over the years.... going so far as to rename is own acronym.
At the end of the day, guys like Hillbilly are models for those of us who are done living in a state of fear, digging through endless resources looking for the perfect methodology.
Balto, Hillbilly, Ace... all of these guys got well, completely well... and then showed others around here how to do it. They stopped digging and decided to lose the fear and go back to living, realizing that whether or not the symptoms are a "distraction" or simply the normal biological effects of stress build-up.... the treatment was the same.
I'm just glad after helping scores of people around here heal, Hillbilly took the time to leave words of wisdom in the success forum, along with so many other great stories. |
Edited by - bryan3000 on 05/27/2013 19:56:25 |
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dgreen97
122 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2013 : 12:45:07
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quote:
Sarno calls anxiety a TMS equivalent. The other way to look at that is TMS is a fancy name for anxiety. It's really not so complicated. The human body's defense system is incredibly powerful. Misuse it by living in a state of irrational fear or stress, and pay consequences. We don't need to fear our own minds or any other silliness, IMO.
totally agree with this. just because we're talking about anxiety being essentially the same as TMS doesnt mean we're backhanding Sarno's ideas. I dont understand all of the animosity here towards thinking of other ways different emotional factors play into mind body. There seems to be this resistance to suggesting any other ways of treating TMS pain other than what Sarno suggests I dont know why that is. I'm sure I'll get a quote from this post with something that says "well if you believe that anxiety and TMS are essentially the same then why are you on a TMS forum?" i think thats just bull****. I can't think of other ways anxiety and other emotional factors play along with TMS without being pissed on?
I thought the whole goal here was to help eachother out in any way possible, not just stick to one person's ideas like glue and if you stray away from them in any regard, then you're told to find another forum. Look at how anxiety, nervous illness, TMS, mind body syndrome, are treated. They are all treated the same way and are all based on fear. Why can't we agree on that without bickering back and forth. Every post I read now turns into a bitching match about Sarno's theories versus other people's theories. Whatever works and helps people I think is the best way to go. |
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dgreen97
122 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2013 : 13:28:44
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the other thing is since fear is the root cause of all of this why knock whatever method helps somebody? if sarno's method works for you thats great, if you combine sarno and weekes thats fine too. like others have said on this thread every success story i've read, including SteveO's and Forest's, what they did to eliminate their pain was to eliminate the fear of their pain. In fact neither of them did journaling but just realized that the pain wasn't going to hurt them. Steve pushed through the pain no matter what, Forest was more easy going about it and kept reassuring himself that the pain is not going to hurt him.
If you read other psychotherapist's posts like Alan Gordon talking about outcome independence, you see the same root cause of fear being illustrated. "Whether you're in pain or not, the important thing is that you don't care". This is really saying that you're not activating your fear responses anymore in regards to the pain because it can work both ways. If you're in pain, you're fearful of the pain you're in right now and if it will get worse. When you're having a better day and not having a lot of pain, you're worried when it comes back. It's like a double edged sword. If you don't give a damn if its there or not though, there is the true acceptance of the pain that stops activating the stress response.
I don't see how its a bad thing to intermix methods or suggest other ways to help people to heal. Nobody heals the same way. I'm still not healed because consciously and subconsciously I still fear the pain. I understand what's going on intellectually but the core of my body still fears it and activates the stress response.
I see other people on the forum doing the same thing I do... read book after book, watch videos, success stories, etc. These are helpful don't get me wrong and some people have gotten completely better by using the books or success stories alone. However if you're like me and keep jumping from book to book there is something else going on here... it's short term anxiety relief. Each time you read that new book, or reread that chapter, it's relieving the anxiety/fear you have about the pain in the short term. I'll close the book and feel better for a little while but then the pain comes back and that cycle starts over again. This is helpful in the short term but doesn't do anything for treating the root cause.
I think what's so hard for me and others I've seen is to take that leap.. not keep seeking reassurance if the pain is psychosomatic but actually doing the work necessary and for long enough to get better. Whatever method you choose that works for you is best I dont see why you HAVE to use this doctors method or that doctors method because everybody heals differently. It's the same with pain medication.. for some people a pain killer works wonders and for others it doesn't absolutely nothing. Since this whole thing is so complex its not very smart in my opinion to delegate to people that if they don't follow this one method they aren't going to get better. This just fuels the fire for fear once again. |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2013 : 13:37:25
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Dgreen,
You've got a lot of people with agendas at any given forum.
There is a cult element here that I agree, is best to stay away from. We aren't here to promote agendas, books, theories etc. We're here to take what we can from Sarno and the other greats and heal. More importantly, from each other.
As I've pointed out, the majority of success stories involve major tweaks to Sarno's original concepts, some flat out disagre with him. So, don't worry about what the cool kids are doing. IMO, our goal here is:
1. Learn from real people who have healed. Real people.
2. Help others heal and give back before we go.
3. Get the #### out of this place.
Wishing you quick and total healing.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2013 : 17:44:47
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quote:
Originally posted by bryan3000
Dgreen,
You've got a lot of people with agendas at any given forum.
There is a cult element here that I agree, is best to stay away from.
...We aren't here to promote agendas, books, theories etc.
...As I've pointed out, the majority of success stories involve major tweaks to Sarno's original concepts,
Proud to be a member of the Sarno Cult: Founding member Zombie #2. WARNING: TMS "KNOWLEDGE PENICILLIN" is infectious, keep out.
Oh yes, a lot of hidden agendas around here. It's all a get rich quick scheme--call Ghost Busters. Go Hillbilly, Weeks and Low, more power to you--DIVERSITY is GOOD! Go SteveO! Go Nicole!
I'm here to help any MINDBODY author who innocently ventures into the dangerous bowels of the TMS Help Forum who is complementary to the Good Doctor's thoughts, and hope they sell as many books as they can. What are you gonna' do about it, the jails are full and I have business cards for two criminal defense attorneys, and a bails bondman in my wallet that I play tennis with. Offense: pimping for TMS authors at a TMS message board: GUILTY YOUR HONOR.
Bryan, you have absolutely no evidence for saying the majority of Success Stories involved major tweaks. Actually, I've seen the majority who come here, just read a TMS book, get some reinforcement, get it, and are "cured", going on their merry way, never to be heard from here again.
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8D7w0IUIPU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Dr. Sarno is now retired, if you call this number you will be referred to his associate Dr. Rashbaum.
"...there are so many things little and big that are tms, I wouldn't have time to write about all of them": Told to icelikeaninja by Dr. Sarno
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
Edited by - tennis tom on 06/05/2013 14:46:25 |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2013 : 13:10:22
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| Q/A is developing on the thread, for those interested. Just updating. |
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Hillbilly writes his success story!
