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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
 Posted - 05/13/2013 : 10:47:52
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I have had TMS for years and thanks to this forum and Sarnos books it has been a great relief for me knowing that my symptoms are psychosomatic. That alone has taken the edge of them. A few months ago (before I knew about TMS) I had almost a break down (due to my constant anxiety) and my GP arranged an appointment with a psychiatrist later this month. I don't know how I did it because I was at a very low point then but I think I am doing much better at the moment (without medicine), writing down my thoughts, realising what an angry person I am and where my low self esteem is coming from. I am doing a lot of thinking and reading. Strangely enough my (conscious) anger and my impatience have become much worse lately but I am also much more aware of my anger. Don't know what this means. I realise I have a lot of work to do but I am on my way.
I still think I need some sort of therapy as I have a great need to talk to somebody completely openly and honestly. What I don't know is whether it should be CBT or psychonanalysis (I think Sarno suggests the latter). Should I just leave everything to the psychiatrist? On the other hand I have read so many threads lately and have become a lot wiser on many things. I don't want to interfere with her treatment but I know if she cannot acknowledge that my symptoms are TMS I will not be able to continue. If that should be the case
I know I will immediately get doubts whether I will actually be able to get better all on my own. It seems I don't trust myself to treat myself. I know there are a lot of "if" and "when" but I would like to be prepared. I am not that young any more. I feel this therapy is my last shot knowing of course that the result might not be what I was hoping for which is wanting to dig down in my past (to my inner child) in order to see quite clearly how come I have such low self esteem, insecurity and social anxiety.
Thanks for any input |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 11:57:13
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| Hi indiana. I suffer from a lot of what you describe. If I had access to professional treatment, I would take it. However, it is important that you get the treatment that is right for you. Before deciding on a therapist, you might want to read Dr. James Alexander's book called "The Hidden Psychology of Pain". This book picks up where Dr. Sarno left off. It provides an excellent summary of the problem of TMS and what forms of treatments are available today. This book could help both you and your therapist decide on a workable course of treatment for you. There is also a lot of self-help stuff in the book also. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 12:03:21
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| Chickenbone I have to ask the question, Did Dr James' book contribute in anyway to your improvement? This is the most important question. If so by how much? If it more an overview, this may not be what indiana wants, if on the other hand it helped you achieve a better state because of its contents, then it is definately worth it. |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 14:46:16
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quote:
[i] Don't know what this means. I realise I have a lot of work to do but I am on my way.I still think I need some sort of therapy as I have a great need to talk to somebody completely openly and honestly. What I don't know is whether it should be CBT or psychonanalysis (I think Sarno suggests the latter). Should I just leave everything to the psychiatrist? On the other hand I have read so many threads lately and have become a lot wiser on many things.
The problem I found with psychotherapy is that there are so few psychiatrists and counselors who practice psychotherapy. The psychiatrist gives you some meds and then sends you to a counselor. Most psychiatrists do not accept the idea of emotions causing physical distress, and many counselors do not either.
If you have a trusted friend, or even can make one on one of the TMS sites, it might serve to expunge the emotions and find some relief in being totally honest. Often, it hard to do this with close friends, as you have a big investment in how they perceive you. That is why perhaps a friend who has been through the same but is not too close (there are probably more people you know than you think who have been where you are). Once you talk things out things often get easier and you find that you are practicing CBT without even knowing.
Another factor is the cost and the clock watching. I went to a counselor who had a clock on her desk that she would look at throughout the session. I know they have to make money, but the idea that I was just another psycho-widget to process was a turn-off and I stopped going.
I began to examine my life and and personality based on Sarno's books and found I fit a number of those personalities. I then went back in time to see and understand the different patterns of action and reaction and how they applied to the current stresses in life. I learned that I was not who I thought I was, and that my thoughts were not mine but adapted by the words and phrases I associated with the person I was and had been. I was a ball of fear.
Luckily, I found two things that helped me further. One was a friend but not a close friend, who had suffered the same and also a massage therapist who did nothing to reduce the chronically tight muscles but explained how muscles work and that my case was nothing out of the ordinary, and we got along very well. It was soothing to know this and eventually the muscles relaxed.
Talk to a friend, or find a good counselor, but read and re-read "The Keys", and meditate on them and apply them personally and you might find that it will be enough.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
Edited by - Back2-It on 05/13/2013 14:48:32 |
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Dr James Alexander
Australia
127 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 18:50:12
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Indiana- when it comes to most problems other than chronic pain, research suggests that CBT is about as effective as any other approach (including psychoanalysis)- there are many approaches to choose from,and it think its a matter of finding one that suits the kind of person you are and your interests. Than, apart from the approach, you want to find a therapist who you can relate to- what kind of person are they? There needs to be a reasonable match. However, when it comes to chronic pain, there is simply no evidence that CBT can help other than help you to adjust to the fact that you are in pain. This may be a welcome relief for some/many, but the goal of the TMS approach is to help you to either radically reduce the pain or to become pain free. There is evidence (eg. Sarno's outcome studies) that a depth-psychology approach is more helpful in achieving this. Psychoanalysis is only one variation of depth-psychology. If you want to use the TMS approach, then it is important that you are invited by your therapist to go beyond surface level thoughts and feelings (which is where CBT keeps it- all very safe, and largely ineffective in dealing with chronic pain). If you think your pain is resulting from traumatic experiences, my suggestion is to explore EMDR (see my website for more details: www.drjamesalexander-psychologist.com). If you think your pain is resulting from pain incurred as a child from unloving parents, neglect etc (ie. more what positive things didnt happen rather than what bad things did happen), then i'd suggest Coherence Therapy- google it, and there is some stuff about this on my website as well. If you want to just learn how to manage being in pain, CBT will help.
James |
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indiana
Denmark
70 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 22:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by indiana
I have had TMS for years and thanks to this forum and Sarnos books it has been a great relief for me knowing that my symptoms are psychosomatic. That alone has taken the edge of them. A few months ago (before I knew about TMS) I had almost a break down (due to my constant anxiety) and my GP arranged an appointment with a psychiatrist later this month. I don't know how I did it because I was at a very low point then but I think I am doing much better at the moment (without medicine), writing down my thoughts, realising what an angry person I am and where my low self esteem is coming from. I am doing a lot of thinking and reading. Strangely enough my (conscious) anger and my impatience have become much worse lately but I am also much more aware of my anger. Don't know what this means. I realise I have a lot of work to do but I am on my way.
I still think I need some sort of therapy as I have a great need to talk to somebody completely openly and honestly. What I don't know is whether it should be CBT or psychonanalysis (I think Sarno suggests the latter). Should I just leave everything to the psychiatrist? On the other hand I have read so many threads lately and have become a lot wiser on many things. I don't want to interfere with her treatment but I know if she cannot acknowledge that my symptoms are TMS I will not be able to continue. If that should be the case
I know I will immediately get doubts whether I will actually be able to get better all on my own. It seems I don't trust myself to treat myself. I know there are a lot of "if" and "when" but I would like to be prepared. I am not that young any more. I feel this therapy is my last shot knowing of course that the result might not be what I was hoping for which is wanting to dig down in my past (to my inner child) in order to see quite clearly how come I have such low self esteem, insecurity and social anxiety.
Thanks for any input
Thank you everybody for your replies. I will be away for a few days with no computer access and shall revert
Marlis |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2013 : 09:31:03
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| Ace1, I don't think this has anything to do with what may or may not have helped ME, but it has everything to do with what can help indiana. She stated in her post that she came close to a breakdown and her doctor thinks she needs professional help. It sounds to me like her problem is fairly serious and I felt that to suggest self-help alone would be irresponsible. Her specific request to the forum was for help in finding a good TMS therapist. I feel that Dr. Alexander's book offers the most comprehensive coverage of the topic, including ways to help herself in the meantime. I appreciate that he took the time to answer her post. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2013 : 11:09:16
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| There are a lot of therapies and approaches out there. A book such as Dr. James' that describes them professionally and critically can be a very good resource for someone new to the field even if in and of itself it doesn't provide a measurable improvement to the reader. |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2013 : 12:14:01
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I was where Indiana was, and worse. I did have a complete breakdown. While CBT may keep things in safe and "on the surface", it can be a useful step in the WILLINGNESS to accept your pain. This in itself can be comforting and a way of training your thoughts toward deeper healing.
Then you can dig around in emotions if the results are not providing the "cure", but often facing the fear of the pain will initiate a cure for most.
Once the emotions are at least understood to be the cause, and if you can establish patterns of the past that carry through to the present, and make adjustments that you can, you will find that you are practicing CBT without knowing. That is my opinion, anyway.
In addition, CBT has modified over the years and grown. If Indiana wants to explore further I would suggest Steven C. Hayes "Get Out of Your Mind and into Your Life," which is the "third wave" of CBT. Also, as a companion piece I would suggest the CD of "A New Earth", by Eckhart Tolle, which, in my opinion, is a spiritual approach to newer CBT. In fact, I would not explore one without the other, because it rounds out the ideas in full dimension.
Still, the iQuick way to get an understanding is to read and re-read "The Keys". Maybe record them and play them back to yourself, as often auditory is more effective and lasting than simply reading. I wish I had had The Keys when I was suffering. Meditate on them, digest them word by word, apply it personally to your thoughts and actions, and you will have the ultimate companion piece to the authors mentioned above.
I'm just a guy on a forum. If you can find good professional help, then that is a good way to go, too.
You will get there, Indiana.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
Edited by - Back2-It on 05/14/2013 12:17:33 |
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Dr James Alexander
Australia
127 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2013 : 22:02:27
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Back2it- totally agree with you. I think Hayes approach, and Tolle are excellent- one from a psychological perspective, the other from a spiritual one. I mention them both and give them a ringing endorsement in my book. But are what they doing actually CBT, or is the calling of them CBT just a clever marketing strategy? For more discussion on this (if interested) go to my blog entry called 'New variants of CBT?' on page 2 of:-
http://drjamespsychologist-com.webs.com/apps/blog/
James |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 04:38:27
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| But Indiana was asking a simple question that only required a simple answer. Do you think she needs to read a some hundred page book to have her question answered. Also in no way would it be irresponsible for Indiana to do self help alone. That what I did and I had a severe case. Now if she wants the help of a therapist to possibly speed her recovery along, that is her choice. I don't think the majority would want to read an extra book if the book did not help them recover. I sure would not. One way to state about a book that's an overview would be, this book is well written, interesting and a good read. It may help me narrow down the type of therapist I will choose, but it in itself did not give me more insight into helping me achieve a higher level of recovery. The problem is when books get reviews like - this book is great, many desperate sufferers are thinking, well maybe this is it this is the book that might help me. They spend their time and money on the book instead of focusing on recovery. Let me give you an example of a book that many people have stated that has lead to their recovery - Claire weeks hope and help for your nerves. This particular book did not add to my recovery but for many people it did and therefore it is a good book to recommend. These are just my thoughts on the matter. In my case it doesn't matter bc I don't need to buy a single other book on the matter except to just review it. I just know how I felt before which is why I state what I state. I really do just want the best for the people who are suffering on this board. |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 05:21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
But Indiana was asking a simple question that only required a simple answer. Do you think she needs to read a some hundred page book to have her question answered. Also in no way would it be irresponsible for Indiana to do self help alone. That what I did and I had a severe case. Now if she wants the help of a therapist to possibly speed her recovery along, that is her choice. I don't think the majority would want to read an extra book if the book did not help them recover. I sure would not. One way to state about a book that's an overview would be, this book is well written, interesting and a good read. It may help me narrow down the type of therapist I will choose, but it in itself did not give me more insight into helping me achieve a higher level of recovery. The problem is when books get reviews like - this book is great, many desperate sufferers are thinking, well maybe this is it this is the book that might help me. They spend their time and money on the book instead of focusing on recovery. Let me give you an example of a book that many people have stated that has lead to their recovery - Claire weeks hope and help for your nerves. This particular book did not add to my recovery but for many people it did and therefore it is a good book to recommend. These are just my thoughts on the matter. In my case it doesn't matter bc I don't need to buy a single other book on the matter except to just review it. I just know how I felt before which is why I state what I state. I really do just want the best for the people who are suffering on this board.
Having experienced the grave misfortune of encountering therapists who were inept and misinformed, I'd like to add an essential consideration. Before choosing a therapy and therapist, one needs to be well-informed. I'm grateful to James for suggesting that all potential therapists be 'interviewed' for suitability. This is particularly important if trauma is a factor. In this spirit I believe it serves to be as fully versed with the choices as possible.
Ace1, I posed a question for you on another thread which I'll restate here:
- Ace1, I'm not sure what your experience of trauma is, be that personal or in helping others, so for clarification, do you really believe your approach is enough to deal with traumatic events? (Particularly with reference to dissociation.)
The thread is here:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8501 |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 07:29:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr James Alexander
Back2it- totally agree with you. I think Hayes approach, and Tolle are excellent- one from a psychological perspective, the other from a spiritual one. I mention them both and give them a ringing endorsement in my book. But are what they doing actually CBT, or is the calling of them CBT just a clever marketing strategy? For more discussion on this (if interested) go to my blog entry called 'New variants of CBT?' on page 2 of:-
http://drjamespsychologist-com.webs.com/apps/blog/
James
Doctor, I'm not qualified to determine what is called what. I just think that both books can be useful for some people who find themselves stuck and who need a big picture outlook (Tolle) and a way to apply it daily (Hayes).
I also think that a good counselor can help, too, but as I have stated and experienced, there are so few that practice psychotherapy.
The real problem in our American and Western society are the fractured institutions, in my opinion. Every day life now so different from when I grew up, where you knew everybody on the block and if your extended family was not on the block, the other mothers and fathers and kids were your family. Now, when somebody is in trouble or sick, they have, if they are lucky, their immediate family to help, or spouse, and they can only shoulder so much of the burden before they burn out. The person sick feels alone and the family feels the stress.
This will only get worse the more people live the curse of Facebook and Twitter.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
Edited by - Back2-It on 05/15/2013 07:32:38 |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 07:30:25
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| Dear plum, my experience is also with people who had trauma and yes my approach works for it too, but it generally takes longer and takes more practice. In my expereience the trauma only becomes an issue when it affects the present moment (which it usually does). |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 09:35:43
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Back2-It, Dr. James and Plum - I totally agree. Excellent posts.
I also agree that a lot of the newer "CBT" approaches are really not CBT at all, but call themselves that for marketing purposes. I think CBT has sort of reached the end of it's usefulness for treating certain psychological disorders. CBT, in it's original form, only deals with what the conscious mind can accomplish. This is not to say that it can't heavily influence the unconscious, which is where most TMS originates. But I have come to believe, through personal experience, that the conscious mind simply cannot deal effectively with severe childhood trauma and some severe forms of PTSD. I believe this is because survival and animal instincts are heavily involved. These are magnitudes of order stronger and more willful than the conscious mind. The conscious mind is really only a recent "add-on" to the human mind, probably not more than 2,000 to 3,000 years old. There is a really good book by Julian Janes called "The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind", that effectively argues this point. But I digress.
So, Ace, I think the "Keys" are fabulous and I believe I have given them much credit for starting my recovery. We are all so grateful for what you did for all of us. However, I kept reading books because I realized that my issues were very deep and serious, like Plum's, because of having heavy childhood trauma. The "Keys" do still help a lot and I have most of them practically memorized. But do I think that they provide a "one size fits all" cure for everyone, no matter what their issues are? NO. The "Keys" are primarily a CBT approach which I am convinced will not work for everyone, no matter how long they practice them. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 09:57:26
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| Chickenbone, I guess we can agree to disagree. I have to ask though you say that it cannot work for more extensive trauma, how did you come to that conclusion? Is it because it hasnt helped you so far in to making you totally free of symptoms as of yet? Did you know many holocost survivors lived to a ripe old age with minimal illnesses. DId you know that Balto discusses many in the 3rd world who have been raped, who had been starving and probably had more trauma than most on this board, but yet they are not ill. This cannot be the major issue or all of these folks would be in horible shape bar none. There are many reasons why I think TMS does not happen in them which Balto has mentioned before. I think there is a big problem with thinking that you absolutely need a therapist as you will inhibit your own healing this way. A therapist may help, but it is really you that can get you out of the mess of TMS. |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 11:30:01
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Hi Ace,
Yes, it did not completely work for my trauma. I do not rule out the possibility that it eventually could have, but frankly, I am not willing to wait that long when I have other options. I am not only considering EMDR, but also spiritual healing that deals with energies directly. I had some experience in the past with this approach and it worked very well until I stopped doing it. I also knew of Holocaust survivors who were cured in this way. We must not fall into the trap of thinking that whatever worked for us, even other people we know, is guaranteed to work for everyone. Personal style and culture have a lot to do with it.
Also, Ace, please understand me correctly. I did not say, nor do I mean to imply, that the "Keys" cannot work for severe trauma. They obviously can, but just not guaranteed to work. I have said many times that I think everyone should at least TRY the Keys, I even began a thread that went nowhere. When I suggested Dr. Alexander's book, I did not mean to imply that indiana should not use the Keys. I did accidentally omit them but only because she specifically asked for advice about professional help as if that was what she had decided. We must have respect for the express wishes of the author of the thread. I think you are making something out of nothing and I really hope you don't jump all over my posts in the future should I forget to mention the Keys. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 13:42:31
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| Dear chickenbone, I think your reading me wrong, which can happen easily over the internet. Really it had nothing to do with the keys. I dont even want any acknolgement about them, and I do mean that really. If they are also not helpful to someone, I am willing to understand that and go back to the drawing board. I just try to bring up a point or challenge an Idea that was brought up (not challenge the person (you), but ONLY the idea). If I dont, how will someone know what the truth is? Not that Im saying I only know the truth, but I will ask logical questions to make you come to the conclusion of the truth. When I suffered, I failed a million times over, I asked myslef these questions and only through deductive reasoning and trial and error was I able to come up with what I know. It is not obvious and yes it is very hard. Unless you fully understand something with TMS, you will never be able to get better. In other words, you have to prove the facts to yourself. Im sorry if I offended you, When anyone makes a point to which I dont agree with I give my counter-argument. I could be wrong about anything I say but lets bring it to the light with back and forth discussions, please dont take it like I am attacking you. Why would I? You seem like a very nice person. I wish you the best with your recovery. BTW, my initial question about your post was about Dr. James's book and if it helped you recover, how is that jumping over your posts when you dont mention the keys. I want to know so if Im missing something, I'll know for the future. |
Edited by - Ace1 on 05/15/2013 13:45:52 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 16:47:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
Chickenbone, I guess we can agree to disagree. I have to ask though you say that it cannot work for more extensive trauma, how did you come to that conclusion? Is it because it hasnt helped you so far in to making you totally free of symptoms as of yet? Did you know many holocost survivors lived to a ripe old age with minimal illnesses. DId you know that Balto discusses many in the 3rd world who have been raped, who had been starving and probably had more trauma than most on this board, but yet they are not ill. This cannot be the major issue or all of these folks would be in horible shape bar none. There are many reasons why I think TMS does not happen in them which Balto has mentioned before.
Ace1, I don't want to misinterpret what you are saying. Are you saying it's your opinion that trauma is less of a cause of TMS than, say, being in a rush, which I believe you have said is a leading cause or the leading cause? |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 17:29:23
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Ace1, me lovely, thanking you for your answer, and I'll retrospectively acknowledge that your speciality includes a particular kind of trauma. Levine does address the impact of medical intervention and not a moment too soon. I can testify to that.
I feel a bit uneasy. I'm not taking a hidden pop in any way and agree that most meaning manages to squeeze it's way out of cyber exchanges. Mine was a sincere question. However goodness triumphs! Maybe you can embrace something specifically about trauma in your keys. All fine things are in evolution.
chickenbone, you've read Jaynes? Far out. I've only met one other person whose actually done so. If you've also read Bentov's 'Stalking the Wild Pendulum' then we must found a Queendom. |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 17:36:51
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pspa123, in all fairness to Ace1, the whole rushing/jumping through hoops/falling over oneself, others and things is a spillover of the trauma legacy for me.
It's too late and too thorny to detail right now but I find it's a componant of 'strain' or what-have-you. Maybe not for everyone but there's a definite seasoning in the mix here. |
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CBT or Psychoanalysis
