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art
1903 Posts |
 Posted - 04/30/2013 : 06:39:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
Hi art, thank you for your great advice. Yes fear definetly is a factor. In my case though my fear was also a tms equivalent. Do you remember in healing back pain, dr sarno said he is beginning to think anger is more important than anxiety in the generation of tms? I think he meant that because fear is an equivalent of tms a lot of times and was a result of the anger/intensity. Now obviously, one does not want to consciously worry about their symptoms or be constantly afraid of certain things in ones life. I think that is a different kind of fear than the one that there is no reason for and definetly can start and perpetuate tms.
Hey Ace,
Frustrating to the point of TMS inducing that I had a long reply to the above as the topic interests me, and somehow managed to delete instead of send. IN brief, I wanted to ask how you make the distinction between fear as a tms equivalent, and fear as a primary response...
I also had a few paragraphs about my take on Sarno's unconscious rage hypothesis (untestable and not very useful it seems to me, given that EVERYONE can be said to be having unconscious rage...essentially ALL THE TIME if you buy the Freudian "id" notion.
The connection between anxiety and pain for me is quite strong. Here's a very recent example. Yesterday I was driving from a funeral service at a synagogue to the grave site. It was a long journey....perhaps 25 miles....and the pain I've been having off and on in my right knee ebbed and flowed in beautiful synchronicity with my anxiety levels in the funeral procession as I tried to keep up with the car ahead of me in the midst of difficult and chaotic traffic conditions.
This kind of thing happens to me all the time. IN this regard I'd say I'm pretty fortunate. I long ago discarded all ideas of unconscious rage as unnecessary and confusing. |
Edited by - art on 04/30/2013 06:42:55 |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 08:24:15
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| Art I agree with you 100% about that unconscious rage theory. It doesn't make sense and slowed my recovery. There are other points in healing back pain that dr sarno states that make total sense though, like the one i stated before. Ok may I plant a different take on your drive. You were trying so hard to keep up with the car in front of you (intensity), while probably wanting to get this long ride over with (being in a rush). You may have done this event with too much importance than what is needed. The anxiety came about ( along with the pain) bc of these reasons (the basic cause). So as you can see there was no fear initially or anxiety it was the intensity and impatience that lead to the anxiety or fear that lead to the symptoms. Does this make sense? |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 14:51:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
Art I agree with you 100% about that unconscious rage theory. It doesn't make sense and slowed my recovery. There are other points in healing back pain that dr sarno states that make total sense though, like the one i stated before. Ok may I plant a different take on your drive. You were trying so hard to keep up with the car in front of you (intensity), while probably wanting to get this long ride over with (being in a rush). You may have done this event with too much importance than what is needed. The anxiety came about ( along with the pain) bc of these reasons (the basic cause). So as you can see there was no fear initially or anxiety it was the intensity and impatience that lead to the anxiety or fear that lead to the symptoms. Does this make sense?
Hi Ace1. My thought is that "intensity" to keep up with the car in front, that "rush" mentality created stress and our mind view those stress as a sign of danger. It will create "fight or flight" respond which in sensitive people like us will at time create symptoms. Those symptoms will go away once the "danger" has passed. If the symptoms don't go away it is because the mind still see "danger" which in this case it is fear of the symptoms.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 15:20:29
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Interesting that in the thread just under this one as I post, Dave advises:
"I suggest to re-read The Mindbody Connnection and keep diving deeper into the sources of repressed rage."
The debate goes on. I had a great deal of difficulty with the conflicting advice when I first came to this forum looking for direction, and I can appreciate how it could be hard for others in that position. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 16:44:33
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
Interesting that in the thread just under this one as I post, Dave advises:
"I suggest to re-read The Mindbody Connnection and keep diving deeper into the sources of repressed rage."
The debate goes on. I had a great deal of difficulty with the conflicting advice when I first came to this forum looking for direction, and I can appreciate how it could be hard for others in that position.
Hi pspa, some people told me the same thing. It was very confusing for them to read all the different approach and theories on what caused tms/anxiety. But they also told me it helped them "think" and help them realize that not everything is structural and conventional medicine is not the answer for all their ills.
Now they just have to sort out what mind body approach is best for them or make the most sense to them. My thought is it doesn't matter what they believe in, as long as they believe it is tms/anxiety, they are half way there.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 16:54:13
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| Balto you are right there is doubtless lots of common ground. But i remember when i would ask more focused questions and get polar opposite answers it would frustrate me and i would feel i was the problem and just wasnt understanding. But now i see the answers were in fact polar opposite. Go with what resonates the most i guess. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 17:10:46
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| Hi balto, but for some they continue to behave in the intense way and rushed way which makes the fear perpetuate (you are continuing the fight or flight mode). In this case the fear is an equivalent. In the case where someone is just temporarily under a significant situation, then they got tms, then the situation goes away but now they are afraid bc of their symptoms only, then the fear is a conscious fear and not an equivalent and must be overcome to get better. in my case though none of my fear was conscious and chosen, it was all secondary to my behavior. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 18:13:09
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If you are in doubt or confused by posts at this message board that contradict Dr. Sarno, then reread HIS books. Unfortunately, he's never visited here to clarify his theory, which is beautifully simple, until muddled up by psychobabble. I would advise reading his latest book, which will have his most up to date clinical research findings in it. If you think you know better then the Good Doctor, cure yourself your way, write a book, announce it here and you'll probably sell at least twenty copies.
G'luck!
tt/lsmft
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DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
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"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 18:20:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
in my case though none of my fear was conscious and chosen, it was all secondary to my behavior.
I think in your above case if you have no fear then your symptoms are all due to conditioning.
You don't fear coffee and yet coffee trigger your panic attack.
You're having fun running from rides to rides at Disneyland, you don't fear running but yet running ("rush") would trigger symptoms.
Your milk would cause stomach discomfort (there is no rushing here)
The sight of your mother in-law's house can cause back pain.
Many things we do while calm and relax can cause symptoms to appear. Our mind were condition to produce symptoms due to conditioning or expectation or perception.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 19:08:51
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| Ok let me illustrate, let's say I was driving to work, I had made myself so excited about it for so long that I went into fight or flight automatically when driving to work. I started to do that into everything so I was in pain all the time. As I started to get better, I got the pain when driving to work, but not driving the same road to somewhere else. If it was conditioning to the road, i should get it the same in both stuations. I had to stop that intensity about me to get better. The reason I was conditioned to have symptoms in these situations, is because I acted too intense in these situations for too long. So, i became automatically intense out of habit. No fear was involved in my case. I never thought being fast or intense was bad, so how would that lead to conditioning, unless those behaviors themselves were causative. I was so used to doing things in a certain way, that it was natural and as I developed pain, those bad habits of rush and intensity only intensified and fed the cause if my pain. Disney land is something that I did rarely so I couldn't be conditioned to it. Your saying I could be conditioned to the rush its self, but I never feared the rush or anticipated it like drinking milk or going through a tunnel, so I doubt I could have been conditioned to the rush. |
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What didn't happen
