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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
 Posted - 03/18/2013 : 19:06:48
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| In the last 20 years, I have been on and off low dose amitriptiline at least 8 times. Every time I have gone off of it, I have never had any problem doing this. The last time I went off (25mg) was about 3 years ago and I stayed off for about 8 months. Then I decided to start taking it again because I just felt better when I was taking it. My mood was much better, I felt more optimistic and I was less inclined to enjoy the bad news in the world. My husband (a doctor) strongly felt that I had everything to gain and not much to lose from taking it. Then, based on some books I read recently and the fact that I just don't like taking meds in general, I decided to stop taking it again. I first cut down to 10mg and then after a month of that, stopped it completely. I had no adverse effects from the withdrawal. However, now I am noticing (and my husband too, so it is not just my imagination) that my mood has gone into the toilet again. I am back heavily into conspiracy theory, hoping to see some huge disaster like a big asteroid hits the earth before I die, and generally in love with all manner of bad news again. Of course, this also getting me revved up. I am now extremely easily angered and impatient with everything. I just keep getting worse and worse. This is a shame because I was doing so well with the Keys. I am going to begin taking the 10mg again tonight and I will never let anyone talk me into not taking them again. I don't believe that they are placebo, at least not for me. I think I can quickly get back the good progress I have made, at least the pain hasn't come back, but I have had hints of it. I really think I get great benefit from the serotonin lift. |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 19:19:57
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I don't think it is a placebo.
I heard people taking Tramadol for acute pain and discovering that their life long depression vanished while on it. It is not that they were expecting Tramadol to have any effect on their mood. That was a completely unexpected side effect. |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 20:43:57
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| Interesting, Alix. I have repeatedly taken bad advice to get off the antidepressant and my husband gets annoyed with me each time. He knows that they do help me. |
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Dr James Alexander
Australia
127 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 22:13:19
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chickenbone- i am all in favour of freedom of choice and informed consent; and have no problems with people using anything which they feel works for them. Viva la choice!
James |
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RikR
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 07:28:56
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I spent 12 years working in a clinic assisting people off psyche drugs. With long term use it can take a year or longer for the brain to normalize. Most doctors see the withdrawal symptoms as a return of the patients condition and re-medicate.
These are powerful brain altering drugs with some having long term health consequences. Because they alter neurotransmitters found all through the body they can have many long term effects. We are seeing TCA causing cardiac issues as we do with SSRi’s. You husband is a doctor – this is in the literature he should be aware of.
The people at Survivingantidepressants.com have a lot of information |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 07:42:44
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quote:
Originally posted by RikR
I spent 12 years working in a clinic assisting people off psyche drugs. With long term use it can take a year or longer for the brain to normalize. Most doctors see the withdrawal symptoms as a return of the patients condition and re-medicate.
These are powerful brain altering drugs with some having long term health consequences. Because they alter neurotransmitters found all through the body they can have many long term effects. We are seeing TCA causing cardiac issues as we do with SSRi’s. You husband is a doctor – this is in the literature he should be aware of.
The people at Survivingantidepressants.com have a lot of information
You've just witnessed a GIGANTIC NOCEBO! That info would probably have a more powerful and long term effect on the mindbody then any drug. |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 07:43:02
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Hi Dr. James,
I hope you don't think it was your book that I meant. I love your book, it was invaluable to my recovery. It is the best book on Psychology out today and I think most people would agree.
One of the books I read that has some value, but gives a lot of really bad advice is Peter Breggins book. I have read extensively about psychotropic drugs and I think the truest statement you can make about them is that "The specific effect on any individual brain chemistry is completely uncertain".
What I am trying to do, with some luck, is to substitute Shiff's Melatonin Complex for the antidepressant. Although they might be slightly different, from what I have read, they do pretty much the same thing. The Melatonin Complex contains 3mg melatonin, 25mg L-Theanine, 25mg GABA, Vitamin B6 and calcium. I think, in time, I might be able to make the switch. Why pay Big Pharma which I can't stand? I am very happy to be able to seriously cut down on the drugs. I have been completely off the Zolpidem for 3 months. I have successfully cut my antidepressant from 25 to 10. I thank you for your help with this. I guess the point I was trying to make is that I need some mood enhancer. I have too much affinity for the negative. I enjoy this to some extent because I take a very dim view of human nature and am continually mystified by man's innate ability to self destruction. Right now, I am extremely energized by the renewed economic chaos in Europe with this stuff happening in Cyprus. I was somewhat disappointed that the inevitable collapse of the European Union was temporarily put on hold, but now I think there is a good chance the whole thing will blow up in the Brussels Bureaucrats faces after all. Thus will end another tragic episode in central planning. I plan to really enjoy it when it finally happens. I find the whole thing extremely entertaining. One of my favorite books is "The Fourth Turning" by Neil Howe. We are way overdue for a huge crisis or series of crisis. My husband says "be careful what you wish for" and he is right, but it sure would be fun to see a huge crisis. I am, however, very optimistic about life after the big crisis.
Anyway, sorry or the rant. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 07:49:53
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If there is a huge crisis and ordinary people suffer financially why would that be fun to watch? Maybe i am missing your point.
As for Peter Bteggin yes he is an extremist but he deserves tremendous credit in my opinion for being among the firstnto take a stand against the thoughtless proliferation of psych drugs and the medicating of healthy children.
Oh and lastly I am pretty sure oral GABA does not cross the blood brain barrier so not sure whatbthat will do for you, and it is a tiny dose as well. On the other hand melatonin works very well for me as an occasional sleep aid. I know some people think it is a placebo but whatever. |
Edited by - pspa123 on 03/19/2013 07:53:30 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 08:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
...I have too much affinity for the negative. I enjoy this to some extent because I take a very dim view of human nature and am continually mystified by man's innate ability to self destruction. Right now, I am extremely energized by the renewed economic chaos in Europe with this stuff happening in Cyprus. I was somewhat disappointed that the inevitable collapse of the European Union was temporarily put on hold, but now I think there is a good chance the whole thing will blow up in the Brussels Bureaucrats faces after all. Thus will end another tragic episode in central planning. I plan to really enjoy it when it finally happens. I find the whole thing extremely entertaining. One of my favorite books is "The Fourth Turning" by Neil Howe. We are way overdue for a huge crisis or series of crisis. My husband says "be careful what you wish for" and he is right, but it sure would be fun to see a huge crisis. I am, however, very optimistic about life after the big crisis.
I also was a news junky. I now don't read or watch any accept maybe 10 minutes in the shower and never felt better mentaly. I'll only pay attention to the news if I'm in it and I try to stay out of it. There's very little you can do to change the new anyway.
"Crisis" are part of the normal economic cycle. From my research on bubbles and market crashes, there are two common denominators for ALL market crashes since the Dutch Tulip crash: When the free money dries up AND the government tries to fix it. Don't keep all your eggs in one basket.
tt/lsmft |
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RikR
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 08:24:37
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The antidepressant you were taking has an action on 4 neurotransmitters and none on melatonin. It does on serotonin that is required to make melatonin. However once a TCA is used the system can be altered so that oral supplements are not effective. Your body will tell you in a couple of weeks if it will work.
You are better off with pure Melatonin – oral GABA does not cross the blood brain barrier and can have strange effects and L-Theanine can be a problem. The lesson 101 in pharmacology is to only introduce one thing at time and at the lowest therapeutic dose.
Zolpidem in as little as 4 weeks can alter the sleep center in the brain mediated by GABAa receptors. These can take a very, very long time to return to normal.
Short term melatonin of a couple of weeks is pretty harmless. Longer and it can alter the normal serotonin/melatonin pathways. It can also alter the Enterochromaffin cells in the gut.
The human brain is designed to utilize tiny nano amounts of chemicals at precise times. These drugs and supplements are like planting petunias with a bulldozer.
The brain heals best when totally left alone. Neurophysiologists have found that psyce and some other drugs cause a condition called “neuronal amnesia” which means the drugs prevent the nervous system/brain from remembering what normal is.
A negative bias is a learned cognitive behavior that no drug will fix. If you want to look at things causing distractions from internal work negative bias is WAY more powerful than decades old emotions. A negative bias creates threat to the limbic system hundreds of times a day.
And Tennis Tom if you consider accurate information to be a nocebo then so be it for you.
I prefer to have accurate information so that I can make a mature, intelligent decision. I respected and cared about my patients enough to offer them the same. |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 08:30:55
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I understand you, pspa, about the collateral damage to ordinary people and am really sorry for that. I don't so much mean that I am happy to have stuff like this happen, but it is sort of a defense mechanism because of the inevitability of periodic crisis which I blame on our politicians and special interests. History is littered with this stuff. Hoping that this kind of thing won't happen again seems to be a human disease. If you can't fight it, you might as well enjoy it.
I also agree with you that the Breggin book needed to be written. I just think it is the book to read BEFORE deciding on psychotropic drugs and not especially good advice or good reading for someone who has been taking these drugs for a long time. And, yes, I agree with you that he points out the truth of the irresponsible manner in which Big Pharma and Psychiatrists give these drugs out like candy, but anyone who did not already know that is frankly stupid. I have always been aware of that and have always been careful. If there were not so many really terrible therapists in the world, maybe I would not have gone that route in the first place.
Rikr - You seem to know a lot about this subject of drugs. What is your opinion of the melatonin-type supplements? Do you think they are dangerous also? I think you have to weigh the risks. Regarding TT's post, that is a big NOCEBO. However, since I have very little faith in the medical profession anyway, I am much less vulnerable to nocebo effects. I am not in the least concerned about cardiac effects. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 08:32:17
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quote:
Originally posted by RikR
And Tennis Tom if you consider accurate information to be a nocebo then so be it for you.
As Mark Twain wrote: "Be careful what you read in medical books, you may die of a misprint."
tt/lsmft
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 08:50:19
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Rikr - Thanks so much for your valuable information. I guess I will just give up the supplements and keep taking the 10mg antidepressant.
I guess it is too bad that I find negative bias to be so interesting and addictive. And this is largely a conscious decision. I succeed in getting away from it for awhile, but always go back to it when I become extremely bored with life. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 08:54:31
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I think it's time to replay the article on "Segmented Sleep" that Balto originally found a while back:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783
You folks are making a "problem" out of something that in the real world is NOT a problem. If you awake in the middle of the night, don't lie there ruminating, DO SOMETHING! I'll turn on the TV and watch tennis and car shows that are piling up in my DVR. I don't care if my gf doesn't like it, I fall asleep while she's watching Dancing with Stars and I don't complain. She puts her earplugs in and her eye-mask on or goes home. Be productive, go weave a basket or do some hunting and gathering.
I used to do marathons and read about a "study" regarding "PRE-RACE INSOMNIA". It said there was NO drop-off in performance due to pre-race insomnia. After reading that I quit worrying about worrying about having pre-race insomnia. This "mandatory" nightly eight hours sleep was invented for the industrial revolution to get everyone to work on time so the assembly line would keep moving--(BTW, don't buy a car manufactured on a Monday or a Friday).
I've been up since 4am, I'm going back to sleep.
Big Yawn!
tt/lsmft
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 08:57:52
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| TT, you are exactly right about economic cycles and we are at the end of a huge credit expansion that will end again in disaster. It is already happening. I find the history of it extremely interesting and am frankly grateful to be able to predict and see the ensuing disaster in my lifetime. Humans do the same things over and over and after the first few generations after a big disaster, never learn anything. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 09:11:09
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quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
TT, you are exactly right about economic cycles and we are at the end of a huge credit expansion that will end again in disaster. It is already happening. I find the history of it extremely interesting and am frankly grateful to be able to predict and see the ensuing disaster in my lifetime. Humans do the same things over and over and after the first few generations after a big disaster, never learn anything.
The problem is that short term fixes are more expedient politically. As henry kissinger so brilliantly said, the future has no constituency. That said i take no pleasure in crises because real people do suffer tremendously. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 09:12:22
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Yes CB, if you don't study history you are bound to repeat it. Market crashes are part of the normal economic cycle. They are only disastrous to those who don't prepare for them--which is probably most everybody. The "smart money" waits for the "dead cat bounce" and buys then.
When the hard times come, the scaliwags who created the problem will head for the hills, or Rio, with their Swiss Bank accounts. They will leave the mess they created for the rest of us to clean up for them. The good news is, our TMS will be in remission because we will be too distracted and busy, hunting and gathering for survival, or if we're lucky, playing Monopoly around the hearth, listening to the radio. |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 09:19:33
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TT, you are right about the sleep issue. I have created way to much anxiety around it. I often feel better when I have not slept much than when I have slept like a log all night. I realize that now and am experiencing much less anxiety around the whole issue. The key is to keep anxiety out of the equation.
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 09:47:03
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I disagree with getting advice regarding any kind of medication on this forum as that should be left to one's own physician who monitors you closely and has your complete medical profile.
I will say here, however, that my physician has found that I have hypothyroidism and I am currently taking levothyroxine (aka synthroid) for this. I have been taking 0.05mg per day but as of today that will increase to a daily dose of 0.075mg, which is the third lowest dose prescribed. For tablets, there are 12 levels of dosage. Hypothyroidism is a condition in which the thyroid gland does not make enough thyroid hormone. I do not want any advice from anyone on this, so don't offer it. |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 03/19/2013 10:09:37 |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 10:10:01
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I don't trust doctors and fortunately for me, I don't need a doctor to get what I want. There are some good ones, but very few.
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 10:21:22
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I also have Hashimoto's thyroiditis (the most common form of hypothyroidism). I also had hyperparathyroidism, fixed now. That can really mess with your mind and body. I have often wondered how much endocrine disorders influence our moods and emotions.
There has been an explosion of this disorder in the last few years. Some attribute it to fluoride in our water. This practice has been banned in many parts of Europe after studies showing a relationship between fluoridated water and endocrine disorders. I suppose it could also be a manifestation of TMS. |
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Medication
