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andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
 Posted - 03/08/2013 : 12:08:13
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Posted by Ace in another thread.
Pspa, despite your findings on your MRI. I'll tell you it's TMS. You may not believe me or be ready for such a statement, but you'll see that no matter what they do to your knee it will never get better with conventional medicine.
Hi Ace,
I would like to politely ask and give some comments about the above statement. Specifically, how do you know what the findings of the MRI are going to be? For instance he may have a meniscus tear or even like my wife a “bucket handle tear”. Her knee was actually locked up and she had to have surgery.
Pspa123 in my opinion should be encouraged to “rule out the physical”. In his own mind and time frame, and I think it an outrageous assumption to state that he will never get better with conventional medicine, and how do you know what is taking place in his mind or body? His mind may be playing tricks.
I have first hand experiences of how the mind can play tricks on you. I once walked on a broken foot for several weeks. Even though my foot swelled up to the size of a football, was colored yellow pink and black I thought it was just a sprain. I was on vacation in Maui and was not going to let this foot spoil my fun! Two weeks later when I visited my doctor for another reason he noticed my limp and insisted on an X-ray. I can’t tell you how shocked and in denial I was to see the live picture with two cracked bones.
Your keys to healing and advice are truly valuable, and your views are given from your many years of experience with patients. There is a possibility that many ailments, anxieties are tied to the TMS syndrome, but we have to “rule out the physical” for each and every movement and symptom of TMS.
Ace, in your own recovery and success story you say you went through a gammit of MRIs and surgeons to get to that point where you say: “No one could explain this to me”. You got to that point when you believed the pain was "unexplained" and thus unimportant. I did the same with my neck issue last February, and was advised by people on this forum to “rule out the physical” with my doctor. Should this not be one of the first keys to healing, an elimination of the fear that we have with our pain?
Respetfully
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Stopped Wiki Edu Program in lieu of own journalling
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years, is almost gone.
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
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All1Spirit
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 13:27:11
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This is where it is easy to become myopic and only see the paradigm that supports a belief. While this allows less cognitive dissonance it is not an open mind and is dangerous.
I once had a patient who was hospitalized with ulcerative colitis and had several surgeries. She was an admitted drug addict (recovered) and when she complained of severe back pain they gave her huge doses of morphine. She over heard one doctor say to a nurse, “give her a push and shut the little complainer up.”
I was the floor medical psychologist and came in to see how she was doing. She was in tears in back pain so I carefully rolled her over and her spine was sticking though her skin at the C- 6, level. This was happening at a west coast prestigious teaching hospital. I called her sister and had her transferred to another hospital where it was found she had a staph infection from her skull to her tail bone – she had a 16 hour surgery and never walked again all because professionals refused to look outside their belief system.
This was because a whole group of doctors could not see past their belief system and they fed off each others belief – medical clones. Look at religious wars fought for hundreds of years over people locked into dogma. Is TMS real – well mind body interactions are very real. But to label a patient as psychogenic without a full workup and second onion is just plain ignorance.....and diagnosing them on a forum criminal!!
TMS people rue that most doctors are still working in the Descarte belief of mind body separation –should we not be more open minded and hold the option that some pain is caused by physical damage and that damage can be in the brain and have no relation to emotions.
Parkinson's used to be thought of as psychogenic until we discovered the Dopamine connection and PK causes severe dystonic muscle pain. Cut into a diabetics foot and you wont see any pathology but the nerves are damaged and the feet hurt.
The sign of creative intelligence is being open to new paradigms and not barricading behind “Group Think” and dogma.
"Around and Around the Circle We Go....
The Answer Sits In The Middle and Knows..." |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 13:58:01
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| Guys no worries and thanks for your interest. I respect a lot of what Ace1 has to say but I am old and wise enough not to let him diagnose me over the internet on the basis of essentially no information, or to let him scare me into thinking that if I do need some conventional intervention either it won't work or I will get a worse illness. I am not moved by a couple of anecdotes; I myself have had conventional procedures before and was just fine afterwards -- and they worked (and I don't want to hear that they were placebos, if anyone wants to believe that that's fine with me). The old saying, to someone with a hammer, everything looks like a nail, comes to mind. Same thought as Rik's about true believers sometimes being too myopic. I am NOT ruling out the possiblity that my knee pain is indeed TMS, as mentioned that was my working assumption for quite some time, although recent events have caused me to want to look further. And I am well-versed enough to be able to reject nocebos if I am not convinced whatever physical findings come up really explain the pain. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I have an orthopedist, a superb one really, who understands all that very well. At this stage of the problem I just need some objective data is all. |
Edited by - pspa123 on 03/08/2013 13:59:18 |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 15:44:18
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When I come here I normally assumed that people have been ill with MB illness for a long time and they have been through with all the needed conventional exams. They have been to doctors, chiro, physical therapy,.... They have run out of option and one day they found this forum while googling as they did thousand of times for more information on their symptoms.
I've been through what they are going through, I have the same symptoms or know of someone who have the same symptoms as they have and are now cured from it. So I just share my thought and my experience, hoping that it will help them.
We are all adults here, it is an annonimous web, take what you think make the most sense for you and hope that it will lead to healing.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 15:53:56
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I chose from the beginning not to be anonymous on this forum, but I fully understand that some people have their own personal reasons for not revealing their identity.
Balto is correct. Most of us have been through the medical establishment and have been subjected to various treatment modalities to no avail, and now we find ourselves here because mainstream medicine has still got its head stuck up Rene Descart's ass with its stubborn separation of the mind and the body and never the twain shall meet. Every symptom that has been mentioned on this forum has been also be discussed in the past and those people who experienced those symptoms also have been through the medical establishment and have been subjected to numerous tests and treatments.
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“Nonresistance, nonjudgment, and nonattachment are the
three aspects of true freedom and enlightened living” -- Ekhart Tolle |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 03/08/2013 16:01:50 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 16:08:36
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| Even people with TMS can get conventional problems too. |
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andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 18:33:35
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Hi folks, I was wondering what Ace would say.
Balto, I don’t get it? You are making assumptions, even if the patient has been through a myriad of doctors and treatment he may still have a real illness or be convinced that he has, just because they are similar to yours doesn’t mean they are. Either way only the person can decide. Balto, you are always referring to “loosing you fear of symptoms”. Is not this the best way, when the doctor can’t explain what is wrong with you by conventional medical wisdom, with all the power from the medical and pharmaceutical industries behind him?
Shawn, not everyone on this forum is as eloquent and as well read as you are about TMS. Not everyone, especially the new people have read past threads or even know of the wonderful search feature we have here. Lia for instance states she hasn’t read a Dr. Sarno book yet, she seems worried and embroiled with her pain just like most new people, is she telling the truth, is she telling us everything we need to know for us to judge: “Yes she has TMS?”
I believe from personal experience that TMS is devious and will try to hold your attention as per Balto’s fear theory, eliminating the fear of pain was what helped me the most with my back recovery in 2000. Dr. Sarno had planted the seed that my pain was benign, and indeed I proved it to be so, but I had to decide for myself with reasoning and personal experience.
I just cringe when I see blatant statements in a one “size fits all fashion”, especially to newcomers or people with new moving symptoms.
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Stopped Wiki Edu Program in lieu of own journalling
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years, is almost gone.
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 18:54:02
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Hi Andy,
In his signature Balto writes, "No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience." The same goes for me. I am merely sharing what I either know or my personal opinion. I am no expert on this complex topic, but I can speak to what I have learned and hope some little thing I say will help someone else. I also know what hurts and what doesn't hurt and I choose the latter. Balto has more legitimacy than me because he has fully recovered and remains on this forum to help others out of their suffering. Others who have recovered have vanished into thin air and we may never see them again, but their presence would be much appreciated for obvious reasons.
I have totally given up trying to convince anyone of anything here. People will ultimately have to come to their own conclusions regarding the source of their symptoms and what it takes to get better regardless of how much they read. But I agree with you, and have stated it several times on this forum, that there is no "one size fits all approach." This is evidenced by the numerous success stories who have applied different approaches, sometimes diametrically opposed to one another, to their recovery.
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“Nonresistance, nonjudgment, and nonattachment are the
three aspects of true freedom and enlightened living” -- Ekhart Tolle |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 19:04:18
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quote:
Originally posted by andy64tms
... Either way only the person can decide.
You are very right Andy, only the person can decide. We here share what we thought would help, but it is your body, your mind, you have to ultimately decide what is best for you. We sometime go to second and third and... to get second opinion when we're dealing with something serious or scary. It doesn't matter what my assumption is, it is your health, your body, you have to decide what is the best treatment for you.
The thing I like the most about the "fear therory" as you called it is: it has no side effect. It can be combine with any other treatment plan or method a patient are currently using, no fear of drug interaction. It can only help and not hurt. Fear is useless and only do harm and intensify our symptoms, physical or mental. It weaken the immune system, it prolong our illness, We need to get rid of it.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 20:28:35
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Hi Andy
I almost glanced over this post. I don't read every post on this forum. My experience has shown me that everyone that I see that has chronic pain seems to have a syndrome that behaves in the manner I felt it, with no logical pattern. For example, I just saw a person with pancreatic cancer bx proven and he has severe pain that moves upper back , side, stomach. When it goes one place it leaves the other completely. I have seen countless similar stories. I know pspa states I say anecdotal reports, this is not true. I see it more than not. I just can't describe every case on this forum. My post to pspa was reasonable, try my keys to healing bar none for 3 months and see if its better. Nothing would be lost, I'm sure the pain was there for much longer. Just the only problem is this illness is sometimes very stubborn and takes a lot of time to fix. Therefore it is hard for me to prove this to someone. I also think the more serious your illness the harder it is to fix. Maybe the only way for pspa to know is through the failure of conventional treatments. Maybe you are the one who is myopic pspa, have you thought that this is a possibility? I don't understand what it is that differentiates in your mind tms or not. What structural change is no big deal, yet which ones are? I don't understand your logic. I hope I'm wrong and you get some lasting relief. I do think one needs to be checked out to see that there is nothing that may need some temporizing medical help like blood clots or early stage cancer that can be resected. Also there are life threatening infections and situations that need medical intervention immediately. However my point is the reason you got there in the first place is bc of tms. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 20:53:30
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Ace1, over the past six weeks, in conjunction with a change in my activity pattern that has caused me to frequently place a great deal of weight on the affected leg and otherwise use the leg in a way I am not used to, my knee has deteriorated from the point where the pain was just a major nuisance to the point where at times I can barely bend it, where it is visibly swollen, where it is torture to walk or even stand for more than a minute or two, where sleep is difficult, and where I am severely limited in my ability to do errands or normal activities. You haven't examined me, you don't know the history, you haven't read my MRI, you have no idea what my doctor has said, and you are not an orthopedist. I always appreciate advice, but don't presume to tell me on the basis of no information other than that I have longstanding pain that you know what it is and that you know there is no conventional treatment so I should just abandon all that and focus on your keys. I don't know if there is or isn't a physical diagnosis that explains things, I am not through with the process yet, but it makes perfect sense to me to pursue it. There is nothing at all myopic about that approach, as I am very open to the POSSIBILITY that it may well be TMS at the end of the day. If I rule out a physical explanation, then that's what it is, so be it. I appreciate your good intentions, but everything is not a nail, Ace1, everything is not a nail.
As Rik said, "But to label a patient as psychogenic without a full workup and second onion is just plain ignorance.....and diagnosing them on a forum criminal!!" I wouldn't go quite that far but I agree with the general sentiment. As Andy said, "I think it an outrageous assumption to state that he will never get better with conventional medicine, and how do you know what is taking place in his mind or body?" I agree with that completely. And just so you know, picking up on something you said previously, you are not anonymous, to me anyhow.
To be clear, I appreciate your knowledge and insight and all the help you give people here, and so do most people here, but this time I think you have overstepped. Had you said to me, tell me more about your situation and let's think together about whether this might be TMS because that's a strong possibility, I would have been very happy to engage in that discussion with you. But your one-size-fits-all I don't need to know the facts, I know better than you even though it's your body approach is a turn off, and obviously others reacted to it as well. I wasn't even going to say anything until Andy started this thread. I am not angry or straining, as you would say, just giving you my genuine reaction. |
Edited by - pspa123 on 03/08/2013 21:18:05 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 21:11:45
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Let me tell you a story, and feel free to take your hammer and debunk it as placebo. Some time ago, I began to develop pain in my other knee. I let it go for quite some time, figuring it was nothing, or that it might be psychosomatic. Eventually it was interfering with my daily activities enough so that I made the decision to get it checked out. I went to a highly credentialed orthopedist who after a one minute exam said I bet you can bike with no pain at all but that it hurts when you walk and hurts even more when you walk on an uneven surface. That described my situation EXACTLY. He said we'll confirm it with an MRI but I can tell you you have a pretty bad meniscus tear in a specific location that he named. Being TMS savvy, I said well you know meniscal tears don't correlate well with pain and he said yes I am very familiar with that study, but sometimes we can correlate them to symptoms, and in your case I think that's what's going on. Skeptical, I had the MRI, and it turned out to be a tear in exactly the location he predicted.
Afteer some hesitation I had the arthroscopic procedure, and after a brief rehab, the pain was gone, and no I didn't get cancer or anything else drastic three months later.
As I said at the outset, feel free to dismiss this little story as placebo, since you know better. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 21:15:42
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| But see that is it that is what is hard to see the genuine reaction for you is a strain. That's why it is so hard for you to see it. I find it hard to see sometimes in myself because it is so habitual. Trust me pspa, it takes me more time to try and help you than to leave you alone. I have no agenda except to help you. Like I said if you don't like what I say, go the route you are planning to go and come back here and tell us you are fixed and feel great. If you never find a solution, you will see that is what millions in this country are experiencing. Once again I never asked you your symptoms etc because I know the basic cause of all chronic pain is tms. I know you had an MRI and you didn't say you needed emergent surgery so I ndidnt need to ask. Come on give me a little more credit than that. To say criminal and react like that I'm sorry is a strain. Don't worry pspa I won't address you or your problem again, I don't really want to contribute to your anger. |
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eric watson
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 21:18:12
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pspa my friend- no need to do aces keys -hes only here to help guys
Rik- pspa dont you guys know this is a go your own way site as long as you take some form of mind body approach
if ace is wrong- the worst that can happen is youll have steel like nerves- guys we all heal here remeber- its a path we make
Rik you choose yours - i chose mine -now we will soon hear of pspas journey and beyond with whatever methood as long as you guys tell us your recovery storys -ok |
Edited by - eric watson on 03/08/2013 21:19:11 |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 21:18:34
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| Just read your second message. This was in the past and now you have pain in the other knee right? That is my point is after surgical intervention something new soon pops up later. Really I see this all the time. Good luck to you I wish you the best. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 21:21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
But see that is it that is what is hard to see the genuine reaction for you is a strain. That's why it is so hard for you to see it. I find it hard to see sometimes in myself because it is so habitual. Trust me pspa, it takes me more time to try and help you than to leave you alone. I have no agenda except to help you. Like I said if you don't like what I say, go the route you are planning to go and come back here and tell us you are fixed and feel great. If you never find a solution, you will see that is what millions in this country are experiencing. Once again I never asked you your symptoms etc because I know the basic cause of all chronic pain is tms. I know you had an MRI and you didn't say you needed emergent surgery so I ndidnt need to ask. Come on give me a little more credit than that. To say criminal and react like that I'm sorry is a strain. Don't worry pspa I won't address you or your problem again, I don't really want to contribute to your anger.
I am not angry at all, actually, merely disagreeing with your approach and with your presumptiveness. As we have discussed before, that is a cheap and patronizing tactic to dismiss anyone disagreeing with your approach as angry. Surely we can have an adult discussion, no? |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 21:22:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
Just read your second message. This was in the past and now you have pain in the other knee right? That is my point is after surgical intervention something new soon pops up later. Really I see this all the time. Good luck to you I wish you the best.
New stuff pops up for people who don't have surgery too, it's called life. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 21:27:25
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| No really I'm not trying to patronize you I really feel you are getting really hyped up in your response. Go back and read it and tell me if you think you post sounds like a calm reasonable logical argument or not. If I'm wrong please someone else chime in and tell me if I am reading your post totally wrong. I truly feel possibly from conditioning from your training as a lawyer you take your stance to intensely |
Edited by - Ace1 on 03/08/2013 21:31:37 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 21:27:25
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quote:
Originally posted by eric watson
pspa my friend- no need to do aces keys -hes only here to help guys
Rik- pspa dont you guys know this is a go your own way site as long as you take some form of mind body approach
if ace is wrong- the worst that can happen is youll have steel like nerves- guys we all heal here remeber- its a path we make
Rik you choose yours - i chose mine -now we will soon hear of pspas journey and beyond with whatever methood as long as you guys tell us your recovery storys -ok
Hi Eric, actually while I don't do all Ace1's 26 keys literally I have incorporated quite a few of the principles set out there which are of course similar to what is said in a lot of the mindfulness literature. I have found it helpful for sure, but not enough, so far. I may be one of those folks who needs the depth psychotherapy. |
Edited by - pspa123 on 03/08/2013 21:34:51 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 21:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
No really I'm not trying to patronize you I really feel you are getting really hyped up in your response. Go back and read it and tell me if you think you post sounds like a calm reasonable logical argument or not. If I'm wrong please someone else chime in and tell me if I am reading your post totally wrong. I truly feel possibly from conditioning from your training as a lawyer you take your stance to intensely.
I would say my response to you was certainly pointed because I definitely feel as do others you are overstepping your bounds regardless of your good intentions which I don't question, but I don't feel stressed or angry about it. My wife is about the only one who can press my buttons these days haha. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 21:34:25
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| How is offering my opinion overstepping my bounds. You can take it or leave it. Like chiropractic care. Take it or leave it. |
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RULE OUT THE PHYSICAL
