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Sylvia
199 Posts |
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Dr James Alexander
Australia
127 Posts |
 Posted - 02/06/2013 : 04:03:00
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Sylvia- the stats quoted demonstrate that the intervention used (the affective self awareness intervention) was found to be effective in reducing the levels of pain and disability when compared to the control group who received no intervention (they were just on a waiting list). There is always the prospect that such a result could be just from random luck or chance- in order to eliminate this possibility, they do the statistical analysis, which results on the outcomes being reported with things like (p<o.oo1). While no one can say with absolute certainty that the result were achieved because of the intervention used, they can say things like 'we are 99% confident that the results were not obtained because of just random chance'. The p<0.001 is a reference to the probability that the results were obtained because there really is a difference between being on a waiting list and receiving the good treatment. It is called a 'significance level', and a significance level like this can allow you to be very confident that the differences in the outcomes were achieved, not because of chance, but because of a quality of the intervention treatment. These results achieve statistical significance, which is impressive to researchers- it puts them beyond mere chance or random luck. Hope this helps.
James |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 05:13:42
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Hi Sylvia,
The study is basically Schubiners method under the clinical spotlight. There were two groups of fibro sufferers: one group followed Schubiners programme, the other group didn't. The group that did the programme reported less pain and better physical function at the end of it compared to the group who did nothing.
"This is the first randomized, controlled study to demonstrate the benefits of a primarily affectively oriented group intervention for fibromyalgia. We found that a relatively short-duration but intensive intervention (i.e., one individual session and three group sessions over 4 weeks) yielded substantial benefits within 6 weeks, and these benefits were maintained at the 6-month endpoint. It is noteworthy that long-term benefits were observed not only in subjective pain, but also in pressure pain threshold and physical functioning. Improvements in both pain and physical function at 6 months or beyond, using intent-to-treat analyses, have thus far been shown in only a handful of interventions for fibromyalgia."
The results lasted.
I rendered a key line in bold for clarification.
Regarding fatigue, (ASA = affective self-awareness, they're the ones who followed Schubiners programme);
"The ASA group had less fatigue at post-treatment than the control group, but this difference was not observed at 6 months.
So they did well initially but it didn't hold long term. To be fair though the paper doesn't focus on fatigue so I wouldn't read too much into it.
Does that help? |
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Sylvia
199 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 05:17:53
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Thank you Dr. James! So these numbers mean scientifically how proven the results are. These numbers don't mean that this level of pain or fatigue became this level of pain or fatigue?
Plum I'm not sure if they didn't bother gathering information on the fatigue at 6 months or it means that the fatigue snapped back. Shiit I hope not! Stoopid fatigue.
BPI-pain interference (0–10)
Baseline 6.45 (1.62) 5.37 (2.52) 1.7 0.09
Post treatment 4.24 (3.09) 4.68 (2.75) 2.8 0.10
6-month post randomization 4.29 (2.56) 5.51 (2.54) 7.4 0.009
BPI–painful body regions (0–29)
Baseline 19.6 (5.71) 17.6 (6.22) 1.1 0.27
Post treatment 10.3 (7.50) 16.9 (7.98) 15.1 <0.001
6-month post randomization 11.2 (5.81) 17.1 (7.42) 12.5 0.001
Tender-point threshold, kg a
Baseline 2.43 (0.65) 2.81 (0.66) 2.0 0.06
6-month post randomization 3.04 (0.86) 2.66 (0.78) 6.0 0.02
MFI–general fatigue (4–20)
Baseline 17.5 (2.48) 15.7 (3.13) 2.2 0.03
Post treatment 14.3 (4.14) 15.8 (2.62) 6.9 0.01
6-month post randomization 16.2 (3.17) 16.1 (3.73) 0.4 0.54
SF-36 PCS (US mean 50, SD 10)a
Baseline 27.0 (6.68) 33.5 (7.94) 2.9 0.005
Post treatment 39.3 (10.0) 32.8 (8.74) 24.3 <0.001
6-month post randomization 36.4 (9.58) 33.9 (8.41) 15.2 <0.001
SF-36 MCS (US mean 50, SD 10)a
Baseline 38.7 (11.3) 41.3 (12.1) 0.7 0.47
Post treatment 41.6 (14.6) 40.9 (11.3) 0.6 0.43
6-month post randomization 39.4 (14.2) 43.3 (11.4) 0.5 0.49
MOS Sleep Scale–SPI2 (0–100)
Baseline 48.4 (10.5) 41.8 (10.8) 2.1 0.045
Post treatment 42.5 (20.8) 47.9 (18.8) 3.1 0.08
6-month post randomization 51.6 (18.3) 49.2 (19.5) 0.2 0.67
BPCQ–powerful others (4–24)
Baseline 9.42 (2.52) 11.1 (3.55) 1.9 0.072
Post treatment 7.38 (3.49) 11.1 (4.06) 6.9 0.01
6-month post randomization 7.25 (2.82) 11.6 (3.33) 17.6 <0.001 |
Edited by - Sylvia on 02/06/2013 05:19:21 |
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Sylvia
199 Posts |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 05:28:30
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| I have Dr. Schubiner's book. Like many other people who have likewise stated on this message forum, I did not find it very helpful at all. But perhaps there are others who will find his book helpful so don't follow the opinion of a few people. |
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Sylvia
199 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 05:40:58
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
I have Dr. Schubiner's book. Like many other people who have likewise stated on this message forum, I did not find it very helpful at all. But perhaps there are others who will find his book helpful so don't follow the opinion of a few people.
I remember reading what you wrote. But these people used his materials and DID. Maybe his updated book/cd is nicely tweaked.
I ordered the book, I didn't want to spend the money but I did anyways because there is his whole intervention that he used in the study.
I'll do it. This comes just as I was going to leave the forum and do my own pieced together intervention. Now I will do all Schubiner. Why not eh?
A real study of the most severe TMS, oh he calls it MBS? Anyways Dr. Sarno has gotta be proud. National Institute of Health? That is big. |
Edited by - Sylvia on 02/06/2013 05:42:41 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 05:45:17
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Sorry Sylvia, can't help with Dr. Schubiner, been too busy playing the January tournaments down in the desert and now catching up with work. Never read his book, half way through SteveO's and just received Nicole's. Maybe give him a call and see if you can get him to do a cameo here.
G'luck!
tt/lsmft |
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Sylvia
199 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 05:46:23
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That is wierd Dr. Schubiner isn't listed on the TMShelp
Booklist
or
Links.
Is there something I don't know? |
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Sylvia
199 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 05:48:57
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
Sorry Sylvia, can't help with Dr. Schubiner, been too busy playing the January tournaments down in the desert and now catching up with work. Never read his book, half way through SteveO's and just received Nicole's. Maybe give him a call and see if you can get him to do a cameo here.
G'luck!
tt/lsmft
Ha! You read that before I went back in to edit it out. I did just email him and ask if he could come around.
Swing away Tom! |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 05:58:35
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PARTICIPANTS AND METHODS Forty-five women with fibromyalgia were randomized to a manualized ASA intervention (n = 24) or wait-list control (n = 21). The intervention began with a one-time physician consultation, followed by 3 weekly, 2-h group sessions based upon a mind-body model of pain. Sessions focused on structured written emotional disclosure and emotional awareness exercises. Outcomes in both conditions were measured by a blinded assessor at baseline, post-intervention, and 6-month follow-up.
Sylvia,
It's worth noting that group sessions were part of the process. Schubiner does offer an online programme too so may be worth exploring that option. I did work through his book a couple of years ago. It's structured well and offers a blend of directed journaling and deconditioning. It didn't do it for me but I think my problem circles more around fear and intensity and only I can change that.
I wish you well love.
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 07:54:00
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| Sylvia, I read his book (first edition) and it was not good in my opinion. It did not contribute to my healing one bit. I think he is a great, kind hearted man and is geniuenly trying to help others. I have to give my truthful opinion however. I think Shawn is right. I think his book gives no more info than Dr. Sarno's books (from which all the important ideas where taken from) and it trys to philosophize on the physiology of TMS that is somewhat different from Dr. Sarno. He also adds some mindfulness techniques with a lot of blank pages to journal. I just summarized it for you. I think the good reviews are from people who got better just the same if they had seen Dr. Sarno in his office when he was still practicing. As you can see on what you have cut and paste from the study, none of the patients in the study were cured, they just felt somewhat better. My suggestion is to not continue to search for more and more reading, it hypes you up more. Good luck to you. |
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Sylvia
199 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 08:36:10
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| Oh my gosh Ace and Shawn you two have totally bummed me out... |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 08:52:35
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| Why Sylvia, you have all the info you need to heal in my keys. You just need to be patient with the healing process. There is no magic bullet. Plum says it right by saying she is the only one who can do the work. |
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Sylvia
199 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 09:05:15
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But Ace your keys aren't proven. I believe in them, and I was going to do them/am doing them. Yet following that link to book from the shrinks of DR. Sarno, they mentioned the NIH study with Dr. Schubiner. So looking into that made it seem a sure deal because I DO have the severe form of TMS and here he had a program for it.
If it IS as you say in the materials I receive then yeah, I'll feel a little disappointed if it is nothing new. Yet, he has patients on his website that have healed, and maybe just maybe Sarno was most successful because of that group support that Nicole was in.
I keep asking for a FM/CFS person who cured themself. SteveO was gonna hook me up with a Fibro gal but still hasn't. So maybe for me it is very important. Not like I'm asking the impossible. I want to get hooked up with those whose lives were interrupted for many years with severe FM/CFS.
It just isn't good enough for me, Dr. Sarno says so. Ace says so. I want the proof. |
Edited by - Sylvia on 02/06/2013 09:07:53 |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 09:07:17
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| But the study doesnt show cured people, just ones with somewhat better pain scores. Is this good enough for you? |
Edited by - Ace1 on 02/06/2013 09:07:41 |
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Sylvia
199 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 09:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace1
But the study doesnt show cured people, just ones with somewhat better pain scores. Is this good enough for you?
Is that what those numbers mean? Somewhat better pain scores? Sigh.
ps you are coming off to me as testy |
Edited by - Sylvia on 02/06/2013 09:09:58 |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 09:22:51
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| No way, just debating, thats the way I debate |
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All1Spirit
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 09:46:31
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In my experience academic medical studies are of limited value – too easy to skew results and they don’t take into account what is happening in the real world. Like I was told in school – you want to know what the books say ask a doctor – want to know what is really going on ask a nurse.
Most of the adverse drug reports don’t come first from the FDA – they are seen on patient groups on line.
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All1Spirit
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 09:48:03
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| Us scientists like to mentally masturbate while the answer sits in the middle and laughs!! |
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jegol71
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 17:14:05
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One of the highest compliments I can pay Howard is this:
He is Balto, the frequent poster on here, if Balto had an MD and lived in Detroit.
Having seen the efforts that have gone into Howard's research (the contributing authors are esteemed as some of the most renowned fibromyalgia researchers in the country), and knowing many people who do not frequent this board who have been TRANSFORMED by his contributions to psychosomatic medicine, I can't let his name sink into the murk. The fact that his research shows degrees of pain perception shifting should confirm that this is a real-world study, and not a platform of self-sifting mind-body absolutism that claims cures.
Howard speaks of lowering strain, recognizing that we are strained, and doing everything else that has been written by every TMS expert since the Cretacious. What this proves is that TMS has its etiology in the mindbody, and its cure in language.
Howard, like everyone, is the sum of conversations he's had in his life with himself and others. He has studied meditation, so he talks about it. Others have not, so they do not. All the warring over approaches is just another symptom for the group to suffer.
If you have any questions about Howard or his program, feel free to send me an email, heaven forbid his name get trampled over anymore.
Again, please contact me about Howard's program through email, as I do not check this site much.
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Dr. Schubiner did a Fibro study N.I.H.
