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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2004 : 11:02:10
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It is funny when the heat is taken off of you, how you can sit back and see how much we can be in agreement, without getting attacked if one statement is mentioned that differs from other views.
One thing that I have learned, we must be opened to others ideas to be able to learn new things. And what one might believe to be “truth” for one’s circumstances, might not apply to all. Especially when it comes to conditioning and programming on an individual basis. But with that said, if we try to grab various pieces from many practices and theories and form our own religion to a TMS theory, well that might work for us for a while. Or we will go so far with recovery, but it will not answer the underlying source of our inner rage. IMO there is in all recovery an absolute truth and reason that gives answer to our current condition. And the more we are open-minded to explore this, we will rule out all of its triggers, the closer we come to discovering that “TRUTH”.
“Wow” I must praise on such well-rounded comments and show some of the points that I am in agreement with, because in the past I was not able to do this. Never mind trying to suggest another component to TMS, such as MIND/BODY/ SPIRIT connection. quote:
It was always a place for discussion and, yes, argument on topics related to TMS. That also involved people helping people, which was good, but that was not all the board was about.
I derived a great deal of benefit from Sarno's books, which I have read many times. I do not accept every detail of his theory, but I think that, in general, he is right that much back, butt and leg pain is psychogenic. Some people's pain is 100% psychogenic and others have pain that is partly psychogenic. There are also other causes for back, butt and leg pain, bad habits in the way we use our bodies being paramount.
And that is another reason I posted this information. Too many people who post here do seem to be open to just about any kind of fool notion that comes down the pike, whether or not there is any evidence for it.
So, my evidence was purely personal. But if I tell it to you, it is just testimonial, and not worth much. You have to read the books for yourself and try out doing the psychological work. If it works for you, then you will know it soon. You may be one of those people whose pain is 100% psychogenic. If so, then your recovery, using just Sarno's methods, could be dramatic.
On the other hand, you could be more like me. I got a lot of benefit from Sarno but I also got a lot from, first, stopping some very bad home-brewed stretching exercises I was doing, laying off my running for awhile until I healed, learning to relax the muscles around my pelvic area, and, eventually, changing my posture -- the way I sit, stand and walk. All of those, I think, had a part in my recovery.
You see, I think not only of people out there who don't know about TMS and continue to suffer because they don't know about it. I think also of those who don't know about learning to relax their muscles, about getting out of bad habits There are those people, too, and they are hoping for relief from using the Sarno methods only. But maybe they are neglecting some other thing that they desperately need to know about.
I fear for this country, one reason being that the schools no longer teach anyone how to think; they are only interested in teaching them what to think, i.e., political progaganda. In fact, any student who knows how to think and practices it -- meaning putting ideas, logically, to the test -- does not usually get along very well with the teachers and administrators.
These particular statements I must disagree with and bear to differ on opinions
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Let me tell you something: The way I see it, rational people are my kin. I will go all out to help them. But the enemies of rational thought usually put themselves into the position of being my enemy. (Intellectual enemy only, of course, in the context of an internet message board.)
So, if you notice that I talk to my "kin" here (few though they may be) differently than I talk to those who appear to me to oppose rational discourse, well, that is why. BTW, my kin do not always agree with me. Agreement is not the salient point. An attempt at rational thought is.
I don't think you are really "concerned", either. Hey, why don't you just argue the philosophical points here instead of turning everything into a passive-aggressive personal attack on me?
I do this primarily for entertainment. Writing argumentation like this is fun for me. And it provides exercise for my mind.
JJV’s illustrations of how connections were made
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I fall more into austingary's camp of thinking. For some people, back pain is completely psychogenic, and for others, it is simply a component of the pain.! I'm willing to bet that someone with heaps of repressed rage will heal much slower than someone who is in a "healthier" emotional place.
Following Sarno's mind/body work helped my back pain quite a bitand even kept an emotional journal via Schechter's MindBody Workbook. I did this for over a year, with a cult-like adherance to Sarno's principles. However, the relief was inadequate. Pain still ruled my life and I spent countless moments of the day doing battle with my unconscious mind. If there is any group that understands how exhausting that is, it's you guys!
Well, several months ago I decided that "there has to be a better way" and I OPENED MY MIND to the possibility that there COULD BE a physical component to my back pain as well. And guess what? I found it.
Now if I make sure to be mindful of my resevior of rage AND keep an eye on this physical component, I'm almost 100% pain free. If I slack off on either end, it's a recipe for pain. So, for me, it's not just one or the other.
I refrained from "focusing on the physical",
Now if I make sure to be mindful of my resevior of rage AND keep an eye on this physical component
I must agree that these 2 statements are very important for the order of recovery. But I would say if we continue to use only maintenance in the physical aspect and rely on what we do physically, it will not bring about complete recovery until we address the emotional component such as anger, rage and fear.
I have also followed Sarno’s mind/body work with great gain in pain reduction, but I did NOTHING PHYSICAL (outside of normal activity) for over 5 months and it was during the Journaling process I discovered the spiritual component to the MIND/BODY connection. It was during my journaling process that I believe I broke the cycle, making many discoveries about why I had a TMS condition and made peace with my past, which brought me to a 99.9% recovery. Then it became a mater of fine tuning some old conditioned habits, while keeping the reseviour or anger and fear empty. It has no been over 8 months since starting the work of TMS, and I haven’t implemented one physical exercise program at this point. This was done only to prove to myself of how the TMS process works. My pain was not caused from a structural abnormality nor a physical condition, however the way I lived my daily life always stressed and angered keeping my body tight and continually rigid.
Therefore I was not going to do anything physical to combat it until all the TMS pain was gone Now I am feeling better than ever and ready to include a healthy exercise program to my life.
I am also into the camp of Gary’s thinking but we just camp on different sites don’t visit one another much.
We use some of the same tools and equipment of how we camp, but we wake up each morning with a different outlook. I like an in your face, say it like it is, straightforward approach type guy. I also like the way Gary is direct and says we need to take responsibility for ourselves, but I have noticed not much in all of his TMS comments and approaches, even mention about the emotional component. I am interested to hear his view about how one is to maintenance this part of the syndrome and address the emotional needs of recovery. Maybe he can elaborate on this part, completing his TMS syndrome recovery theory.
Always Hope For Recovery
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 11:06:16
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| Why do most other people in sedentary occupations not have pain at night when sleeping? Why would you be any different? Do you feel that you have some basic structural weakness? Your problem could also be associated with Sarno's ideas regarding conditioning. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 11:22:46
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Kenny: I have noticed not much in all of his TMS comments and approaches, even mention about the emotional component. I am interested to hear his view about how one is to maintenance this part of the syndrome and address the emotional needs of recovery. Maybe he can elaborate on this part, completing his TMS syndrome recovery theory.
TMS theory is based on emotions. A physical reaction (or defense, whatever) to unconscious rage, an emotion. The purpose of the anti-TMS work is to deal with this. That's just part of the premise behind all these discussions here. What else needs to be said about it? |
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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 13:09:36
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Gary,
You did not answer how you worked on your emotional side in dealing with TMS strategies, and what have you discovered.
It seems you have made a physical connection, and yes you have will power and are disciplined in your self in many ways, but never mentioning anything of how to address the emotional side, dealing with anger, repressed emotions, pain fear ect. In the past you talk about dealing with anger with yelling, hitting beds with whiffle ball bats and the like.
Nothing mentioned about the conscious (Your innerman thoughts and feelings)
You also mention relaxing muscles, like peeling an onion skin back layer by layer, which is a good approach, but never any emotional work is ever included.
What’s your take on the emotional side of TMS
Always Hope For Recovery
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JayP
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 13:51:21
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JJV,
I, too, spend a lot of time on a computer...about 9 hours per day. When I had my last bout of spasms, I was told that my psoas muscle(s) are very tight. I've also been told them I'm very "tense"... especially when I go for massages. I believe I have TMS and I'm dealing with the emotional part of it, but I also believe that because of stress, I tend to tense up my muscles. I think these 2 components go hand and hand. My most important question to you is: How do you relax them?
Thanks,
JayP |
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Sadiesue
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 17:34:55
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| The psoas muscles are often deeply linked to emotions. You might try doing the constructive rest position to help release those muscles while thinking about emotional issues. You could just do an internet search for "constructive rest position" and there will be a lot of information on it like: http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Bodywork/koch65.htm |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 21:49:44
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Kenny: You did not answer how you worked on your emotional side in dealing with TMS strategies, and what have you discovered.
For one thing, that's not what this topic was about, although it has drifted well off the subject of my original post. For another, the "emotional side" is what most of the discussion on this board has been about over the past 3 years. I have nothing new or unique to add.
As for my "innerman thoughts and feelings", I'll continue to keep most of those to myself, which is where they belong. |
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JayP
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 07:16:45
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| Thanks for the info, Sadiesue. I'll see if this works, but again, we all need to remember why we tighten our muscles in the first place! While this may provide me with some temporary relief, I know I still need to continue my TMS work. Thanks. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 10:26:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Sadiesue
The psoas muscles are often deeply linked to emotions. You might try doing the constructive rest position to help release those muscles while thinking about emotional issues. You could just do an internet search for "constructive rest position" and there will be a lot of information on it like: http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Bodywork/koch65.htm
Dear Sadiesue,
Thanks for the link to that site. I've been trying to find _The Psoas Book_ since it was first mentioned on this board quite a while back, by Whilf, I believe. The author is home-based in my NORCAL area and I might do one of her workshops someday, (not to heal my TMS of course, just for imformation and soothintg, wink, wink). I think I did a "real" injury to it while overstretching (for me) in a yoga class (supta virasna pose) years ago. It coincided with an extremely emotional relationship breakup. I think my unconscious was hoping an injury would elicit sympathy from my ex--IT DIDN'T. With the help of alcohol, she just layed into me more, sensing the injured pray and coming in for the kill. I think the injury settled into chronic TMS. I've been curious about the psoas ever since I heard that it "interdigitates" with the diaphragm, (diaphragm-breathing-lack of oxygen = TMS). Also its connection to the fight/flight response, (fear the volume control for pain}.
The constuctive rest exercise demonstrated in the article, puting the legs up on a chair, is one that I did at Pete Egoscue's clinic at Del Mar, Ca. I recommend it as a relief for accute lower back pain. I call it the "putting your feet up" position. Even Egoscue's physical therapists would do it, as a time out for themselves,
between clients. Nothing to prevent one from thinking about TMS while doing the "exercise".
Thanks,
tt |
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Sarah Jacoba
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 01:05:24
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I have found time and time again, in line I think with Gary's comments, that people are very easily offended, particularly over the internet, by a good brisk argument. Constantly people think in emails, for example, that I'm heated because I enjoy debate and want to weigh points rationally, or because I enjoy being precise in how I tackle an issue. I think it is a regrettable cultural shift that would be nonsensical to a well educated person from the late 1800s. People who are into "tolerance" are particularly guilty of this kind of intolerance of disagreement and rational argument. Rather funny.
And by the way, I say this despite being fairly liberal politically and socially.
If I too am guilty of getting "stirred up" I guess it's because I inherited from my dad a great love of "getting things right on."
--Sarah
"When dream and day unite" |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 07:49:26
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Sarah: Constantly people think in emails, for example, that I'm heated because I enjoy debate and want to weigh points rationally, or because I enjoy being precise in how I tackle an issue. I think it is a regrettable cultural shift that would be nonsensical to a well educated person from the late 1800s.
Absolutely. I think it would be very beneficial if more young students took Debate, in which I participated at the Jr. High School level. As you no doubt know, in formal debate, you prepare two arguments for your assigned issue, a pro and a con. Then you debate each side.
You probably have a personal opinion about the issue, maybe a strong one, but in the debates, you put that aside and give your best to whichever side you are taking. One of the important things you take away from the process is to separate your view of the the argument from your view of the person delivering it. |
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n/a
374 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 01:58:24
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I agree. Debating skills need to be taught and the emphasis these days, in the UK anyway, is all on reaching targets - passing tests and having written 'evidence' that a student has mastered every single thing that has been taught.
Teachers are bogged down in useless paperwork and don't have the time to devote to something that needs lots of thought and discussion - such as debating skills - so important, in my opinion in forming an open mind.
I often asked the children that I taught, aged eleven/twelve, to give their opinion on a topic, such as, 'Should participation in school sport be compulsory?' In their preparation, I taught them to plan this way:-
1. Introduce your topic
2. Give reasons for compulsory sports
3. Give reasons agains't compulsory sport
4. Say where you stand
Most children came to enjoy putting across an argument in an objective way, both verbally and in writing and some of them became very good at it.
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JJV
3 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 20:32:00
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quote:
Originally posted by JayP
JJV,
IMy most important question to you is: How do you relax them?
Thanks,
JayP
Even more so than the constructive rest position featured in The Psoas Book, I find more success relaxing the psoas using a somatics coordination exercise:
http://www.somatics.com/back_pain.htm
It has helped me a lot in terms of breaking the cycle of adverse "conditioning" as well.
I bought the book too, but I think the other somatic techniques are too difficult to follow without hands-on instruction.
When my psoas is tensed up, I can't even lift my leg off the floor on the first attempt. Usually by the sixth or seventh attempt of the somatic coordination exercise, my psoas relaxes to the point where I can lift the leg half a foot or more without any effort. It's amazing. |
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Intelligent people ask: Is the evidence any good?
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