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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
 Posted - 06/28/2004 : 08:10:00
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Intelligent, rational people, when presented with a claim, evaluate the nature of the evidence. Evidence falls into four categories: testimonial, argumentative, correlational, and experimental. When we read books, articles and most of all, web postings, we should be aware of the category of the evidence being presented. (Credit is due to the late Dr. Roy Walford for spelling out so clearly these categories of evidence in his writing.)
1. Testimonial Evidence. Also known as "anecdotal" evidence. He or she said this or that. This is the worst kind of evidence; to a scientist, it is nearly worthless. There is testimonial evidence available for just about every conceivable claim, including ghosts, demons, black magic, UFO landings, elves and goblins. If you are open to accepting testimonial evidence, you are open to believing just about anything.
2. Argumentative Evidence. Logical arguments that "make a case" for a claim. Facts are gathered and logical arguments are presented to show that, leading from those facts, such-and-such ought to be so. In reality, though, what seems perfectly logical does not always work out in real life. It is just too easy for some of the facts, premises and logic to be wrong and that is often the case.
3. Correlational Evidence. One of only two types of evidence that scientists take seriously. When two or more things happen together (correlate) there may be a causal relationship between them, or, perhaps, both are caused by some third agent acting on them.
But correlations, while they suggest further investigation and sometimes prove out in the long run, are often deceptive.
My favorite example: Right about the time baseball spring training gets started, you begin to see cockroaches. They are around all during the baseball season but then as soon as the World Series is over, they disappear. Conclusion: roaches love baseball. Obvious, isn't it? Just look at the correlational evidence.
4. Experimental Evidence. This is the only kind of evidence that can be regarded as "proof" of any claim. Experiments are done repeatedly under controlled conditions and the same result always occurs. Someone else does the same experiment in another location and gets the same results. Well done experiments establish cause and effect relationships.
Of course, even when experiments establish "proof" of something, that proof must be evaluated. What you have learned does not always mean, in a wider context, what you might think it does.
Interpreting and evaluating evidence is difficult and takes training and experience. But simply understanding the category of the evidence being presented is something every intelligent person can and should do.
The most common category of evidence used in advertising is testimonial, which is practically worthless. (Making it even worse, most of the "testifiers" in advertising are actors!) Medical claims are typically full of testimonials, apparently logical arguments and purported correlations, but light on data from good scientific experiments. Hence, they should be taken with a grain of salt.
Extraordinary claims, in particular, demand extraordinary proof. |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 08:09:18
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| I have one question for you. Do you believe the tms theory? It seems for your posts that you always have something to say about what we are doing here. We are all here to learn more about tms and ourselves so we can get rid of this pain. Yes testimonials can be deceiving, but there has been too many people out there that have been helped by Sarno. If you do not accept the tms theory Gary then you are posting on the wrong board. |
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goodguy
26 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 08:44:44
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2Scoops: I agree with you 100%. Most of us on this board don't claim to be medical or scientific experts. However, most of us share somethings in common. We are suffering terribly, and we have not received any help from either traditional or alternative medicine.
We do not come to this board to debate the details of Dr. Sarno's theory. We are here because we know that he has helped thousands, and we hope that he can help us too. Speaking for myself, all I want is to get out of pain so I can get on with my life. I come here for support from people who feel like I do, and to keep me going when, in an episode of agony, I stray from the path I have chosen. I really don't care if I get better through a placebo effect or not. I just want to be out of pain.
If I wanted to debate the various approaches to the treatment of back pain, there are plenty of other places I could go. I do not really care muck about pain, and as soon as I am pain free, I don't think I will be spending a lot of time on this board, unless I have some information that I feel could help others.
However, 2scoops, I think the best way to get rid of people who don't share our common purpose for being here is to ignore them. Maybe they will go away and start their own board. |
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n/a
374 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 11:35:34
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Are you saying that the TMS theory should be evaluated by the use of experimental evidence? If that is the case, how could it be done?
Much of what we post here, when we report, as I have done often, sustained improvements in a physical condition, is testimonial evidence. If it is almost worthless, are you saying that I am wasting my time? Actually, you can't be saying that because you started this site and your posts have been a great help to many of us who post here.
I believe that the improvements in my condition have been brought about by an understanding that my back pain was caused by underlying emotional causes. I don't see how that can be proved though.
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 13:06:57
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2scoops: If you do not accept the tms theory Gary then you are posting on the wrong board.
You may not know this, but I started this board, 2 years ago and recently gave it away to Dave. So, your suggesting that I should not post here is kind of funny.
I derived a great deal of benefit from Sarno's books, which I have read many times. I do not accept every detail of his theory, but I think that, in general, he is right that much back, butt and leg pain is psychogenic. Some people's pain is 100% psychogenic and others have pain that is partly psychogenic. There are also other causes for back, butt and leg pain, bad habits in the way we use our bodies being paramount. I agree with Sarno that "structural" problems, i.e., bones out of place, are not usually the actual cause of chronic pain.
But bottom line, 2scoops, is that if you do not like my point of view or what I post, you do not have to read my posts. But I will continue to post here until and unless Dave throws me off or I grow tired of it. Your opinion of me or my ideas is inconsequential.
AnneG: Are you saying that the TMS theory should be evaluated by the use of experimental evidence? If that is the case, how could it be done?
Anne, I am not saying this, I am just reporting it. This is the way scientists look at evidence. People bitch about why science does not give Dr. Sarno what they believe is his due. Well, this is why they don't, because the evidence he presents is mostly testimonial, as I understand it.
As for testimonial evidence, I never give it much credence. As Dr. Walford said, and I repeated in my post, if you give credence to testimonial evidence, you are open to believing just about anything.
And that is another reason I posted this information. Too many people who post here do seem to be open to just about any kind of fool notion that comes down the pike, whether or not there is any evidence for it.
When I read Dr. Sarno's books, while I did not give much credence to the testimonials he reports, and noted that there did not seem to be any really good evidence for his claims, what he said rang a bell with me personally. And just reading the introduction to MindBody Prescription made me 25% better. Was this "placebo effect"? Maybe so, especially if you believe as I do that there is probably no difference between placebo effect and other kinds of psychogenic cures. Some things can be cured by changing the way you think. That's what Sarno suggests. We can argue about how that works or in how many cases it works if we want, but it does work in some cases, including mine.
So, my evidence was purely personal. But if I tell it to you, it is just testimonial, and not worth much. You have to read the books for yourself and try out doing the psychological work. If it works for you, then you will know it soon. You may be one of those people whose pain is 100% psychogenic. If so, then your recovery, using just Sarno's methods, could be dramatic.
On the other hand, you could be more like me. I got a lot of benefit from Sarno but I also got a lot from, first, stopping some very bad home-brewed stretching exercises I was doing, laying off my running for awhile until I healed, learning to relax the muscles around my pelvic area, and, eventually, changing my posture -- the way I sit, stand and walk. All of those, I think, had a part in my recovery.
You see, I think not only of people out there who don't know about TMS and continue to suffer because they don't know about it. I think also of those who don't know about learning to relax their muscles, about getting out of bad habits they have been doing for years, or maybe they don't know that chairs and cars should have lumbar support! There are those people, too, and they are hoping for relief from using the Sarno methods only. But maybe they are neglecting some other thing that they desperately need to know about.
Someone recently posted here that one of my messages about how I learned to relax my pelvic muscles caused her to do the same thing and she got immediate pain relief! So, I feel more than justified in giving people some alternative areas of investigation, along with their anti-TMS work, areas of investigation that paid off mightily for me.
Yes, I do think that controlled experiments could be devised that would come nearer to "proving" whether Sarno's methods work as he says they do (we know they work in some way, for at least some people) or not. Somewhere else on this forum I posted something about that. But, in short, you would have to set up, I suppose, 3 groups of pain sufferers, one of which went to Sarno, another of which went to similar diagnosis & seminar sessions but they talked about something completely different, and a third control group that just went about their business. Then you would see how each did. If Dr.Sarno has ever volunteered to initiate or take part in such an experiement, I have not heard anything about it.
In fact, Dr. Sarno makes his own case worse, among scientists, by weeding out all the patients except those who tell him, prior to the first visit, that they are ready to believe what he has to say.
Imagine if someone who claimed to speak to the dead weeded out all her clients by asking them if they truly believed that people could speak to the dead. Using those she selected this way, she held sceances, then expressed extreme unhappiness that scientists wouldn't take seriously her statistics on how many people actually spoke to their dead relatives! That is pretty much analogous to what Dr. Sarno is doing.
Goodguy, what I said to 2scoops goes for you, too. I am not going to alter what I post based on why you "come here" or what you, personally, want in a message board. That is your business and you should stick to the topics that interest you and you think you profit from and assiduously avoid the others. If you don't like my approach then, by all means, stay away from it.
Finally, just so you get my perspective, of these 3 replies, only one, from AnneG, sounds to me as though it comes from a rational person. The other two people may well be intelligent but their methods of thinking seem alien to mine. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 14:51:50
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One other thing. This board is Dave's baby now; you would have to ask him what he thinks it is and where he thinks it is going. But when it was my board, I never, ever thought of it as being a "support" group where people get together to trade positive affirmations. It was always a place for discussion and, yes, argument on topics related to TMS. That also involved people helping people, which was good, but that was not all the board was about.
We have had chiropractors, medical doctors and other medical and quasi-medical practitioners post here, people who were 100% opposed to everything Dr. Sarno stands for. They were not thrown off the board because they were not "positive" enough or didn't believe correctly enough; they were answered, questioned, contradicted -- which they were not used to, and they went away.
I fear for this country, one reason being that the schools no longer teach anyone how to think; they are only interested in teaching them what to think, i.e., political progaganda. In fact, any student who knows how to think and practices it -- meaning putting ideas, logically, to the test -- does not usually get along very well with the teachers and administrators.
Some of the people who post here are prime examples of those who simply have no clue about or any interest in thinking rationally. They are quite happy to simply choose what to believe and then never take in anything that doesn't support those beliefs.
This is a formula for totalitarianism. Let the sheep now all go, "Baaaaaaaaaa"! |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 15:08:36
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Gary,
You might want to consider what is stirring up inside you that causes you to react this way towards the people who post here, and how that might contribute to your pain.
It is an unavoidable reality that you will not agree with everyone here and vice versa, so instead of getting caught up in that and letting it contribute to your pain, why don't you accept it and move past it. |
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n/a
374 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 15:29:09
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The trouble with any 'new' ideas in the medical field that are not backed up by hard experimental evidence is that a certain amount of faith is needed for that idea to be of use to someone.
Reading MBP for me was verification of what I believed already. In a way, it gave me permission to begin a recovery from chronic pain and years of misery.
I dare say that the orthopaedic surgeon who told me that the partially collapsed vertebra and protruding disc up near my waist was the cause of the pain at the sacrum area could back up his diagnosis with studies and years of experience, but I don't think he was right. I'm not saying he definitely wasn't. I'll never know for sure.
On the other hand, I felt Dr Sarno was on to something, but I have never used his books as I would a car manual. Whether pain is caused by mild oxygen deprivation or by something else, doesn't really matter to me. The main premise he puts forward works for me. More testimonial evidence, I know, but on this site we can not easily, if at all, offer any other kind. We can only hope that it might help someone, even if just a little.
And here's even more - 'Healing Back Pain' is still the second biggest seller on back pain from Amazon.com and the third on Amazon.co.uk. What this means surely is that there is a great deal of interest in Dr Sarno's ideas and here, I agree with you, Gary, until some way is found to bring his theories into the mainstream, or when other people take up the psychogenic causes of pain as their field of study (which does seem to be happening, in Britain, anyway), then I think that people will continue to be terrified by pain conditions and given advice that makes their lives more restricted than they should be.
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 15:30:20
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You might want to consider what is stirring up inside you that causes you to react this way towards the people who post here, and how that might contribute to your pain.
Wow! What a load of assumptions! As far as I know, I am not exceptionally "stirred up".
I do not "react this way towards the people". I respond to some people, usually people like 2scoops and goodguy, who challenge me or my ideas. Why do you think I should not do that? And why do you not address your comments to them? After all, they are the ones who attacked my ideas and suggested that I should not post here, not the other way around. I have never suggested that they not post here, only that if they were so adamently opposed to me, they should not read my posts. Is that not reasonable?
As for contributing to my pain, what makes you think I have pain? I did have a lot of pain, about 2 1/2 years ago, but by applying not only Sarno's techniques but others which I have discussed in this space, I have now gotten to what I would call about 95% recovery. I am running again, at my old level, and have less pain from sitting, standing and walking than I have had in a decade or more. So, if what I am doing is contributing to my condition, maybe I should actually do more of it!
Let me suggest that what may be actually going on with you is that you sincerely hope that I have pain because you are so opposed to what I am saying. Isn't the real question, "What is there about what I am saying that has you stirred up?"
Let me tell you something: The way I see it, rational people are my kin. I will go all out to help them. But the enemies of rational thought usually put themselves into the position of being my enemy. (Intellectual enemy only, of course, in the context of an internet message board.)
So, if you notice that I talk to my "kin" here (few though they may be) differently than I talk to those who appear to me to oppose rational discourse, well, that is why. BTW, my kin do not always agree with me. Agreement is not the salient point. An attempt at rational thought is.
Doesn't "stir me up", though. I relate to people this way because it is inherent in my philosophy. So far, it has served me well. May the gods look favorably on my kin. |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 15:51:33
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What is the correct way to sit?
I think that it is wierd that I first had symptoms when I stood, sitting brought on relief. Now ten years later sitting worsens my symptoms and standing eases the pain. You now I have seen an orthopedic and a neurosurgeon and they say that because of the crack that I have sitting should relieve the pain and standing should worsen it, but that is not the way it goes now. But since that is not the case, then they wanted to attribute my symptoms to a bulging disc. Through my journey to different doctors, I have not gotten any better with the advice that they gave me. They did nothing but put fear into me, with all their limitations and structural defects. It was not until I read Sarno until I seen some improvements and got the courage to live again. I have hope now, something I had lost. When I first joined this board I got some really sound advice, especially from Kenny and Dave. They told me that sitting worsening the pain was a result of programming and conditioning and you know what that makes since to me. |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 16:11:03
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"What is there about what I am saying that has you stirred up?"
Well I am just a tad by concerned by the length you will go in order to prove yourself "correct". It seems like the whole rational thought thing is a big cover for an ego that is screaming out to be noticed and be correct. This is the type of personality trait that can contribute to TMS, and might be worth exploring  |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 19:38:02
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Well I am just a tad by concerned by the length you will go in order to prove yourself "correct".
I do this primarily for entertainment. Writing argumentation like this is fun for me. And it provides exercise for my mind.
Do you think I think that I am "proving" myself "correct" to anyone? I am not that naive. Nobody ever changes anyone else's mind. All you can do, at best, is to give somebody information or advice they are already seeking. With this kind of philosophical discourse, even that is rare. I just do this for fun.
I think you may be thinking what kind of state you would be in if you were writing the kind of things I am writing here and judging where I am coming from by that standard. But you and I are different.
I don't think you are really "concerned", either. Hey, why don't you just argue the philosophical points here instead of turning everything into a passive-aggressive personal attack on me? |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 19:40:04
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2scoops: What is the correct way to sit?
Obviously, you should ask Kenny and Dave. |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 19:57:32
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| Well Gary at least you have a sense of humor. |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 21:40:41
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I think what Gary is really trying to say is that we all have to be careful about the kind of evidence that is presented to us and to think critically when reading claims made by others. This is only common sense. Believing in something is one thing but being fanatical about it is another. One could say that Sarno requires people to have 'blind faith' and perhaps that is why it works so well with many people. It is also a reason why he chooses only those people who believe in his tms theory . The same could be said about about various religions or cults where people who believe are indeed healed and one has heard of many such kinds of healings.
Even though I think I understand where Gary is coming from (and I have no doubt this is where he will diagree with me) I do wonder about a few things.
-what prompted him to start this board (as he keeps reminding us) and this particular thread?
-what is his real stance on tms?
-is what he writes and the way he comes across when writing (which seems to provoke so many people )actually his way of being pain free? That is if he is in any pain at all.
I would like to add though that in a weird kind of way I do look forward to his posts so Gary please continue.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
Edited by - mala on 06/30/2004 03:37:43 |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 03:36:27
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2scoops.
We are all here to learn more about tms and ourselves so we can get rid of this pain.
Exactly, and that is why it is important to let everyone have their say because you don't know what information it is that you may read on one of these posts that is going to 'click' for you. It seems to me that you want people to post only what you want to hear.
Goodguy,
We do not come to this board to debate the details of Dr. Sarno's theory
Yes we do and that is what we should all keep doing. This is 'the tms help forum not the tms believers only forum
I come here for support from people who feel like I do, and to keep me going when, in an episode of agony, I stray from the path I have chosen
Be careful here, you sound like you are expecting a lot from others. Also when you don't hear what you want to hear you blame them for not 'supporting' you. Remember that you have to assume responsibility for yourself and how you are going to deal with your problem/pain.
However, 2scoops, I think the best way to get rid of people who don't share our common purpose for being here is to ignore them. Maybe they will go away and start their own board
If you want to ignore someone that's your perogative but I don't think you should be talking about getting rid of anyone. That is a dangerous way to think.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
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JJV
3 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 09:01:10
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First, I'd like to say that I derived enormous benefit after learning about Sarno and reading the works of his apostles (Sopher, Schechter, et al). They opened me up to the concept of the mind/body connection. And for that, I am forever grateful.
That being said, I fall more into austingary's camp of thinking. For some people, back pain is completely psychogenic, and for others, it is simply a component of the pain. I truly believe that every illness or injury has a mind/body component, including something as simple as a paper cut! I'm willing to bet that someone with heaps of repressed rage will heal much slower than someone who is in a "healthier" emotional place.
Following Sarno's mind/body work helped my back pain quite a bit. I refrained from "focusing on the physical" and even kept an emotional journal via Schechter's MindBody Workbook. I did this for over a year, with a cult-like adherance to Sarno's principles. However, the relief was inadequate. Pain still ruled my life and I spent countless moments of the day doing battle with my unconscious mind. If there is any group that understands how exhausting that is, it's you guys!
Well, several months ago I decided that "there has to be a better way" and I OPENED MY MIND to the possibility that there COULD BE a physical component to my back pain as well. And guess what? I found it.
Now if I make sure to be mindful of my resevior of rage AND keep an eye on this physical component, I'm almost 100% pain free. If I slack off on either end, it's a recipe for pain. So, for me, it's not just one or the other.
All the best,
JJV |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 09:34:52
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2scoops: Well Gary at least you have a sense of humor.
"Life is a jest of the gods, Merlin liked to claim, and there is no justice. You must learn to laugh...or else you'll just weep yourself to death."
--------- Bernard Cornwell, "The Winter King"
Mala (about me): -what prompted him to start this board (as he keeps reminding us) and this particular thread?
-what is his real stance on tms?
-is what he writes and the way he comes across when writing (which seems to provoke so many people )actually his way of being pain free? That is if he is in any pain at all.
Ah, another rational person. But I object to your charging that that I keep reminding you that I started this board. Actually, although others, such as TennisTom, have brought that up from time to time, I have rarely mentioned it, especially since I turned the board over to Dave. The only reason I brought it up in this thread was because I was attacked as though I was some newbie who just showed up here.
Since you ask, I started the board because I had read Sarno, was using his methods to good effect but could find no TMS-oriented board on the web that was not crawling with advertising. Since my step-daughter is a programmer who could help me set it up and the expenses were minimal, I started one. I thought reading the posts would reinforce my anti-TMS work, and I think it did.
I started this particular thread because I was appalled at the lack of logical, rational, thinking, the lack of healthy skepticism, among people who post here. Also, there have been numerous discussions about why scientists dismiss Sarno's work. Most people seem to think there's a conspiracy against him.
I recently re-read some comments by the late Dr. Roy Walford about the nature of evidence and I was so impressed by the way he organized those ideas that I condensed, revised and posted them. Rational people will find them interesting, at the least, I think. Irrational people who confuse emotionality with thinking will be offended by them. If nothing else, they explain why scientists don't take Sarno seriously. Personally, I find it helpful to keep these categories of evidence in mind. Perhaps some others will also.
My real stance on TMS. As I have stated often on this site, I think that some peoples' pain is 100% psychogenic and probably all pain is at least part psychogenic. The anti-TMS methods Sarno talks about -- understanding the nature of TMS, turning the mind from the pain to your emotions, going about your life as normally as possible, etc. -- those all work.
I don't agree with everything Dr. Sarno claims. I don't think we have evolved to sit in chairs and drive cars. (Or patronize all-you-can-eat buffets, for that matter.) I doubt his "reduced blood flow" theory. But I do think that, somehow, psychological "tension" translates into body pain. I agree with him that most structural problems, such as extruded disks, etc., are not the cause of most chronic pain. There is a lot of evidence for that, apparently, from MRI's of pain-free people that show many structural abnormalities.
I don't think you have to believe 100% in TMS, like believing in a faith-based religion, in order for anti-TMS methods to work. Just do the work and let your belief, which probably helps too, take care of itself.
The testimonial evidence in Sarno's books does not have to be taken seriously. If you read the book and feel immediate relief, as I did, that should tell you something. If you go on to do the work and you get more relief, that tells you more. Does it work the way Sarno says it does? Who knows? But it does work, for at least some people, sometimes dramatically. Could it be placebo effect? Sure, but what's wrong with that? And is there really any difference between placebo effect and other kinds of thought-based relief? Sarno claims there is. I doubt it. In any case, the key is to do the work.
As for what I write and how it is perceived, well, I have no control over how it is perceived. In the beginning, as I said, my participation in this board was for the purpose of helping me get out of pain. Helping others was also a benefit.
Now, I am not in much pain. Over the past 2 1/2 years, I have not only done the Sarno anti-TMS work, but also taken some time off running, stopped a hideous stretching routine that was making me worse, and made some major corrections to my posture, i.e., the way I sit, stand, walk and run. In the latter, I was aided by a Pilates teacher who pointed out to me how I was holding my pelvic muscles in a tight rictus all the time and, lately, by Pete Egoscue's book, "Pain Free". I now do a set of exercises from his book every morning.
Looking back on it, I think what happened to me was that, first, I slightly injured my glut muscle, overdoing an exercise in the gym. It bothered me when running, so I started to stretch it obsessively. That made it worse. I stretched more and more, until I caused actual injury to myself. Meanwhile, I was walking around all tight, sitting badly, etc. which also made things worse. The pain, which just got worse and worse, caused me great mental stress, so there was a TMS layer on top of everything else. That's my theory.
The Sarno book and anti-TMS work helped get rid of the TMS layer. Stopping the idiotic stretching routine and taking time off from running let my tissues heal from the damage I had done to them. Learning to relax my abs, lower back and the muscles around my hips, allowed the soreness in those areas to slowly go away. Now, my improved posture and daily gentle exercise, plus an awareness of TMS and how to work against it when necessary, have all worked together to improve my life tremendously. I am running again, at my old pre-pain level and would describe myself as 95% recovered.
Probably the one part of Dr. Sarno's work with which I really, strenuously disagree is his notion that TMS is pretty much the only problem and that it doesn't really make any difference what you do otherwise. As I have stated over and over here, I think most of us have some bad body habits, such as holding certain muscles in a tight rictus unconsciously, bad sitting and walking postures that leave us in a daylong strain, etc. that make our muscles tired and sore. Eventually, they develop trigger point knots, which hurt.
In order to get out of pain, I think most of us have to do more than just the anti-TMS work. Not surgery, mind you. Structure is usually not the problem -- I agree. That is why I have told my story over and over about discovering the tight pelvic-area muscles and learning to relax them and about using the Egoscue book exercises.
And, of course, there is diet and exercise. If you weigh 400 pounds, you are going to be miserable and no amount of anti-TMS work is going to make you feel OK. I should mention that, in general, I am a fitness nut. I eat a very healthy diet, very sparingly, work out in the gym and run. I keep my B.M.I. under 19, which, so far (knock on wood) has helped me to stay in good health to age 60. I believe that CRON (calorie restriction with optimal nutrition) is the way to go for those who can. Anyway, I am constantly harping on eating and fitness habits. I am the quintessential Food Nazi.
Mala, I'm glad you like my posts. I enjoy posting them, although I waste too much time at it. Life is habits, you know, and this is another one of them. It mystifies me why those who don't like me or the way I think or what I post would read what I say -- especially on a board organized the way Dave has it now, so that if you see a topic started by someone you don't like, you can just not go there. But they do go there, read my posts and get all hot about them. Weird.
As I said in another post on this thread, I feel that rational people, the few of us there still are, are, in a way, my kin. I want my kin, who are likely to be as skeptical as I am, to be able to get this benefit from doing the anti-TMS work. So, my message to them is that you don't have to be an empty-minded, emotion-ridden robot, like a Moonie, fresh from his first week of indoctrination, in order to benefit from working on the psychogenic component -- whatever that is -- of your pain. Just do the work. Forget about belief. Do the work and see what happens. At the same time, allow your Creative Process to work so that if you have other insights as to what you might be doing to put yourself in pain, you can act on those, too. That's the way I did it.
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 09:37:20
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JJV: Well, several months ago I decided that "there has to be a better way" and I OPENED MY MIND to the possibility that there COULD BE a physical component to my back pain as well. And guess what? I found it
Let's risk the wrath of the True Believers: What was the physical component you found and what did you do about it? |
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painfreeny
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 13:23:01
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JJV,
What was the "physical" component of your pain, and why do you think it took you so long to discover it? |
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JJV
3 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 19:06:48
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quote:
Originally posted by austingary
Let's risk the wrath of the True Believers: What was the physical component you found and what did you do about it?
You just HAD to call me out on this, didn't you? Just the thought of risking the wrath of the True Believers will probably make my resevoir of rage overflow. I'd better dust off the emotional journal and prepare for an entry tonight. 
quote:
Originally posted by painfreeny
What was the "physical" component of your pain, and why do you think it took you so long to discover it?
Now, let me preface that this is just MY case and I'm not trying to cast a wide net and extrapolate this to everyone with lower back pain. I think we can all agree that there is no Magic Bullet that cures all back pain. Even within TMS, people need to find different ways to get that repressed rage into the mind's eye to deal with it.
First a little background information. My work requires me to be in front of a computer for over 12 hours a day, so I used to spend a big portion of my day sitting. The process of sitting, however, never gave me immediate back pain. In fact, whenever I would sit in front of the computer or drive a car for extended periods, I actually felt RELIEF! It was lying down that killed me, especially later on in the day and particularly at night. It was this fact that confused everyone in the medical establishment. Eventually I had to prop myself up in bed in order to sleep.
Applying TMS theory, I thought I only had noctural pain since I could not actively deal with the TMS at night. I had no pain during the day since I did a good job of revealing the "wizard behind the curtain." I could yell at my brain and tell it I knew it was up to. However, when I slept (and I use that term very loosely), I could not actively yell at my brain. And the pain would come. Getting up and walking it off would help or sitting down in a chair would eventually bring relief. Pure misery, though.
I never understood, though, why the TMS wouldn't manifest itself at night if I slept upright. If my brain is worried about repressed rage coming into my mind's eye, then it shouldn't matter whether I'm sleeping upright or lying down completely flat. Despite this oddity, I pressed on with anti-TMS work. I stopped doing anything physical that focused specifically on my back. No stretching, no massage, and no chiropractic. I did continue do workout and play racquetball through lots of pain. I did NOT want to get the TMS win.
After over a year of this without much improvement, I decided to look into the possibility that my problem might not be 100% TMS-related. (Yeah, yeah, I know how this "doubt" simply feeds into the failure of being able to deal with TMS, so please spare me the prosletyzing.) So, I tried to find a "logical" reason why I could feel good all day, but as soon as I hit the bed at night, my back would go into spasm.
Eventually, I discovered some materials that talked about the muscle called the psoas. A light bulb went off in my head. The more I read about it, the more I realized that my case could very well be psoas-related. After all, I spent over 12 hours a day seated, with my psoas muscle contracted the whole time. When it was finally time for me lie down at night--thus lengthening it--the muscle didn't like that at all and it would go into spasm.
For the weight lifters out there: Ever do a heavy set of biceps after taking a long time off? What happens? You can't straighten out your arms without pain. So you walk around for a couple of days with bent arms, as bending is the only way to relieve the spasm in the biceps. And it's not the biceps where you feel the pain, right? It's more like the forearm or even somewhere deep in the elbow joint. So we massage the forearm, but nothing happens. But if you massage the bicep and you get the spasm in the bicep to release for a moment... viola... the arm magically straighens.
So, I thought, what if I can get my psoas to release and stay released? Personally, I found success using Somatics to release the psoas, and then once the psoas was released from spasm, I... GASP... stretched it!!
Now I'm very mindful of the time I spend with a contracted psoas. If I'm going to spend more than a hour seated, I make sure to get up and lengthen the psoas. And by golly, I'm even able to sleep on my stomach at night now!
So, that's the physical component I referred to. However, I also want to make it clear that when I have lots of repressed rage and emotional "issues", no amount of stretching helps. So, I need to take care of the emotions, and THEN deal with the physical aspect of my problem. But for me, it's clearly not just one or the other. I need to hit the problem from both angles.
All the best,
JJV |
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Intelligent people ask: Is the evidence any good?
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