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PJ77

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2013 :  10:57:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Ace1 and Shawnsmith,

thank you for clearing this up. There is a lot of confusion and a lot to take in, although I have been stuck in this for a very long time and trying to my best level the points given, one can get lost into it especially when the pain is there for such a long time and not any better.

The advice given by Dr Sarno was to resume all physical activities. This obviously is counter productive when symptoms keep coming up to such high extent especially when one feels they have done all the emotional work.
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Ace1

USA
1040 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2013 :  11:31:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
He actually says resume all normal physical activity when the pain is gone or almost gone. That doesnt appear to be the case for you. In addition, the pain tells us you are still strained and your nerves are sensitized, so you need to work on this more and actually use the affirmations
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shawnsmith

Czech Republic
2048 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2013 :  11:48:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is interesting how we all read into Dr. Sarno's words what we want. I too am guilty of this. But Ace is correct, Dr. Sarno does indeed say to resume normal activity when the pain is gone or almost gone. I have found in my own person experience that "challenging" the pain has not be a successful means to recovery as the brain will merely up the pain levels. Challenging is not actually addressing the source of the problem, which has been addressed in Ace's keys to healing. Go ahead and see where this "challenging" -- without addressing the real source of the pain first -- takes you and let us know because I for one am wiling to be corrected on this point.

Of course I may be wrong, but I only have my subjective experiences to guide me. But looking back I do see where I have made a lot of mistakes, but I did not know it at the time I made them. Other people may tell you different things, but based on my lived experience, Ace is closer to what I believe to be the truth. Alas, we are not a patient species and every major faith / spiritual tradition in our history has reminded us of this fact. Now we live in an era in which we demand instant results, but healing from this syndrome rarely works that way.

Edited by - shawnsmith on 03/11/2013 15:56:48
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shawnsmith

Czech Republic
2048 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2013 :  12:04:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PJ77

......This obviously is counter productive when symptoms keep coming up to such high extent especially when one feels they have done all the emotional work.....



This is the problem with many people, including yours truly. I have done lots of emotional work over the years and have hundreds of pages of journal notes unearthing many things which have happened to me. But ultimately what good has it all done me? One could do emotional until they passed away at a ripe old age and it still is not going to lead to healing. Sure, doing that kind of work possibly will give you some insight into who you are and what makes you tick, but from my learned experience it is not enough. Read over Ace's keys to healing and let me know where he suggests, as a means towards achieving healing, journaling one's emotions or digging up the past is necessary. Be mindful of the moment, my friend, because that is all there is.

Edited by - shawnsmith on 02/19/2013 12:06:09
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PJ77

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2013 :  10:43:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Ace1 and Shawnsmith,

thanks again for the input. One can get confused with the information been given in the books and by TMS specialists, especially when in pain. I feel this has happened with me.

It did certainly not help when TMS specialists out there, who are making very good money by the amount they charge and have suddenly made a career out of this, give you incomplete information or not enough information and further reading to do. I feel mine has made out that there is nothing wrong with my back, i can lift and move around the way i want to because the pain is coming from the mind. If it went into spasm then do more emotional work. If someone asks me again to do any more emotional work and especially journaling I will end up killing them. I am so sick and tired of doing that and it has got me no where. It does not help either when the TMS therapist makes out the problem one is going through with their symptoms is not much of a problem, "its only a spasm so what?" The pain and especially the inability to move around sends one bonkers. "Have you journaled about this?" would then follow.

Thats why most people on here and the likes of SteveO are in a much better place to give advice because they know what is like. I will keep pushing through and have not given up yet.
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shawnsmith

Czech Republic
2048 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2013 :  10:49:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
PJ77,

As you may already know, Ace highly recommends the works of Ekhart Tolle. I have posted some of Tolle's audio links at the following thread. Please go through some of them, especially the ones I placed a star beside, and see if they help:

http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8097

Keep us posted on your progress and don't be afraid to share whatever you are feeling here.

Edited by - shawnsmith on 02/20/2013 10:50:37
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PJ77

United Kingdom
44 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2013 :  07:38:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you Shawn,

I shall watch these.
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tennis tom

USA
4688 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2013 :  08:05:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PJ77


It did certainly not help when TMS specialists out there, who are making very good money by the amount they charge and have suddenly made a career out of this, give you incomplete information or not enough information and further reading to do. I feel mine has made out that there is nothing wrong with my back, i can lift and move around the way i want to because the pain is coming from the mind. If it went into spasm then do more emotional work. If someone asks me again to do any more emotional work and especially journaling I will end up killing them. I am so sick and tired of doing that and it has got me no where. It does not help either when the TMS therapist makes out the problem one is going through with their symptoms is not much of a problem, "its only a spasm so what?" The pain and especially the inability to move around sends one bonkers. "Have you journaled about this?" would then follow.



The message the TMS practitioners are giving you is the correct TMS "KNOWLEDGE PENICILLIN"--that is the exact information I would be hoping to hear from one. If you are not recovering then as Dr. Sarno recommends you should see a TMS savvy psychotherapist who can help you dig deeper.

The other side of the TMS coin is the psychosomatic pain as a DEFENSE MECHNISM--a "PROTECTOR". Your subconscious is protecting you from experiencing even more painful emotional distress.

As far as the cost of seeing TMS practitioners, I've found they charge no more then their non-TMS peers who may well be clueless, providing no help or possibly causing unnecessary damage or long delay in overcoming pain. TMS practitioners have to eat and pay mortgage payments too.

Understanding TMS means that you are ultimately in charge of healing yourself and fixing your life problems head-on to lower the reservoir of rage causing it.

At this point it sounds like you may need to ACCEPT TMS as a PROTECTOR and that your life issues that are causing the structural pain will not disappear overnight. Look at the Rahe-Holmes list for the stressful life situations that can create TMS psychosomatic "dis-ease".

G'luck,
tt

==================================================

DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g

TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale

Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605

==================================================

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti

"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown

"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst

"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto

"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter

"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================

"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================

TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035


Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm

Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist


Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html

Edited by - tennis tom on 02/24/2013 08:09:20
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shawnsmith

Czech Republic
2048 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2013 :  10:36:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sadly Tom, these TMS savvy psychotherapists charge between $100 and $150 per hour, and they want you to keep coming back for several sessions. That is one spicy meatball. I remember speaking with the late Don Dubin. The poor guy was suffering so much with his own personal health problems at the time that it became a distraction for my own progress.
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shawnsmith

Czech Republic
2048 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2013 :  19:23:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just in case you all missed it, Ace has listed some of the biggest errors in using his methods. They are the following, as written by him:

Some of the biggest errors in using this method

The first is not using the affirmations like I describe. Using them as best as you can repeatably EVERY time your having symptoms or psychologically bothered and around sleep. Its good to think of the words, but just saying them mindlessly also works. We sometimes feel we can accomplish the goal of relaxation by just "relaxing" which in my experience, although maybe helpful, is never sufficient. I would NOT have recovered if I did not do this, even if I did everything else on my list. Sometime it feels "boring, or its not important." It is the most important. Sometime because we don't get the immediate result you think "this doesn't work", but it does, only over time though. This is #1 error.

The second is impatience. We think we that we should be able to heal quick. I don't understand this logic especially since it took years to get to the state you are currently at. Actually if I see you tell me you are cured in a couple months, I am very, very suspicious that you only had a placebo cure, which is very, very common among people who treat themselves with the TMS mode of treatment. I see that if someone doesn't get a result in 3 weeks they are searching all over to try and see if there is anything else that will cure them and this never works. You may say well, how would I know if what your saying is right? How do i know Im on the right track? Well, the only way to see this is to at least give it 3 months, and ask yourself - Am I in anyway(in the big picture) better or the same? If the answer is slightly better, than your doing it right, if not then there maybe something you're missing. I actually think those keys I wrote can help everyone, but it definitely takes a lot of time.

Another one is not recognizing that you have an urge to be doing something else or rush. It is very helpful to see this to change it. One more is letting the pain condition or sensitize you more to a situation. Challenging (fighting) a symptom is also a big mistake.

The best summary is that you have basically conditioned yourself to be sensitized to various situations, thoughts and to certain people by repeatedly straining to them (acting intense, outside of what your body is capable of doing). You might be sensitized to everything. You also have now formed habits of strain that perpetuate the sensitization that are with you all day. The biggest most universal one in TMS is the habit of the urge to rush or impatience (to be faster than you can be). To sit through life especially if you have pain and don't run away, but now act at ease. Use affirmations to help you achieve this state. Use the affirmations through your day. The affirmations also help to change some bad beliefs about yourself. Do not use the affirmations in a rushed, intense way as this will defeat their purpose. They are tools to help you achieve your goal of relaxation. Any tool in life can be used in the wrong way. Sometimes just sitting still is helpful, sit and just let go as if there were no worries. All this will not get rid of you pain right away, but in essence you are reconditioning yourself, you are doing the opposite to what lead you into pain. You are not letting the pain sensitize you too. If you strain more(become more hyped up or become more intense) because of the pain in a particular situation that causes pain, of course that will make you more conditioned to that situation next time.
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alix

USA
430 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2013 :  21:16:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But tennis tom, Don Dubin did not help us much if at all. Frankly it was so superficial for me that it was yet another distraction and another excuse for not doing some serious introspective psychological work.
TMS knowledge is just not enough.
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tennis tom

USA
4688 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2013 :  08:24:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by alix

But tennis tom, Don Dubin did not help us much if at all. Frankly it was so superficial for me that it was yet another distraction and another excuse for not doing some serious introspective psychological work.
TMS knowledge is just not enough.



Sorry Alix, speak for yourself but Don Dubin HELPED ME A LOT!--and he was a fellow tennis player. After seeing Dr. Schechter and being told by him my hip wasn't TMS and to get a hip-replacement sooner then later--Don told me he DIDN'T always agree with Schechter. This gave me great hope against the NOCEBO I had just been given.

Don was also a lovely and gentle man. He exhibited his humanity and didn't put himself above his patients. He freely admitted that he got TMS symptoms too.

TMS is part of the HUMAN CONDITION as the Good Doctor states and is NOT something you're "CURED" of. It's a psychological defense mechanism--a PROTECTOR from facing emotions that our subconscious has decided would be too painful for us. It substitutes structural or affective psychosomatic TMS symptoms, that appear socially acceptable as a distraction. It takes a very wise and caring doctor to sort through these and dx what is "real" and what is TMS induced, and prescribe a proper course of action, dependent on the personality of the patient.

I only had a few sessions in person with Don in conjunction with seeing Dr. Schechter and a couple of phone chats; that was all I needed. I remember at one session Don took me somewhat aback when he asked my what would I think if he said he was an "ASSHOLE?". I answered, Don I think at times we can all be assholes given the circumstances. I think that was the answer he was looking for and we didn't pursue "assholism" any further.

That was many years ago, I have no idea how many years as I don't calendar this stuff, but have a file somewhere if needed for reference. I don't let my pain--"whatever it is"--prevent me from doing much of anything. I own a successful business, I played tennis yesterday for about six hours, the last one practicing with a pro and a player who'd been number one on his high-school. Both these players were easily half my age, they asked me to practice with them and it worked for all of us.

After hearing the weather report of the blizzard in the plains states, I was tempted to jump in my Jeep and drive cross-country on old US 50 through Utah and Colorado, for some snow wheelin', (if my GF would let me) and put the top down in Florida, and hit the clay court tournament circuit. I can get my butt in and out of a race car for a track day for some fun at 150 mph. I'm not saying this stuff to brag, just sayin' I didn't let a dx by a doctor, even a TMS doc tell me how to lead my life. I've played tennis with too many doctors to believe all their calls.

So, I guess by Ace's standards, I'm "significantly improved". Though like I said, I don't think TMS by definition is something we're "cured" of. TMS is a protective tool, that depending on what vicissitudes life puts in front of us, we may need to use from time to time.


Edited by - tennis tom on 02/25/2013 08:57:40
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balto

839 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2013 :  08:39:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think you are very right TT, tms/anxiety is just a normal body reaction to or emotion. Our brain is nothing more than a "translator", a very bad translator, it would translate everything we put in our brain as: negative, neutral, and positive. Each of those 3 word will have a matching emotion and a matching body changes. Negative make negative changes in our body. Extreme and chronic negative will produce changes in the body which we now call mindbody syndromes.

Our work is to elliminate as much negative thoughts and emotions as we can from our life and promote either neutral or positive emotion.

Peace, content, compassion, forgiveness... is what all the experts are aiming for.

------------------------
No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience.
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alix

USA
430 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2013 :  10:05:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
tt, great for you. 24 sessions did not do a thing for me. My friend did 12 sessions with him and that was the same. Not a thing.
He was a wonderful man, no doubt.
I started to improve the day I simply did the psychological work, seriously, without distraction, and in isolation. I completely stopped looking for people or tools to help me.
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pspa123

672 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2013 :  10:25:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I had a phone session with Dr. Sopher that was so superficial it did not help at all. I had the distinct feeling that no matter what i told him he was going to say it was TMS. On the other hand Dr. Eugenio Martinez was very helpful to me in confirming that my neck pain was due to exfreme muscle tension wholly unrelated to the minor crap that showed up on my scans. He wasnt terribly helpful in terms of treatment per se but it was a crucial input.
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tennis tom

USA
4688 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2013 :  07:53:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123



...On the other hand Dr. Eugenio Martinez was very helpful to me in confirming that my neck pain was due to exfreme muscle tension wholly unrelated to the minor crap that showed up on my scans. He wasnt terribly helpful in terms of treatment per se but it was a crucial input.



But Dr. Sopher did get it right, he told you it was TMS and then Dr. Martinez confirmed it. After some time in the TMS trenches, you can become pretty good at TMS spotting. The percentages are real good that it's TMS, if nothing structural shows up on the imaging, since about 80% of those sitting in the doc's waiting room's pain is of psychosomatic origin.

Unfortunately, TMS does not lend itself to the usual insurance mandated physical therapy model of twelve sessions and the "tear" is "healed"--which it would have done all on it's own through the wonderful curative healing capacities of the human body.

Mindbody healing has to come from with-in and no doctor can live your life for you, the waiting room is too crowded for more then about ninety seconds of chit-chat. You have to find and do the things that make you feel good about yourself at the end of the day, falling peacefully off to slumberland, looking forward to waking up and doing more of the same in the morning.

Cheers,

tt/lsmft

Edited by - tennis tom on 02/27/2013 08:37:40
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Ace1

USA
1040 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2013 :  10:35:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TT says it very well. It is most of every pain and it take real dedication to make any good progress
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eric watson

USA
601 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2013 :  08:56:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Quote Tennis Tom)- Mindbody healing has to come from with-in and no doctor can live your life for you, the waiting room is too crowded for more then about ninety seconds of chit-chat. You have to find and do the things that make you feel good about yourself at the end of the day, falling peacefully off to slumberland, looking forward to waking up and doing more of the same in the morning.

Eric)- this is awesome tom- it says it all
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tennis tom

USA
4688 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2013 :  09:06:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Eric and Ace, yah, I thought it was pretty good myself.

==================================================

DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g

TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale

Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605

==================================================

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti

"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown

"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst

"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto

"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter

"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================

"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================

TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035


Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm

Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist


Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html

Edited by - tennis tom on 03/06/2013 09:08:43
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shawnsmith

Czech Republic
2048 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2013 :  13:15:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Please note that Ace is continually updating / editing his keys, so if you have printed them out you may want to print out a new version.

*************************
“The snow falls, each flake in its appropriate place.”
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