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Birdie78
Germany
145 Posts |
 Posted - 08/13/2012 : 13:53:46
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Hi,
I found some interessting analogies between the concept of traditional chinese medicine (beeing holistic) and TMS!
Once I saw my TCM-doctor she told me, watching my tongue and feeling my pulse, I have a so called "liver blood defiency".
In TCM each organ is connected to a special emotion. The emotion of the liver is anger. Supressed anger can attack the liver. And, who wonders, an "injured" liver causes numbness of the limbs, muscular weakness, muscle spasms, and cramps and dry eyes (suffering from drye eyes since adolescence!). TCM-doc told me I have to deal with my anger.
A friend of mine has permanent trouble with her bladder. Always if she's in a frightening situation her bladder makes problems. Bladder and kidneys, in the TCM, were attacked by anxiety and fear.
I find this very interesting and helpful, too. So the organ/part of the body beeing affected by TMS can give us a sign, wich kind of repressed emotion could be the reason for the pain/problem. What do you think about?
Wishes,
Birdie
This approach is very different from western medicine as TCM doesn't seperate between mind and body, it's seen as a unit.
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Birdie78
Germany
145 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2012 : 14:04:21
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I found a very interesting article about what I wrote above. And - also very interesting and mentioned in another article - accupuncture and herbs wont be very successful in treating this condition (because you have to change the way you think/feel/act and acupuncture can't do this for you!)
"People with myofascial pain syndrome are always diagnosed as having 'Liver Qi Stagnation'.
Pain and tension are a sign of blockage to the natural flow of Qi and blood. Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) state that the flow of Qi is governed by the Liver while the flow of Blood is controlled by the Heart. Together the Liver, Heart, and the Lungs maintain a smooth flow of circulation throughout the body.
TCM and acupuncture is able to diagnose imbalances in the organ systems at a much more subtle level than Western medical diagnostics so don't think that if you are told that you have 'Liver Qi stagnation' that you have a Liver disease as defined by Western medical terms. It just means that you are developing an energetic pattern that will probably result in Western medical condition. TCM and acupuncture is a preventative medicine and helps to resolve imbalances before they even manifest to the point where an M.D. can be able to diagnose any disease.
Anger is the emotion that is most associated with the Liver although all emotions disrupt the Liver's ability to maintain a smooth flow of Qi in the body. The Qi is said to move the blood so if you have Qi stagnation, you will eventually wind up with Blood stagnation. Most people with back pain have both.
This is how unresolved emotions or personal conflicts are said to effect the body in Traditional Chinese Medical terms. It is very similar to the theory of psycho-somatic diseases. This theory states that diseases are a result of the imbalances in the mind. TCM states that all disease begins with Qi stagnation.
Whichever language you like to use, the message is the same. Old emotions and childhood or adult traumatic events get stuck in the body, causing a cyclical, repetitive response these old memories. Our muscles remain tense, our Myofascial matrix remains frozen in the same state as it was when it originally responded to the initial trauma that led to a snowballing effect of emotional disturbances that followed ever after.
Now we get angry very easily, or frightened or manically joyful. We are hyper-emotional. All of these constant emotions excite our sympathetic nervous system, causing more strain and stress on our adrenal glands as all of this energy to driven from the core of our being, outwardly into our environment.
We would do well to close our eyes, ears, and mouth to the outside world and try to resolve the inner conflict that is really troubling us.
Try now, closing your eyes.....slow down your breathing...and try to feel your body with your mind.
Start at the top of your head and work your way down to your feet. Breathing deeply into our lower abdomen....relaxing our muscles into the earth below"
Kind regards from Germany sends Birdie |
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SteveO
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2012 : 15:46:11
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Interesting birdlady of alcatraz,
The ancients knew that anger was the thing that caused all of our problems. The bigger question is, why the anger?
If you're liver is angry should you pour alcohol over it to cool it down?
I read tons of material on eastern healing and they all said that fear was held in the kidneys. I wonder where laughter resides? My guess is, in the moment.
Steff |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2012 : 17:21:04
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| Very interesting and also surprising. I went through a phase where I sought help from a few TCM practitioners and maybe the issue was a partial language barrier but none of them ever mentioned psychological or emotional issues to me as a possible source of pain or my other issues. They were very highly recommended too as the best in my area. As none of their acupuncture or other treatments such as qigong did anything for me, I stopped going. Do folks here think acupuncture works except perhaps as placebo? |
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MatthewNJ
USA
691 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 07:31:34
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My gf is a western trained RN, now training for Chinese medicine and what Birdie shares is accurate. The Ayurvedic practitioners will tell you the same (see Deepak Chopra's web site). It is western medicine that split body out of mind/body/spirit. The Chinese medicine and Ayurvedic folks have been at this 5000 years. It was Sarno's belief (and I wish I could find the quote) that Rene Descartes work in the 1600's shifted medicine to a very mechanical, body approached "science". As we integrate what has been learned in the last 500 years WITH that what has been known for 5000 years, we will get healthy and STAY healthy because we will treat the whole being, not just the symptom.
Matthew
Ferretsx3@comcast.net
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Less activated, more regulated and more resilient. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 08:39:23
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I came from the East and was expose to traditional Asian Medicine for a long time. I witness with my own eyes it's effectiveness at the hands of skill doctors in treating many illness while living there, but since I also live a long time in the West so my thinking is kind of "Americanize" and it created some doubt in my mind.
I affraid to share my experience with it here for fear someone will say it is "nonsense" or "really!!"
I also think that most TCM practitioners in the West are not completely well trained. Achieving the title of doctor of tmc in China would require years of training and practice, sometime longer than it take to be a doctor in the West. And many well known tmc doctors in Asia sometimes keep their knowledge "secret", they only teach it to a selected few students or family members.
There is a very well known Vietnamese tcm practitioner who never charge a dime for any treatment he provided. He uses only accupressure and herbs and were able to help many stroke victim regained their mobility, help deaf people regain their hearing, and treat many other illness. He traveled from temple to temple to provide free medical care for poor people. The Vienamese government once put him in prison because he practice medical care without a license. But they eventually let him return to practice after he healed a few high ranking government officers of illness. :)
He has a waiting list of patients that would last a few years. He is currently also try to teach many student to help with his charity work. The government tried to investigate him for fraud but couldn't find any. Many "real" doctors tried to find reason to dismiss him a a hoax but they have not find any yet.
Here is a youtube documentary about him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6HoN8of-LE , sorry it is in Vienamese. It's just something to entertain you guys, not trying to convince you that tcm will work. I myself tried to get on his waiting list years ago but couldn't. :)
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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Birdie78
Germany
145 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 11:30:15
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I also think that most TCM practitioners in the West are not completely well trained
I think so, too!
Acupuncture often was very helpful for me (not to say the only thing that ever helped because pain killers never did), but I also noticed some differences between the practitioners. And: for me it's always only a short-term-relief.
I also find the herbs to be a great support and I prefer to take herbs than Western pharmaceuticals which had very evel side effects. But - for me - it's a support and I feel there's a lot of work for me to do! Of course acupuncture and herbs can help me to improve my sleeping patterns for example and also do alleviate some of my pain. But: they can't change my thinking patterns and the way I catastrophisize and react to stress, I've to do that on my own. I think that's the reason why I only experience some short-time-effects: acupuncture can "normalize" the chi in the meridians but repressing emotions and thinking negative will probably lead to "stagnation" of the chi again.
And concerning the placebo effect: of course there will be people who will be healed only by the placebo effect because they believe in acupuncture. It's the same effect as in Western medicine: some people will be healed because they believe in the knowledge of the surgeon.
For my part I absolutely believe in the existence of this life energy called chi or prana or what ever.
But I also believe that long-term-healing is more supposable when you are willing to understand what's really going on and to act actively and not only receive a passive treatment (the doctor will make my healing happen). Of course for some people this will work, too. For me it never did (and I really saw a lot of experts and health practinioners).
If I access help it'll be the help of some eastern practitioners because they can support me in treating the roots of my problems and not only the symptoms (I don't want to say that Western medicine is all bad but concerning the theory of chronic pain...no comment)
Kind regards from Germany sends Birdie |
Edited by - Birdie78 on 12/08/2012 11:36:09 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 15:19:56
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| For what it's worth, at p 142 of SteveO's book, he lists acupuncture as something that works by placebo effect. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 18:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
For what it's worth, at p 142 of SteveO's book, he lists acupuncture as something that works by placebo effect.
Most of the time Western medicine consider placebo effect is a bad thing. Pharmaceutical industry considered it a failure if the effect of their medicine turn out to be not any better than placebo. Doctors always try to make sure their patient's healing is not due to placebo, they want to achieve "real" healing.
In the East, atleast in the old day (they are pretty westernized now too), medicine men tried to harness the effect of placebo. They tried to intensified and prolong the placebo effect for as long as they can until the patient's health is improved enough to regain their confidence in their body and mind to heal on their own. That is why they usually spend longer time with their patient. They talk more and asked more and try to gain the patient's trust. They tried to change the patient's belief from one of desperate to one of hopeful and confidence. Somehow it worked for thousand of years. It is more important how good the relationship between healer and patient than that of the medicine's effect.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2012 : 19:39:42
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Well, I just lost a long post on my personal experiences with having about 200 accupuncture sessions--damn miniature keyboard on my 9" netbook that I use when I travel. Bottom line, save your money and get a massage instead. I didn't write anything about accu that I have't said here before. So, if you're really interested about the topic here, do a "search" using the button above.
Here's a link about accupuncture licensing practices, or lack of, in California :
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/california-acupuncture-board-a-mockery-of-consumer-protection/
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
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"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod
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TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
Edited by - tennis tom on 12/11/2012 19:54:48 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2012 : 06:08:14
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| Tom, my experience was similar to yours though not as extensive. I kept thinking maybe I just hadn't found the right acupuncturist yet, so I kept trying. I saw at least five for multiple treatments, a couple of whom had medical degrees from leading institutions in China, and all of whom had numerous testimonials to their skill. I can honestly say that I did not notice any difference in my pain level or anything else. With the last several I started paying close attention to their approach and there definitely were major differences in terms of number of needles used, location, duration, etc. I had very low expectations so maybe that was a part of it, but that may say something too. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2012 : 08:10:06
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| I tried acupuncture twice for a so called frozen shoulder. Tom calls in quackery, I call it 100% pure bull****. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2012 : 09:49:44
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| Just reading the comments to the Forbes article that Tom posted, it is so reminiscent of back and forth discussions I have read on homeopathy and chiropractic, where people with equal fervor champion it and declare it quackery. Of course both sides will cite studies that support their perspective, find fundamental flaws with the other side's studies, and so forth. The discussions typically degenerate into ad hominem attacks and conspiracy theories. It can be really frustrating being a patient nowadays, is there any truth out there at all, or is it all subjective? |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2012 : 09:57:24
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
...It can be really frustrating being a patient nowadays, is there any truth out there at all, or is it all subjective?
Follow the money! |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2012 : 17:55:30
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I have to say that I tried acupuncture several times and it not only
did not help me, but I really thought it was torture. Of course, the so called Acupuncturists I had were not real, probably had 2 week crash courses. It really turned me off of the whole Chinese medicine thing.
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2012 : 10:09:09
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quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
I have to say that I tried acupuncture several times and it not only
did not help me, but I really thought it was torture. Of course, the so called Acupuncturists I had were not real, probably had 2 week crash courses. It really turned me off of the whole Chinese medicine thing.
I wouldn't trust my body with anyone that have only a 2 weeks training. It takes about 3,4 years of training to get a degree in the US (http://www.ccaom.org/faqs.asp#7 ), It take about 6 years of training in some college in China and Japan. Accupuncture practitioners in the West are a dime a dozen. They are worthless and only bring bad name to that practice.
I'm still undecided about the effectiveness of acupuncture. I saw it failed to help many time. I also saw it helped many time too. During the VN war I saw soldier wounded in the battle field were operated on without any anesthesia, just acupuncture to relieve the pain. I've saw it cure many other illness that I find hard to explain with placebo.
Well, we all think different, we all believe different. Pick and choose what you think is best for you.
Also, supposedly, accupuncture required many sections daily to obtain long lasting effect. A couple section here and there is worthless. Just my thought.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2012 : 12:20:27
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| In terms of not doing anything for me, there was no difference between American practitioners and Chinese practitioners who had medical degrees from leading Chinese institutions and obviously were considered the top at their craft. I think a lot it may have to do with expectation -- but this is true of Western medicine and drugs too. The placebo rates in psych med trials are really astonishing -- 30 to 50 percent of people feel markedly better on a sugar pill. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2012 : 13:55:11
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quote:
Originally posted by balto
...During the VN war I saw soldier wounded in the battle field were operated on without any anesthesia, just acupuncture to relieve the pain.
...Also, supposedly, accupuncture required many sections daily to obtain long lasting effect.
Dr. Sarno alludes to this phenomenon also regarding a study done about soldiers and minimal or no morphine required to ease their pain. It was due to the placebo effect of their stress being relieved from being removed from the battlefield.
I had several hundred acupuncture sessions done by someone who had extensive training in a "recognized" school and had his own clinic. I had no beneficial effects except for relaxation--you might say I'm a slow study.
I recall after President Nixon went to China and a wealth of exports came to the US from there. Acupuncture was one of them and people like Bill Moyers on PBS extolled the virtues of it. My view on it now is it was all hype. If it were such a great anesthetic for surgery, how come after decades it has not been demonstrated here? It certainly would be much cheaper then current surgical anesthesia. My guess is it's placebo and if they had the means to use Western anesthesia in China they would do so. Would you really want to undergo surgery or even the filling of a tooth cavity using acupuncture?--No thanks. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 12/13/2012 13:57:17 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2012 : 16:39:23
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| I have to be careful to say this right, because I mean it completely without any cultural or racial overtones, but I think there is a "hipness" or "coolness" or anti-establishment factor that is part of the appeal of TCM and perhaps other alternative modalities. I would bet, for example, that there is much more demand for acupuncture etc. in Cambridge, Massachusetts than in Columbia, Missouri. |
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Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2012 : 17:19:09
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| As you know the principal belligerents in the Korean War were China and the US. During that war it was estimated that Chinese troops suffered one million casualties and that about half resulted in death. Their wounded were treated with herbs, acupuncture, poultices, and the thoughts of Mao. The last two years of the war were pretty much a stalemate although Chinese casualties continued to grow primarily due to disease. The death rate was so high that a daring mission was launched to bring back some sick Chinese to find out what they were dying from. This mission was led by legendary Capt. Eugene Clark. It turned out the Chinese practiced abysmal hygiene and were killing themselves. To save face they claimed the US was using germ warfare and tortured confessions out of hundreds of captured servicemen to substantiate these claims. To this day they stand by those ridiculous accusations but however are moving away from their failed medical practices. So much for “TCM”. |
Edited by - Peregrinus on 12/13/2012 17:20:04 |
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TCM according to TMS?
