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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
 Posted - 05/13/2011 : 16:49:24
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I promised in a very public way to stay off, and I have for a couple of weeks. I'm prepared to have my *ss kicked.
It's symptom related, so hold on.
I cured up my back pain after reading HBP and MBP. The lumps and the soreness went away in my back. I have no restricted movement at all.
This all started in July 2009, three months after a nasty gallbladder removal. I woke up with a heavy feeling on my right side and then I grew more and more anxious and distressed until I was in a really bad state.
I then had an MRI which showed a mid-back protrusion to the left. Notice, not where my symptoms are or have been. Then things really got bad. I was convinced by doctors that I was a rare case and that any movement the wrong way would leave me paralyzed. (I"m not overstating this. I heard it many times). My great chiropractor, whom I had to speak to last week to finally pay off a bill, was literally speechless to find out that I was jogging and biking, etc. He then added that my right-sided pain may never go away and this was as good as I would probably get. How's that for "hope and change"? I told him BS.
I have ALWAYS had pain in the front right side and a very tender area near the scars.
I was massaging this area the other night --dammit because it hurt-- and I get up and see an angry nerve racing out of the scar area and wrapping around my chest. Right where the pain has always been. My pain never "moved" around. But the area of the pain front and side just happened to match up with the same disc levels (BUT AGAIN, ON THE WRONG SIDE), so at first the docs were convinced it was back related.
Now, I've calmed quite a bit since my reading and classes, and I'm jogging and riding my bike on hilly trails and lifting weights, yet the pain in front and to the side remains.
Bottom line: nerves do get trapped in scar tissue; that is a fact. Often abdominal pain is not diagnosed correctly, especially if there is no intra-abdominal cause.
I saw that screaming nerve with my own eyes. It was as big as a thick vein. I remember seeing it before, but whilst in the midst of high anxiety. I was applying some pretty hard pressure the other night.
I've never had any scans done on that area since the surgery, and when you are examined by a doc they always make you lie down. There has been a noticable bulge there since the surgery and even before, since the gallbladder was 3 times normal size and had actually pushed out my gut on the right side. It's really only noticable when I stand.
It all leads to this: real or TMS? Do normal people -- and I don't even know what normal is anymore these last two years -- get nerves jumping out when they massage an area? I don't ever remember that happening.
Thanks.
Sorry to break my promise, but I really need some thoughts here. I have nobody to talk to about this, so you guys are it.
Thanks again.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
Edited by - Back2-It on 05/13/2011 17:25:12 |
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Darko
Australia
387 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2011 : 20:29:50
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Back2-it,
this is very hard to answer....I'm certainly no medical professional, but I will give you my thoughts based on what I know and my experience.
quote:
I cured up my back pain after reading HBP and MBP. The lumps and the soreness went away in my back. I have no restricted movement at all.
With regards to the above quote.....need I say more???
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I grew more and more anxious and distressed until I was in a really bad state
This is definitely going to cause you pain
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I then had an MRI which showed a mid-back protrusion to the left
MRI's don't mean sh*t.....Sarno proved it, and there is even an article about how cap they are on science daily
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I was convinced by doctors that I was a rare case and that any movement the wrong way would leave me paralyzed
Check-Mate my friend........
Once that crap gets into your mind..........it'll dig in like an Alabama tick (quote from predator)
quote:
My great chiropractor, whom I had to speak to last week to finally pay off a bill, was literally speechless to find out that I was jogging and biking, etc. He then added that my right-sided pain may never go away and this was as good as I would probably get.
Surprise surprise........I have a very low opinion of these guys.....you would be wise to stop seeing this tool, and stop contributing to his Porsche fund. OF COURSE you will never heal....do you really think he wants you to be pain free, he gets paid to crack your back.....what a easy job.
It's hard to get a person to understand something when his salary depends upon him NOT understanding it.
As for the nerve thing.....forgive my ignorance
1- How is a nerve being trapped is scar tissue ANY DIFFERENT to it being trapped under your skin as it should be???!!!
2- For a nerve to be in-cased/trapped inside a scar, there would have to be an open wound, with a nerve freely exposed and undamaged for the scar tissue to grow around. So what, the doctors made an incision, cut around the nerve....left it exposed knowing full well that it would cause problems for the patient later down the track???
Rubbish......
Scars are tender...period....and will be for a long time
You are believing far to much of what is being said by brain washed and institutionalized doctors. You are also believing your toxic thoughts.......
What is TMS? A condition where you have physical symptoms, because the emotions are too much or you simply don't want to experience them.......
It appears physical because the mind what it to appear physical.....and you have all this supporting evidence, because you have a 'already way of listening' a filter as such.
you're in a pit mate, and the only way out it to prove to yourself that TMS is the real cause.....plain and simple
hmmmm wish I had of thought of that last statement at the start....would have saved myself a heap of time.
good luck
D
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2011 : 07:18:48
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Darko...
quote:
As for the nerve thing.....forgive my ignorance
1- How is a nerve being trapped is scar tissue ANY DIFFERENT to it being trapped under your skin as it should be???!!!
2- For a nerve to be in-cased/trapped inside a scar, there would have to be an open wound, with a nerve freely exposed and undamaged for the scar tissue to grow around. So what, the doctors made an incision, cut around the nerve....left it exposed knowing full well that it would cause problems for the patient later down the track???
Rubbish......
Scars are tender...period....and will be for a long time
My ignorance will have to be forgiven here too. I'm no expert on scarring and tissue and nerve involvement. I do know what I saw -- and that was an intercoastal nerve screaming out of the scar area near the edge of the rectus.
So, I'm one up for it being TMS.
I am not seeing the chiropractor or any other doctor since I started this journey last fall, except to register with a new PCP for my high blood pressure meds. And even that bastard said that I was a "one in a million" with my back. I had to call the chiro to pay off my bill. I had never gone to a chiropractor before and will never go again. F them all. There's one on every corner here. There are more of them than Starbucks outlets.
I know, too, that MRI readings don't mean much. That's what I tried to point out in the post -- my disc herniation was to the left and the symptoms right. Means nothing. NOW I know that, but when these f-ing doctors are telling you you are one wrong twist away from pissing in a diaper (and I heard it from a bunch), it effects you. I couldn't have a regular old lumbar problem. I had to be f-ing special. NOW I KNOW THAT IT'S BS. I'm also over any back problem, much to the chiropractic community's disappointment.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
Edited by - Back2-It on 05/14/2011 07:34:32 |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 12:29:01
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Hi Friend,
I'm also 2-3 months post surgery (uterus) and am having all kinds of symptoms of pain and fatigue that aren't directly in the operated zone.
What I'm realizing for myself is that the surgery was just an outer expression of a huge emotional storm that I have been navigating in my life. To some degree, the intensity of surgery provided quite a bit of "distraction therapy." Now that part has subsided, so my other symptomology is emerging with all its "one in a million" characteristics.
One thing I like about this TMS board is that I get to meet lots and lots of other "one in a million" types - that is, people whom docs can't cure, despite being as well-meaning as any other F-ed up human (being angry at docs doesn't heal me either). The one in a million thing isn't strictly true - there are always the anomalies in medicine - that is, the ones scientists and docs put in the "anomaly bin," because we don't get cured and don't fit the normal pictures of what a body is and what illness is and how to cure it.
I have found that within the Anomaly Bin are some of the great secrets of life, and picking through my own "stuff" has actually opened up a new pathway of life, although it's hard to explain.
Hope this helps, at least in the "you're not alone" department.
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 15:22:40
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Dear Wavy,
Hope you continue to heal. I'm taking that is is a vote for psychogenic?
I guess I start to wonder when there seems to be a cause and effect. Get cut by surgery, feel strange sensations around scar, begin chronic pain.
My question would be is, no chronic pain real? Have no organic cause. I'm not talking about in the back.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
Edited by - Back2-It on 05/16/2011 15:33:04 |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 19:23:19
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| Hi Back. I am wondering how you can "see" a nerve, which you said you did...when a nerve is as thin as a hair, maybe some are a little thicker but not by much. Unless I misinterpreted your description. |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 19:45:31
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This nerve originated in the bulgy area in my mid abdomen in my scar area and traveled up and along my ribs and around to the back. It had two origin points from the front bulgy-scar area,like a fork, went horizontally across my side, and then branched fork-like again towards my back.
As I said earlier, I'm no expert on nerves or tissue or scars; however it was there. The thickness was about the size of a vein; it just a grayish line. It gradually went down over hours. Later I looked it up thoratic nerves and it matched quite nicely the T8 nerve path, which run on the outside of the intercoastals.
I know I can do that same massage on the left side of my body all night same area and nothing pops up on my left side, and this was the side where I had my "horrible" disc protrusion, where I was diagnosed with a fake back problem.
Can any chronic pain be the result of a surgical procedure, or is it all psychogenic? I've been told my some that there is no such thing as chronic pain.
Hence my question to the group: real or TMS?
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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Wodg
Australia
89 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 05:19:28
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I hurt my back doing heavy squats 18 months ago. I heard a crack and BANG I was in pain. I couldn't sit at my desk at work so started to kneel. I kept my back straight and quit all sports including mountain bike racing. It was funny I had really started to enjoy my life found all these new sports to do and this pain stopped everything.
I would take about 2 minutes to get out of my work truck after a long drive because I was so stiff and in pain.
I went to a chiropracter and he told me I would have to live with this for the rest of my life. I would have to manage it he said. I said stuff that!
I reread Sarno's stuff on the net. The next time after a six hour drive in the work truck I was as stiff as hell and in pain. Instead of taking my time getting out of the work van like I usually did I literally jumped out. I had zero pain and stiffness. I kept this jumping out the truck thing for a while. I also started to slouch in my work chair and also started to lift things the supposedly incorrect way. My pain disappeared quickly.
I also get IT band pain, I solved this by running harder...jumping over logs and stomping my legs down hard with absolute disregard to the health of my legs. The pain disappeared too. My brother got exactly the same thing around the same time. Coincidence...I think not...We both agree it's bull****. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 11:41:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wodg
...I reread Sarno's stuff on the net. The next time after a six hour drive in the work truck I was as stiff as hell and in pain. Instead of taking my time getting out of the work van like I usually did I literally jumped out. I had zero pain and stiffness. I kept this jumping out the truck thing for a while. I also started to slouch in my work chair and also started to lift things the supposedly incorrect way. My pain disappeared quickly.
I also get IT band pain, I solved this by running harder...jumping over logs and stomping my legs down hard with absolute disregard to the health of my legs. The pain disappeared too. My brother got exactly the same thing around the same time. Coincidence...I think not...We both agree it's bull****.
Good post. This highlights the importance of resuming normal physical activity. This sends a powerful message to your unconscious that you do not believe the pain is due to structural issues.
I remember when in the throws of some pretty bad lower back pain, I would do extra leg presses in the gym while in my mind I was saying "f*** you" and "take that!" to the pain. Sounds silly, but it does work . . . |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 11:54:50
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I liked Wodg's post as well. I do it myself. For me, it's almost a counter-phobic response. It's actually easier sometimes for me to just dive into something, to actively defy it, then to try to passively ignore it.
Speaking only for myself, it's an example of how I can sometimes use fear to my advantage. |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 13:53:31
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Dave...
quote:
Good post. This highlights the importance of resuming normal physical activity. This sends a powerful message to your unconscious that you do not believe the pain is due to structural issues.
I remember when in the throws of some pretty bad lower back pain, I would do extra leg presses in the gym while in my mind I was saying "f*** you" and "take that!" to the pain. Sounds silly, but it does work . . .
Okay... I have resumed my normal activities... I run, I bike, I walk, I hike, I lift weights. I do all the work around the house, and bend every which way with my formally "bad" back. I do this because I know from reading and Sarno and others that I NEVER HAD A BAD BACK.
Guess what,though, that pain band coming from the scars are still there.
I draw the conclusion that nobody here thinks that surgery can screw up tissue and nerves? And that it is only personal weakness and a failure to understand some point of anxiety or fear or rage that keeps it hurting? No ongoing pain or chronic pain is real, then, beyond what is conjured in the mind?
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 14:12:23
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"I draw the conclusion that nobody here thinks that surgery can screw up tissue and nerves? And that it is only personal weakness and a failure to understand some point of anxiety or fear or rage that keeps it hurting? No ongoing pain or chronic pain is real, then, beyond what is conjured in the mind? "
This sounds a tad angry. It also shows some mistakes in your thinking as personal weakness as you cal it has nothing to do with recovery. If that's truly indicative of your thought process that might be holding you back right there.
If you've had surgery and have pain that you shouldn't be, then no one here would advise you not to see your surgeon and have it checked out. |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 14:31:16
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I'm sorry, but I get the impression from some that even though I have had surgery that any pain that possibly resulted from it is still TMS. This is what I interpret others to mean as a personal weakness. In other words, get fully on the Sarno program an that problem will vanish too.
I beat the "back problem", which doctors told me was one fall away from being paralyzed, so I think I developed the right attitude and was not "held back".
I had no control over the surgery and I have had pain there from the get go. Ever go back to a surgeon and ask about their procedure and possible pain? I did. They tell it's perfect and that whatever is bothering you can't be from the procedure. Hell, maybe they are right. Maybe they are wrong. Not a damned soul can tell me.
What I say is F-it to it all. I will overcome this pain just like the other. I will do it regardless of whether some on here think that it is fake or made up or "rubbish" or if I whip my ribs around a bit more it will go away. I will because I've overcome everything else in my life.
Angry? Yeah, angry at the pain. Angry at no explanation. Angry at the dumb ass doctors that got me on the path of back pain because of a side issue.
Don't count me out now just because I'm not in the "gospel". I live with this every waking moment, and I'm overcoming it. Even Jesus had his moment of doubt.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 16:01:10
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Everybody has trouble accepting this stuff at times. That's the whole game really
Why is it hard? Because there are no guarantees.
I can guarantee however that anger won't help. It's often the reverse side of self-pity. Perfectly understandable for someone in pain, but not helpful. |
Edited by - art on 05/17/2011 16:01:43 |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 21:14:16
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I'm afraid I need time to allow myself both self-pity and anger. It may not be helpful, but I'm not a machine. It may not be macho, but i don't give a crap. I'm the one dealing with this every waking minute of every day. Nobody else.
There are no guarantees for anything in this world, none. But I have grown to hate doctors of all stripes. Medicine is called an art, but it's more like shaminism. The great majority know nothing, and, worse, will poison your mind by telling you you will never recover. F- them all. They know squat.
Unfortunately, I can't allow myself to break down in public, and there is nobody who cares if I am in pain or not, but me. I live and I work and function, and then I go home.
At this point I was simply wondering if scars can entrap nerves. It seems that scars can, but maybe not. Maybe that's all TMS too. Maybe I'm making my brain think that it can. Maybe my mind made that nerve jump to the surface of the skin. Who the hell knows?
All I know is that I keep going and I keep making small improvements. I believe I will be pain free some day soon. I'm sorry I have my doubts. I just don't fit into one of the neat autonomic nervous system complaints. I'm not a Lumbar or RSI usual.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
Edited by - Back2-It on 05/17/2011 21:16:11 |
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healingback
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 23:49:18
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back to it, did you say you were free from your back pain ? the back pain that kept you from walking and standing in one place ?
This to shall pass.... |
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Darko
Australia
387 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 23:59:31
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B2i,
it seems that I may have rubbed you the wrong way in my earlier post. I never seek to offend anyone....only help. I have a direct and very straight communication style simply cause I don't do fluffy. So sorry if this may have offended you
My aim is to get you to challenge the "rubbish" that is going on in the mind......it's the same for everyone, me included
I feel for you mate, you sound very very frustrated and I really understand....I have been there plenty.
However understand this......your current situation is like a spider web, the more you struggle, and the more the questions, the more entangled you'll become. What are your thoughts that are making you angry, self-pity and hate people? These are the toxic thoughts I always refer to and what is causing you all this excess emotion.....which leads to TMS
In my experience, the mind and ego always get pissed when it's confronted...simply because it wants to be right. It DOES NOT MATTER if you/we are right or wrong....WHO CARES???!!! What does matter is if what is going on in your head is self-supportive!
Does thinking the way you currently do contribute to your long term goal of "pain free"? If so, then it matters not what we say.......you should know you're on the right path and there is no reason for all the "confront"
Chill my friend, rise above the situation and observe it and don't allow yourself to get pushed around by the negative thoughts in your head. Hope this helps
D
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2011 : 06:15:59
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"Chill my friend, rise above the situation and observe it and don't allow yourself to get pushed around by the negative thoughts in your head. Hope this helps"
Amen.
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2011 : 07:47:28
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healing...
quote:
back to it, did you say you were free from your back pain ? the back pain that kept you from walking and standing in one place ?
I have had no REAL back issues, except the ones I was frightened into. My anxiety and fear level hit the top of the charts. As a consequence, my entire back at one time was in spasm. Now all those muscles back there are as smooth as silk. I can bend, run, lift, bike, hike, etc. The only lingering back thing I have is the pain that is referred from whatever has ALWAYS been going on in my surgical area up front. Once the doctors got a hold of that area, a neuro doc pronounced me with a mid-back disc problem after running a safety pin across my derma-line scar area and seeing the skin jump. An MRI proved him right. But the disc was protruding on the WRONG side. It was just an unlucky coincodence, but one that screwed me up mentally. I was on of the 15% of the population that has a disc protruding there. It is and always has been asymptomatic. It took me returning to all activities without any fear to realize how wrong it all was.
Darko....
I know you speak to help, and don't mince words. You say what's on your mind. I was disagreeing with the idea that there can be no complications from surgeries. Negative thoughts are not good. I make no apologies however to telling all doctors to F-themselves. They care about the cash only. I don't care what their modality. The psycho-therapy community is a worse bunch of vultures. They deserve to be given an overdose of their own meds.
I was only trying to float the idea about whether or not anybody believes that there can be problems from surgical operations, and it seems that the consensus is that there are not. That any ongoing pain from them is TMS. When I saw that nerve screeching out of my scar area, which is one big pulpy, mess, and around my back I had to take another look a the situation. I'm on no meds, so I didn't make it up or dream it. If that means I've fallen off the Sarno wagon for the moment so be it. Can't help it.
I appreciate you comments, but I'm in a fix right now, and it's gotten to me.
Art...
I've been battling the negative thoughts. Sometimes it's really hard.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
Edited by - Back2-It on 05/18/2011 07:59:25 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2011 : 09:41:35
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'I was only trying to float the idea about whether or not anybody believes that there can be problems from surgical operations, and it seems that the consensus is that there are not'.
If that's the consensus view, then clearly it's wrong.
That said, if you've a certain anxious, hypochondriacal mindset, then you're always going to have physical issues to get panicked about. There are no end to them. You're the one who has to finally draw a line in the sand. |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2011 : 12:50:54
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Art,
I've learned a lot on these forums, about anxiety and TMS, etc. Also in reading and in classes. I have, I think-I hope, learned how to recognize the anxiety fears and health anxiety fears and symptoms and to push them back and understand them. I also recognize from my past that I had many TMS/anxiety/ physical symptoms. Never knew until I got here what those weird things were.
The one thing I never did was eliminate the possibility of some type of nerve involvement in the surgery scar tissue in my gut. I was at once diagnosed as having a "back problem" and things took off from there. The front and side pain, the initial cause of my sinking to this state, never went away.
I fear that just like some with other problems or supposed back problems had to eliminate a "structural" defect, I think I may have to eliminate a "structural" problem in that area. If it can even be done. If there is no plausible cause then I can safely assume TMS.
I'm going to think on it for a week or so and decide what to do.
I appreciate everybody's responses, and if any more have any, please feel free. Yes, I have been testy. It's one of my personality defects. I've come a long way, thanks in a big way to the people on this forum. I would probably never have had the courage to jog, bike or do anything without reading about it on here.
Yes, I am bitter against doctors. I don't know, really, if they are all in it for the money, but when they tell you you'll never recover or that you are a freak case (over and over) it got to me. If I practiced the same lack of customer service and "listened" as little as most doctors do to what you are telling them, I would be broker than I already am.
That's why I have to think on even trying to have anything looked at in my scar area. More guessing will be the result, probably.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
Edited by - Back2-It on 05/18/2011 13:32:55 |
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Broken promise; advice needed. Sorry.
