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kokolo
Croatia
11 Posts |
 Posted - 05/09/2011 : 16:34:17
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Hello everybody!
I was diagnosed disc extrusion and disc protrusion on levels L4-L5 and L5-S1 (classic case I suppose). More correctly, pain started 5 months before correct diagnosis based on MRI. Approximately 9 months after beginning of the pains I read Sarno's "Healing back pain" and "The divided mind". Before that I went to the physical therapy without any results. I tried some suggestions from the books and the pain was reduced 2 months later by maybe 30-40 %, it is difficult to say. I didn't feel the pain in the back, buttock, and leg all day long and i could sit longer and it wasn't so painful, but there was still some pain, reduced leg movement and tense in the leg. After that I didn't really "talked with myself" and i didn't follow steps from the books anymore.
Pain started again a week ago.
The reason I didn't follow steps is that I honestly wasn't truly convinced in TMS. I wasn't sure if it was the therapy or the books or my nerve in the back simply "died" or something else that made me feel better. So how are you people convinced in Sarno's TMS story? Are you convinced 100% without any doubts. Are you scared that this is all BS and you will do more damage to yourself? How is is that when I'm sitting the pain starts every time? I can't figure that, if there is no mechanical problem, why the pressure from sitting causes pain in deformed disc area? How can it be my subconscious when it hurt from sitting even before i was aware that disc is the problem?
Or my muscles, nerves and other tissue from lack of oxygen described by Sarno are physically weaker and inflammated and respond to pressure because of that?
Also when I start to talk with myself and try to analyze my feelings I have noticed that I often start sentence with "maybe it is..." What I am trying to say is how can i know for sure what is the emotion or event on which i need to base myself and dig deeper?
I'm sorry for the long post (and bad English) but I thought that it is better to ask here some things and start doing things properly. |
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Darko
Australia
387 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2011 : 18:52:27
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Pozdrav kokolo,
I also speak hrvatski.....but obviously not on this forum.
You just told us that you had evidence that Sarno's stuff worked for you and you had no results with physical therapy.......so if something is working for you doesn't it make sense to keep doing that?
Do you understand the physical impact the mind has on the body....stress for example?
D |
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kokolo
Croatia
11 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2011 : 09:44:58
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Pozdrav i tebi Darko!
Like I said the pain reduced 2 months after I read sarno's books for the first time. I stopped with physical therapy also before 2 months, more or less. So i wasn't sure what did it, or it was neither. Then I was 10 months with reduced pain like I said above. And now, puf! All came back, big problem with sitting, I can't lift my right leg more than 15-20 cm when lying, constant awareness of discomfort. And on pictures and medical report the herniated disc "went out" on the right side. I'm in fear that it is mechanical problem in my back and that I might hurt myself. Here, in Croatia, no one knows of TMS so I can't ask anyone. Also I can't find out what is my anger and emotion that is supposed to make me feel this way. I can number many relevant things in my past that may be the reason, but I can't be for sure what it is and I find it difficult to honestly feel so much rage and anger towards anyone to blame it for this condition. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2011 : 11:19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by kokolo
Are you scared that this is all BS and you will do more damage to yourself?
This statement implies you believe that there is some kind of structural damage causing the pain. This is contradictory to accepting the TMS diagnosis.
quote:
How is is that when I'm sitting the pain starts every time?
I suggest you re-read the portion of Dr. Sarno's book that discusses conditioning. It is one of the most important concepts in TMS.
quote:
...how can i know for sure what is the emotion or event on which i need to base myself and dig deeper?
You can't. That is not possible, nor is it necessary. You simply must accept that the pain is benign, not caused by a structural problem. Consider it a signal to address your emotional state. Think about what might be bothering you deep down. Think about what is going on in your life that you are not fully facing up to. Think about the difficult feelings that you might be avoiding, that are being repressed and contributing to the pain. There is no way to know what these feelings are; in fact, they are unconscious. It is the act of trying to figure out those feelings that is important.
To recover from TMS you must accept the diagnosis and follow the treatment suggestions. It is not necessary to remove all doubt; in fact, this may not be possible. But you must act as if you believe 100%. This means repudiating the structual diagnosis, and ceasing physical treatments. You cannot go halfway. You must make a commitment. |
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kokolo
Croatia
11 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2011 : 17:07:31
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quote:
This statement implies you believe that there is some kind of structural damage causing the pain. This is contradictory to accepting the TMS diagnosis.
Some people diagnosed with discus hernia loose ability to control bladder and bowel. I didn't, but I'm curious how is this explained with concept of TMS? Or is it a sign that it isn't TMS. As I understood, this situation happens after some time being affected with hernia, due to pinched nerve that controls this function?
So what is your opinion about this, and how do you explain it? |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2011 : 12:30:43
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quote:
Originally posted by kokolo
quote:
This statement implies you believe that there is some kind of structural damage causing the pain. This is contradictory to accepting the TMS diagnosis.
Some people diagnosed with discus hernia loose ability to control bladder and bowel. I didn't, but I'm curious how is this explained with concept of TMS? Or is it a sign that it isn't TMS. As I understood, this situation happens after some time being affected with hernia, due to pinched nerve that controls this function?
So what is your opinion about this, and how do you explain it?
I am not a medical professional and cannot comment on any diagnosis.
Certainly, not all symptoms are TMS. It is possible that one might have a serious condition such as a tumor, or congenital defect in the spine, or an acute injury. This is why it is critical to have a full medical checkup to rule out such serious conditions.
That said, if an MRI shows only disc herniations or protrusions, it is possible these are totally benign and do not cause pain. There is a good chance that the MRI of a symptom-free person will show some disc anomolies. The discs are the "shock absorbers" of the spine and in the course of doing their normal job, they may bulge, slip, or herniate.
You seem to be looking for reasons to doubt the TMS theory. This is not unusual, as it is a difficult concept to accept, and your unconscious mind will do everything possible to prevent you from believing it. You must decide if you want to make the choice to treat the pain as TMS and commit to treating it as such. |
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kokolo
Croatia
11 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2011 : 14:27:31
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Thank you for your answer.
I chosen to accept TMS theory. In order to get best results, I need to find answers to these questions to remove any fear of damaging myself. After all, information is main weapon of fighting against unconscious and pain. TMS theory shouldn't be based on just believing in it, like it is religion and there are some dogmas that we should just accept them without answering. |
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Darko
Australia
387 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2011 : 16:57:46
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Koloko,
I've posted this before but have a read of it. MRI scans aren't really that helpful
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100313115328.htm
Also, Sarno does a study on physical abnormalities of the back, in the book Healing backpain I believe, which confirms that they don't have to mean pain.
If you're looking for conclusive scientific evidence that TMS is the "real deal" then good luck. There's a good reason why TMS hasn't been excepted by the general medical community.....however it continues to heal people.
D |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2011 : 11:18:13
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quote:
Originally posted by kokolo
I chosen to accept TMS theory. In order to get best results, I need to find answers to these questions to remove any fear of damaging myself. After all, information is main weapon of fighting against unconscious and pain. TMS theory shouldn't be based on just believing in it, like it is religion and there are some dogmas that we should just accept them without answering.
I appreciate the desire to understand TMS on an intellectual level. However, you will have to accept that all of your questions simply cannot be answered.
Personally I believe the exact mechanics of TMS are more complex than currently known. Dr. Sarno provides a simple explanation: inside of us there is a reservoir of "rage" that accumulates due to repression of emotions, and that rage is "overflowing" and threatening to become conscious. The unconscious mind reacts by reducing blood flow to certain areas of the body in order to produce symptoms. The purpose of those symptoms is to distract us from the overflowing rage that threatens to become conscious. While we are focused on the symptoms, the rage can be pushed back down into the reservoir.
Personally, I do not take this description literally. I consider it a metaphor or simplification for what is really going on. I accept that humans do not yet have the knowledge or intelligence to fully comprehend the exact mechanics of the process. Luckily, this knowledge is not important to recovery. I simply accept that the symptoms are benign, manufactured by our brain, and consider them a signal to look into my emotional state. I know that the symptoms are not due to "damage" in my body; they originate in the mind. Therefore, I do not fear them. I ignore them.
By saying that you have "fear of damaging yourself" it means that you have not fully accepted the theory. This is typical and there is nothing wrong with that. However, you need to let go of the structural exaplantion of the pain. If the pain is benign and manufactured by the mind, then this fear is unwarranted. There is no structural cause, and therefore there is no possibility of physical damage to your body. It is precisely this fear that fuels the symptoms. The fear is harder to banish than the symptoms.
It is more important to change your thoughts and behavior than to understand TMS on an intellectual level. Over-thinking and over-analyzing is counterproductive. Whether or not you fully understand, or even believe in the theory, is not important. What is important is the treatment steps. These steps are clearly defined, and can be undertaken even without full knowledge or acceptance of TMS theory. All you need to do is act as if you believe 100%. |
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Kullab
France
9 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2011 : 14:53:15
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Hello Kokolo,
I have an herniated disc two, with a spondylosisthesis, and I've been suffering back pain for ten years now, with sciatica for one year.
Today I am pretty sure that I have TMS. One of the things that makes me believe that, is that I can often (maybe always) relate periods of intense pain with periods of great anxiety or stress in my life (new job, important family issues, etc.).
Maybe you should try to remember what was going on in your life when the pain begun, and when you had periods of increased pain.
By the way, my sciatica is gone since two weeks now, but I still have back pain (less than before). This really makes me believe I have TMS. Did you match the profile for TMS, as described in Sarno's book "Healing backpain" ? |
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kokolo
Croatia
11 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2011 : 11:23:40
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Kullab, thank you for answer.
I've read the books before and i determined that i match the profile. Also i know all the theory behind tms but it is not enough for my mind. And I'm trying.
I think most of us live stressful life filled with anxiety and it is difficult for me determine what event was the "one". Maybe it was accumulation of all. |
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Javizy
United Kingdom
76 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2011 : 12:20:01
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| It may take you some time to accept the TMS diagnosis, but it's a scientific fact that stress and anxiety can literally kill you if you don't get a grip on them, so how about starting with that? You might also find reading about the Feldenkrais Method or Thomas Hanna's Somatics useful. You might be able to relieve a lot of your pain with some simple exercises done with full awareness of the motor and sensory impulses going to/from your brain. Don't believe you'll be able to recover - and stay recovered - without dealing with your emotional issues though. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2011 : 13:32:35
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quote:
Originally posted by kokolo
Also i know all the theory behind tms but it is not enough for my mind.
I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying, you want to accept TMS but you need more proof?
If you are looking for 100% proof that TMS is real, you won't get it. So either you need to give up and take a different path, or take a leap of belief and follow the treatment suggestions despite any doubts you may have.
You do not need 100% belief for recovery, but you do need 100% commitment.
quote:
I think most of us live stressful life filled with anxiety and it is difficult for me determine what event was the "one". Maybe it was accumulation of all.
It is not difficult to determine the "one" event that is responsible for symptoms. It is impossible. It is important to accept there is not a one-to-one relationship between the symptoms and emotional triggers. The unconscious emotional "baggage" that leads to TMS symptoms has no relation to conscious stress or specific events. |
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kokolo
Croatia
11 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2011 : 15:34:39
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quote:
I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying, you want to accept TMS but you need more proof?
No, maybe i expressed myself wrong. I wanted to say that my mind (as a unconscious mind) obviously didn't accepted tms as the cause yet. On the conscious level i understand. This is explained in book "Healing back pain" also. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2011 : 15:51:00
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quote:
Originally posted by kokolo
quote:
I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying, you want to accept TMS but you need more proof?
No, maybe i expressed myself wrong. I wanted to say that my mind (as a unconscious mind) obviously didn't accepted tms as the cause yet. On the conscious level i understand. This is explained in book "Healing back pain" also.
Yes, the unconscious is stubborn, it will not give up easily.
You should not expect a fast cure or miraculous cessation of pain. One complaint I have about Dr. Sarno's books is that he implies most people get 100% relief in just a few weeks. In my experience (and based on much feedback on this forum) this is simply not true.
It is best to take a long-term view and not track or monitor your symptoms. Just do the work and trust that over time, the symptoms will fade. Treatment is a life-long change in the way you think about and react to the symptoms. Like losing weight or quitting smoking, there is no magic bullet. It takes time and persistence. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 09:01:57
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I think it might be what he think's he's seeing in his clinical practice, Dave, especially if he's treating mostly back issues. But I agree, it's way too optimistic in the real world.
If I'd seen him for my back 15 years ago I would have gotten better in one session I'm certain, because I considered myself cured simply after reading HBP. Little did i know how tenacious and protean this stuff can be... |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 10:04:21
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From Dr. John Sarno's, "THE DIVIDED MIND":
Chapter 10: "A Family Doctor's Experience With Mindbody Medicine"
by Marc Soper, M.D.
Page 347:
"Why do some people, who agree they have TMS, get better more quickly, others more slowly?...
...Why do some people feel better after just reading my book or one of Dr. Sarno's books?
I have puzzled over this and concluded that the "rapid" healers are somehow better able to put aside what they have been told in the past and fully integrate the TMS information. They can undo the conditioning that is part of mainstream thought and replace it with this new understanding of how the workings of the unconscious can affect the body and physical sensation."
Dr. Sopher's website is: www.themindbodysyndrome.com
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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How to convince yourself?
