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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
 Posted - 03/19/2011 : 07:05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
If it just appeared, isn't it possible that your nerves might have a heightened center of activity near a joint that is used frequently or even more simply a weakness exists there, sort of like an arterial anomaly like an aneurysm, that gets strained when emotionally stressed? Why does distraction have to play this role in your thinking?
I don't see a reason within that theory that the pains would disappear as soon as one doubts them, only to pop up elsewhere - often many different symptoms within an hour - and change places back and forth, lessening as you allow yourself to feel more emotion. I know many here haven't experience this (and likely don't have distraction issues) so let me clarify that this movement of symptoms happens quickly, not over days or months. It occurs from minute to minute.
Please keep in mind that I'm not saying all people with psychologically related pain have this experience - for many that one pain comes and stays and is likely a different phenomena - but for the many people who do experince "symptoms on the run", the direct stress explanation doesn't quite cover the experience. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 09:08:57
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Good points Alexis. To be candid, it bothers me that I don't have a mechanism to explain the pain. As I've said ad nauseum, I think it's in some sense directly related to fear and stress, and an appeal to the subconscious is an unnecessary explanatory step.
BUT, I can't say how fear directly causes symptoms. It gets less dicy I think when you move beyond the musculoskeletal type, garden variety TMS aches and pains. I question Sarno's contention that say, migraines or acid reflux are TMS. They're pyschogenic in my opinion, but the acid in acid reflux is as real as real can be..In this case, one CAN I think
draw a direct cause relationship between fear/stress and symptoms.. |
Edited by - art on 03/19/2011 09:10:11 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 13:37:59
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| Hi Art- I agree there are a lot of things on Sarno's list that I don't think are distraction (whether TMS depends on your definition). Some I would say are direct anxiety symptoms, but others, like depression are something else altogether. I always get wary of a theory when it overreaches in an effort to explain it all. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2011 : 10:50:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
Says who, besides Alexis? And where did the pain come from? You said the person "got" it, which is passive, outside the locus of control, which differs from your conjured pain. You getting where my confusion comes from here? Perhaps just an unfortunate choice of words?
As far as passive vs active control, this isn't an issue for me as I don't recognize the distinction in the way you seem to. Instead I believe one's sense of "control" is largely a reinterpretation which we place on our experiences to make them more palatable to us. So no, my choice of words is not unfortunate, just outside your own theory of mind. It would, in fact, make perfect sense under my theory of mind (a not uncommon one in academia) to say "Bob got a decision to learn to to watch TV" - the only problem for me with that statement is that it doesn’t conform to English norms of grammar.
Note that I am very familiar with the importance of perceived control in psychological well-being. The fact that the perception is important doesn't make it any more true. As Dan Gilbert and others have pointed out (in slightly different words) those with the most realistic view of the world are often the chronically depressed. The real trick is to both see things as they are and be happy - but I have to admit for most people it's probably easiest to leave them in deep delusion...heck, I've yet to meet anyone without a little delusion to keep them going.
I'm really not sure where else to point you except perhaps to ironic process theory (see Dan Wegner and others) and alexithymia and somatization research. None of these explain everything, any more than do anxiety based theories. |
Edited by - alexis on 03/20/2011 14:58:38 |
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Jonathan Baruch
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2011 : 12:22:13
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First time here...so 23 years ago after my mom died unexpectedly, had a crappy job, financial stress my back began to rage, along with sciatica. I went to every orthopedist, chiropractor, got epidural blocks, and nothing really changed. I was told to go see Sarno, but I was also 3000 miles away. Fortunately I learned a young colleague of Sarno's moved to where I was, and I entered into the program, weeks later all better. Over the years an occasional flare up, but all good, until the end of last year. I was skiing, had a muscle spasm, which become sciatica, and 12 weeks later after getting an MRI, which said herniation at L3 L4, going on the DRX machine, rereading Sarno, seeing my not so young Dr. I feel like crap. Quite frankly, I am a bit confused, as I feel like I have embraced the philosophy, but not seeing any results that indicate I am getting better. I am trying manage the pain without getting overly concerned.....but 3 months in and I am scratching my head!
Life is good!
JB |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2011 : 13:05:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Baruch
First time here...so 23 years ago after my mom died unexpectedly, had a crappy job, financial stress my back began to rage, along with sciatica. I went to every orthopedist, chiropractor, got epidural blocks, and nothing really changed. I was told to go see Sarno, but I was also 3000 miles away. Fortunately I learned a young colleague of Sarno's moved to where I was, and I entered into the program, weeks later all better. Over the years an occasional flare up, but all good, until the end of last year. I was skiing, had a muscle spasm, which become sciatica, and 12 weeks later after getting an MRI, which said herniation at L3 L4, going on the DRX machine, rereading Sarno, seeing my not so young Dr. I feel like crap. Quite frankly, I am a bit confused, as I feel like I have embraced the philosophy, but not seeing any results that indicate I am getting better. I am trying manage the pain without getting overly concerned.....but 3 months in and I am scratching my head!
Life is good!
JB
is this the "DRX" machine you're talking about? I found this headline..
"DRX-9000 Under Investigation" (for fraud)..
If you're going to the chiropractor for treatment you've not fully embraced the Sarno approach, and it wouldn't be surprising you've not improved...
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Edited by - art on 03/20/2011 13:06:08 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2011 : 15:59:06
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quote:
Please keep in mind that I'm not saying all people with psychologically related pain have this experience - for many that one pain comes and stays and is likely a different phenomena - but for the many people who do experince "symptoms on the run", the direct stress explanation doesn't quite cover the experience.
Now we're on to a different topic without addressing where the pain or knocking knees come from. One you say is a distraction; the other not. I can't follow your logic, and really I've tired of the whole thread. I wanted to address this last point and let it be.
I experienced simultaneously more than 60 anomalies within my own body. They didn't move around at that point so much as they tag-teamed my attention. Whichever my mind would latch onto was my worry of the day/week whatever. It wasn't until I stopped reacting with "second fear" that the first fear's chemistry could burn up in my system. Easy. Simple.
Now, when the end was near, I also experienced things that were in one spot or another not just minute to minute, but second to second or less. It seemed that things could change at the speed of a synaptic impulse. This proved beyond doubt, at least for me, that the nervous system was responsible because the feeling was moving much more quickly than any process in the body related to circulation (the movement of blood is not constant, but moves with the pump and bellows system of inhalation and heartbeat.
The direct stress explanation fits perfectly because it is the body's attempt to return to normal (teachme and others report the active release of muscular tension) that doesn't necessarily happen in a straight line. If the person in the experience begins to worry or fret about what is happening, the body will not continue to relax but retense and keep the symptoms alive.
Again, I know my thoughts and experiences won't cover everyone's psychological experiences, view of reality or theory of mind. I would like to say, however, that Drs. Low and Weekes, the true giants of treating psychologically induced physiological disorders, wrote of their successes in a very useful and lucid style. I don't know what you mean by anxiety research, but their works would be where I would point you for more information without having to slog through my boorish parlance.
Low's work, in particular, is notable because he treated people in the same manner with varying psychological diagnoses from chronic depression to schizophrenia to straightforward "nervous patients." What he saw were psychological and physiological struggles that were met in every case with irresponsible behaviors of avoidance, be it holding a job, helping the family, hiding from symptoms, losing one's temper, etc. Through all my writing here, I've tried to distance the thought process from the discussion where possible because how you got here is not nearly so important as how to get out once the condition becomes physiological or somatic or bodily or whatever term you choose.
If you wish the last word, it is yours.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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Jonathan Baruch
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2011 : 18:28:03
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Art, I never actually thought of that...duh, but my doc, who is student of Sarno, does believe in alleviating pain, while also coping with TMS. Thoughts?
Life is good!
JB |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 10:16:14
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Hi,
My thoughts are that chiropractic is essentially a placebo dependent treatment... the premise of which is that there are structural problems that need be addressed to alleviate pain..
Chiropractic is in approach and philosophy as far away from Sarno and his tenets as you can get..
I suggest reading or re-reading Healing Back Pain. Dollars to donuts you'll quickly improve after that
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 20:06:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
Again, I know my thoughts and experiences won't cover everyone's psychological experiences, view of reality or theory of mind.
We'll have to agree that these are either different experiences, or that our interpretations of them are at this point irreconcilable.
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
I would like to say, however, that Drs. Low and Weekes, the true giants of treating psychologically induced physiological disorders, wrote of their successes in a very useful and lucid style. I don't know what you mean by anxiety research, but their works would be where I would point you for more information without having to slog through my boorish parlance.
By "anxiety research" I mean real controlled studies done by professionals in the field and published in peer reviewed journals.
While Weekes is a great popular author whose ideas have helped many, she is just that, a popular non-psychologist who speaks from her own personal reading of other people's research and her personal experience in practice - exactly like Sarno but with a different bent. I do think Weekes is a help when you need it (I've read her myself and her approach on panic has clearly helped thousands), but for purely academic interest I tend to prefer journal publications. I don't know if I've read Low - at least not sure which Low you mean. |
Edited by - alexis on 03/21/2011 20:39:36 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 06:13:55
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Hi Hillbilly,
It just dawned on me why you keep saying you don't understand what I'm talking about and asking "where" a distraction comes from. This whole confusion didn't really make sense to me as we're talking about the same biological systems except, as I said, I'm talking about conditioned responses.
The first discrepancy in our premises was obviously that we have different ideas about control and choice (I don't see the same distinctions you do). But I think a much bigger issue is that you, I believe, are looking at the autonomic nervous system as entirely automatic, and outside of conscious (or subconsious if some prefer) control. I'm looking at the research over the last 20 years or so where there's been a lot of work on conditioned autonomic response (which is mostly what I'm talking about) and conscious control (especially with biofeedback) - which is roughly what I'm talking about when I say I've learned to control/generate certain pains.
I do know that in the older anxiety work folks were starting to touch on this, but mostly in the reverse - diminishing of symptoms rather than increasing was the area of interest. But the idea is that it goes both ways...one can use conditioning and learned control both to diminish and create or exaggerate responses.
Anyway, I hope that clears up one of the confusions, though I don't expect it to lead to agreement since the possibility of interference with automatic response doesn't by any means imply it is in any given instance occurring.
Alexis
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 20:15:34
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Maybe we've exhausted this topic, but today as I was battling another TMS symptom (an old standby), it occurred to me that I probably disagree with Sarno's contention that TMS symptoms arise only from that which is repressed, that which is unconscious. Firstly, I'm so introspective that I doubt that there is much down there that I have not already speculated about at one time or another. Secondly, there is so much concrete real life stress in my daily life, regrets for the past, fears about the future...that this conscious part alone is surely spark enough for TMS. Further, I am so very aware of how my symptoms rise and fall with my general stress level. They can move, change radically within hours or even minutes depending upon my emotional situation.
The debate here was about fear. I am more clear than ever that fear is what sustains my symptoms. The fear owns me! So often I hedge my bets, trying a combination of conventional and Sarno approach, which feels like cheating, but often I don't have the stomach to face the symtoms head on. Always, there is the fear that I will make matters worse and that seems unbearable. Better to pay lip service to TMS, but sneakily toss down some ibuprofin.
Yes, I think (for me, anyway), it's all about fear. Nothing else comes close. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 09:16:27
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Welcome to the club, wrld. Seems clear to me as well, as I've said too many times already, that fear (and perhaps stress in general) is the culprit. Some might argue it's merely an academic discussion, but I see folks struggling unnecessarily in my opinion. Endless self-analysis and journaling which sometimes only serve to create more fear and stress when they don't reduce pain...
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Jonathan Baruch
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 11:04:00
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Art, appreciate the no mans land concept, but I am donevwith the chiropractor. The epidural is at the advice ofbthe md, Sarno's student who says the TMS is making the pain worse, so for the moment while treating TMS, get some relief.
I agree, as I have been journaling, and self analyzing and quitecfrankly getting nowhere. My doc, who was trained by Sarno, says there is nothing wrong with pain management while also acknowledging and accepting TMS. I must say I have readcthe books, meditated, acknowledged TMS and I am really, really frustrated. I stopped the chiropractic stuff, saw my shrink, which kinda helped, but my progress is going in thecwrong direction. This Monday, I am getting an epidural, to help relief the pain. However, I know this doesn't treat the mind, which I swear I am working on simultaneously. Yes, I am rambling, but would love to hear some thoughts.......
quote:
Originally posted by art
Welcome to the club, wrld. Seems clear to me as well, as I've said too many times already, that fear (and perhaps stress in general) is the culprit. Some might argue it's merely an academic discussion, but I see folks struggling unnecessarily in my opinion. Endless self-analysis and journaling which sometimes only serve to create more fear and stress when they don't reduce pain...
Life is good!
JB |
Edited by - Jonathan Baruch on 03/26/2011 20:06:47 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 12:42:39
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It's very difficult for me to wrap my mind around how one can declare their pain psychosomatic then seek out a treatment that by its very nature assumes structural problems.
Sounds to me like your chiropractor is talking out of both sides of his mouth. He spends his days adjusting backs that for the most part need no such thing...
You're in a no man's land. Since you've now presumably got doubts concerning the efficacy of chiropractic, you're not even going to get the usual temporary placebo effect. And since you're not fully buying in to Sarno (actions speak louder than words. you can "swear" your allegiance all you want), it's less likely you'll get relief on that end either...
All that said, it doesn't really matter what you believe or do, as long as you stop fearing your pain. That's the good news. (All in my opinion naturally).
Quit fighting and relax. 9 chances out of 10 you'll make a full recovery. |
Edited by - art on 03/26/2011 12:45:57 |
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Jonathan Baruch
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 20:12:20
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Art, I understand what u mean. I am done with the chiropractor, but let me ask you a question. Do you not endorse or believe in treating the pain, while dealing with TMS?I know that any medication or epidurals are temporary, and one has to deal with the underlying issues, but the physical pain is real.
Life is good!
JB |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 21:08:36
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JB...
quote:
Do you not endorse or believe in treating the pain
Sarno says take a pain pill. My opinion is, that if you don't deal with the pain it will cloud your thoughts and interfere with the mental work. Fear that the pain won't be tapered enough to live your life will lead to more fear and anxiety and depression and make things that much harder.
Chiro's look for the structural thing, so if you believe the Sarno gospel or the anxiety gospel it won't help in the long run or maybe even the short run.
The same Chiro I went to early on, who wasn't afraid to deal with my condition, both gave me hope and then poisoned my thoughts. Because it's all structural to him, he said that I may never recover 100%. What he based that on was that somehow a protruding disc would interfere with "something" never quite explained.
Stay the course. Work your mind. Take a pill if you have to.
Just my two sheckles. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 06:06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Baruch
Art, I understand what u mean. I am done with the chiropractor, but let me ask you a question. Do you not endorse or believe in treating the pain, while dealing with TMS?I know that any medication or epidurals are temporary, and one has to deal with the underlying issues, but the physical pain is real.
Life is good!
JB
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Baruch
Art, I understand what u mean. I am done with the chiropractor, but let me ask you a question. Do you not endorse or believe in treating the pain, while dealing with TMS?I know that any medication or epidurals are temporary, and one has to deal with the underlying issues, but the physical pain is real.
Life is good!
JB
There's no problem with treating the pain. But let's think about your method of treating it. An analgesic works at the brain's pain center. It's effective and cheap. When the pill wears off you can take another as needed and expect continued relief. All well and good.
But what does a chiropractic adjustment do? According to your chiropractor it realigns your back. But your back needs no such realignment. Any relief is generally a placebo effect. Nothing wrong with that, but it's expensive (many times the cost of 2 advil), and temporary. Eventually it will stop working altogether. Moreover as I said, it's likely to interfere with your commitment to the TMS approach,thus slowing any progress. |
Edited by - art on 03/27/2011 06:10:19 |
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Jonathan Baruch
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 20:37:06
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I said I was done with chiropractor, in retrospect I am pissed I went at all. But, damn I feel like i am sliding in the wrong direction. Tomorrow I go for an epidural. Reading mind over back pain tonight. Need some inspiration!
quote]Originally posted by Back2-It
JB...
quote:
Do you not endorse or believe in treating the pain
Sarno says take a pain pill. My opinion is, that if you don't deal with the pain it will cloud your thoughts and interfere with the mental work. Fear that the pain won't be tapered enough to live your life will lead to more fear and anxiety and depression and make things that much harder.
Chiro's look for the structural thing, so if you believe the Sarno gospel or the anxiety gospel it won't help in the long run or maybe even the short run.
The same Chiro I went to early on, who wasn't afraid to deal with my condition, both gave me hope and then poisoned my thoughts. Because it's all structural to him, he said that I may never recover 100%. What he based that on was that somehow a protruding disc would interfere with "something" never quite explained.
Stay the course. Work your mind. Take a pill if you have to.
Just my two sheckles.
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Life is good!
JB |
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FEAR!!!
