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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
 Posted - 03/14/2011 : 06:06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by art
Alexis,
There's no doubt in my own mind, or at least no reasonable doubt, that I worry about my various symptoms because I fear not being able to run/workout or play the piano, and because more fundamentally I'm afraid of illness and death.
I'm guessing that these issues aren't as bothersome to you then?
Hi Art - Yes, you are correct. While those issues obviously are of some moderate concern to me, they are not really the major issues in my case.
You are also right that my disagreements with Hillbilly are of a different nature altogether than those I encountered with TT (and which I doubt anyone wants rehashed here). |
Edited by - alexis on 03/14/2011 06:17:33 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 07:20:01
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Thanks for clearing that up for me, Alexis. You know, it's interesting to me that that stuff doesn't bother you particularly. But then again I have to remember that not everybody around here is as old as the hills, like me.
I didn't really give my own mortality much thought until I got into my 40's. I didn't start getting back issues until around that time either.
I'm guessing that most people with TMS would score high on general anxiety measures, and that of course includes me.
I'd be interested in how we test on measures of hostility and rage. My guess is no higher than average. So if rage is important to TMS, it's not that we have more of it than most people, but that we're somehow more bothered by it.
I don't buy it, but my mind is open. |
Edited by - art on 03/14/2011 07:22:21 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 18:55:01
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Hi Art,
I'm certainly not looking forward to death or anything, but for me my 40th birthday was one of the best days I remember. I never expected the tremendous freedom of realizing it was really pretty silly to worry about accomplishing all those "great" things at that point. After 40 I really was able to start enjoying life as it came.
As for the whole rage thing, I suspect that is only a main issue for some people and that for others it's fairly trivial. People who have emotional avoidance/distraction issues, though, tend to react similarly (with distraction) for all negative (and some positive) emotions - so I'm not sure how easy it would be to parse out the main issues just from observation. And since avoidance is generally a dysfunctional mechanism, it breeds other secondary negative emotions. Most of the research I've seen lumps all avoidant behavior together, likely for that reason.
You say you "don't buy it" above - but is it the whole rage-centric theory you're citing there (which while it may affect some, I doubt is the main issue for most people) or the idea of distraction itself, as divorced from the rage concept? (Distraction from emotional pain or or loss or embarrassment or guilt or fear...or yes, sometimes, anger or rage). There’s nothing inherently in the idea of distraction (which really is just the well documented phenomena of avoidant behavior) which ties it especially to “rage”.
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 19:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
Are you seriously attempting to paint me as someone who doubts that people don't do all sorts of things to avoid thinking about their troubles? Please! I've done that kind of thing today. That isn't what we're discussing, and you know it.
That may not be what you're discussing, but it is in fact exactly what I'm discussing. This is why I raised the comparison to self injury - one of the main reasons people do this is to avoid feeling strong emotions. For me generating pain is exactly the same as cutting to avoid emotions. It's exactly the same as watching TV, drinking, cleaning house, browsing the internet or whatever else people "do".
I've made this comparison multiple times now and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to repeat it. Yes, it is EXACTLY the same for me, so please don't tell me what I am and am not discussing.
What I disagreed with was your claim that the fact people had more than one pain proved somehow that they weren't distractions, because, as you stated
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
The presence of more than one symptom alone blows away distraction theory for me because one is surely enough to keep your attention.
I fail to see how this follows for the reason I stated - that people do in fact use multiple distractions all the time. |
Edited by - alexis on 03/14/2011 19:29:05 |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 20:25:07
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So much esoteria.
teachme made a very good point. Why some pain relief but not complete relief? It registered with me, as I have had some relief but not total, and am left wondering why.
He did it his way, as Hillbilly did it his way, as Alexis has done it her way. All went back to the bloodroot of Sarno, who, as it turns out, has had "hands on" and published for the masses, while others have written for science and psychological and rehab tomes and journals and have had obscure readership.
Each way may help some lone and worried individual in some way, and that is what is important. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 09:09:54
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Alexis,
I think I answered as best I could your two questions. I have not, however, received anything close to a response to this question: Where does the pain you are experiencing come from? Can you conjure it into existence? Yes or no, please. Also, if it is there without your choice, do you believe it is a warning of something to come or do you think your brain created it to distract you? You obviously have thrown out the possibilty of it being a result of your general mood, which it was in my case. So what's left?
You cannot compare an autonomic response credibly with what people consciously do to avoid feeling or thinking something. I know you've stated that cutting is the same, but that is a choice. I've never known anyone who stepped to a podium to make a speech and chose to have their mouth go dry and their knees knock. If you have, could you please put me in touch with them?
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 03/15/2011 09:17:44 |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 09:55:13
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| In regards to fear, the bible says that there is no fear in love, but that perfect love, casts out all fear. I think it's reasonable to say that many fear because they have not been loved perfectly. From what I have noticed lately is that many today come from fatherless homes, meaning the father is not a big part of their children's lives. Leaving many with broken hearts and broken lives. Sometimes a good dose of love can bring people to healing, knowledge and truth. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 20:06:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
I think I answered as best I could your two questions. I have not, however, received anything close to a response to this question: Where does the pain you are experiencing come from? Can you conjure it into existence? Yes or no, please.
Actually, after you asked your original conjure question, which used the ambiguous term "how" I aksed the following question
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I'm not sure whether your "how" is querying the technical mechanism by which I do this or if it means "how on earth could you choose this?" ?
I also gave a preliminary answer (tentative since it wasn't clear what you were asking) which you obviously didn't consider adequate. Your subsequent response did not address my request for clarification nor specify where you wanted more information, so I had no reason to believe you felt my answers inadequate. I'm not interested in playing these games where you pretend like I'm trying to ignore your requests when you clearly aren't paying detailed attention to mine.
Yes, I can conjure the pain. No, I couldn't always do that. Yes, it's learned. No, I don't think that's a great idea particularly, I just learned to do it like I learned to curl my tongue and others learn to wiggle their ears - I played and experimented and monitored my body, and I only did that because I was fascinated with the subject of the many causes of psychogenic pain. I'm sure you played that game as a kid where you all put your hands in a knot and see who scratches an itch first...and the itches immediately appear the more you think about itching. It's pretty much just like that, and the mechanism will vary depending on the pain (or itch or whatever).
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Also, if it is there without your choice, do you believe it is a warning of something to come or do you think your brain created it to distract you?
I don't know what you mean. A warning of what? As I have stated already, I don't think "the brain" has intentions. It isn't planning against you and doesn't have end goals. This is just a learned response. That's all. I think the brain can do unconscious things, but I don’t think that is particularly applicable to psychological pain.
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You obviously have thrown out the possibilty of it being a result of your general mood, which it was in my case. So what's left?
I haven't "thrown out" anything; I'm just going with best fits my observations in my case for my major pains. Certainly I think mood impacts my own pysical experiences - I feel nauseus when nervous, weak when sad and have muscle tension when stressed. I don't see anything abnormal about any of this.
I don't know what you mean by "what's left" - obviously I think for my main pain issues that learned distracting behavior is left (am I missing something here?). I also think pain comes from direct somatization and that highly empathetic people simply adopt pain of those around them. I think alexithymia magnifies normal psychological pains in some people and that anxiety and stress directly cause pain in many. I think there are multiple causes of psychological pain, just as I think there are multiple causes of physical pain.
quote:
You cannot compare an autonomic response credibly with what people consciously do to avoid feeling or thinking something.
I can and I did.
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I know you've stated that cutting is the same, but that is a choice.
Here we get into a tricky area of what “choice” is. Most American’s believe in a concept of radical free will which makes discussing this kind of thing tricky. I am a determinist and think choice is an illusion, albeit a useful one.
But barring that conversation, which is a bit big for this discussion, I refer you to the cutting literature in which people often find they are cutting “before I knew what I was doing”. Scratching and itch is the same. I’ve already cited those examples in this thread, so let me add the simple mechanism of tightening a muscle to achieve balance in a standing position – something you do thousands of times a second. This is not, in any of the many senses of choice, a “choice”. It’s a learned response you figured out when learning to walk as an infact.
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I've never known anyone who stepped to a podium to make a speech and chose to have their mouth go dry and their knees knock.
No, and that is not a distraction and I never said it was.
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If you have, could you please put me in touch with them?
I have no idea what you're talking about. I’m guessing this is some supposedly smart remark because you think (for reasons I can't fathom) that I believe that people feeling nervous, nauseous and having their knees knocking when giving a speech is a learned distraction response. I never said that; those are your words based on a bizarre misinterpretation of what I’ve written.
If you’ll go back and actually read what I’ve said I believe that lots of people have anxiety related physical responses. I, as I have said, have them myself as have most, if not all, people I have ever met. This is very different from getting a pain in your wrist right before that same speech which is the exact same pain you got when your father died and when you were pissed at your partner and which you blow up into a fear of the god-awful “wrist cancer”. That is a much more likely a learned distraction behavior.
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Edited by - alexis on 03/15/2011 20:17:13 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 21:00:38
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Alexis wrote: "If you’ll go back and actually read what I’ve said I believe that lots of people have anxiety related physical responses. I, as I have said, have them myself as have most, if not all, people I have ever met. This is very different from getting a pain in your wrist right before that same speech which is the exact same pain you got when your father died and when you were pissed at your partner and which you blow up into a fear of the god-awful “wrist cancer”. That is a much more likely a learned distraction behavior."
I'd go a step further and say the anxiety *is* the physical response. I experience anxiety in my gut, along with increased heart rate.. I'm sure there are many more accompaniments. Without these physical cues, I highly doubt I'd even be aware of being anxious in any meaningful sense...
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Edited by - art on 03/15/2011 21:05:10 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 22:24:07
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quote:
I can and I did.
Qualifier was credible. That hasn't happened yet, through many iterations of the same argument.
quote:
This is very different from getting a pain in your wrist right before that same speech which is the exact same pain you got when your father died and when you were pissed at your partner and which you blow up into a fear of the god-awful “wrist cancer”. That is a much more likely a learned distraction behavior.
Says who, besides Alexis? And where did the pain come from? You said the person "got" it, which is passive, outside the locus of control, which differs from your conjured pain. You getting where my confusion comes from here? Perhaps just an unfortunate choice of words?
If it just appeared, isn't it possible that your nerves might have a heightened center of activity near a joint that is used frequently or even more simply a weakness exists there, sort of like an arterial anomaly like an aneurysm, that gets strained when emotionally stressed? Why does distraction have to play this role in your thinking?
It wasn't my intent to induce this sideshow and usurp teachme's thread, but that has happened more than once now. I think the simplest explanation for what exists here, Alexis, is that neither of us understands the other very well. I can live with that.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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GMack
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 14:31:08
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| Could these heated comments be a distraction? |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 19:33:23
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| Could be, Gmack. All very interesting, but I tuned out sometime last week. The argument won't be settled here. Maybe we should forward this thread to Sarno and see what he thinks. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 20:37:51
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Well, could be a waste of time, but to be honest it's a nice change from the usual "My fingernails hurt. Could it be TMS?"
Before someone jumps down my throat, I realize how important it is for newcomers to be reassured. I've asked plenty of questions like that myself.
But the interplay between mind and body is endlessly fascinating in my opinion. Even the question as to whether there's really a distinction to be drawn between the two (the older I get the more I think not)... |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 19:42:22
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| Oh, I agree, Art, the topic is fascinating and I too can get caught up in it. In fact, that's the problem. I am probably too analytical for my own good and can spend many hours researching the minutae of whatever happens to interest me at the moment. The problem is, one needs to distinguish between this exercise and actually doing something concrete to improve the quality of one's life. |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 21:14:01
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Art, my fingernails are killing me.
But I think it's a symptom imperative. Yesterday my earlobe hurt. 
I just want to thank all those who have beat the pain and who have come back and offered opinions. They are different; yet so are we all. I've learned something from everybody, and to that degree I believe those insights have helped. |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2011 : 07:33:40
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| Doing good Tennis Tom. Needed to take a break from the board. I still see some of the old crew still post every now and then. How are you doing, still playing a lot of tennis? |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2011 : 11:31:47
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Hi 2Scoops, yep, still playing almost everyday, but not this morning since it's raining cats and dogs, maybe this afternoon if it dry's up. I'll soak in the hot-tub and work-out in the pool--can't get any wetter. Dad passed away a few weeks ago, not un-expectedly after taking to bed for five years and his last two months at skilled-nursing. Interesting watching my TMS symptoms develop, knee-creaking, (now gone and forgotten), left-upper arm pain for weeks now, doesn't interfere with the ball toss thankfully.
As far as my arthritic hip, not a day goes by that someone with good intentions, doesn't recommend the "best" orthopedic surgeon for hip-replacement or re-surfacing. This is usually after I've kicked their butt on the court. I'm waiting for "modern medicine" to catch-up with my hip. After viewing video of hip-replacement and resurfacing surgeries, I find it quite barbaric. Give me a cane, a hot-tub and some Celebrex any day. I've yet to see anyone--with my eyes--run faster after the operation, granted they are in less pain. Before long they are back in surgery having the other hip replaced they never complained of before. Pain is not the issue for me, being a step slow is.
I feel with all the surgeries going on, and now TV ads touting class-action law suits recalling some parts, an intelligent and observant doctor, like Sarno, will find a less invasive remedy for arthritis, which presently there is no known cause, treatment or cure for.
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6415
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Edited by - tennis tom on 03/18/2011 12:16:35 |
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FEAR!!!
