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tom
USA
7 Posts |
 Posted - 03/09/2011 : 17:46:39
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You're right on the mark in regards to my experience with mind body pain. Ronald Siegel's book " Back Sense" touches on the fear factor. The TMS controller is the fear of injury & there is never injury. Studies have shown that fear opens chemical flood gates in the body that can be more powerful than an actual acute injury.
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2011 : 20:34:42
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| I really relate to the idea of fear maintaining the symptoms, but according to TMS theory, only what is repressed is responsible for symptoms. As teachme said, fear can MAINTAIN the symptoms. But what created them in the first place? And how about the physiological mechanism? Do you believe the O2 deprivation theory? To conclude, are we saying that TMS is created as Sarno says, but that it is not the distraction of the painful symptoms that maintains TMS, but our fear of the symptoms? In that case, wouldn't fear be considered a distraction as it serves the same purpose as pain? |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2011 : 23:09:56
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Hillbilly...
quote:
I think you are 100% correct in that the fear of the symptom is the perpetuator of the illness
Yes, agreed. |
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Forfeet
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2011 : 03:18:14
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Regardless of the reason for it (distraction, fear, anxiety)for me there is no doubt that my physical symptoms both in the last couple of years as well as many years ago followed prolonged periods of worry and stress.
More recently, before the onset of the symptoms I have posted about already, I was extremely stressed about where I was going in life, being in a stressful Master's program in college while unsure whether I even wanted to do it, increasing student loan debt, in middle-age and never married-I could go on. When the symptoms began and I thought I was injured and even at times when they just felt really uncomfortable, the stress would ratchet up even more beginning a vicious cycle.
With the recognition that I did not have to fear the symptoms, they reduced significantly, and in some cases entirely. Relating to all of the posts here. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2011 : 05:56:21
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quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
I really relate to the idea of fear maintaining the symptoms, but according to TMS theory, only what is repressed is responsible for symptoms. As teachme said, fear can MAINTAIN the symptoms. But what created them in the first place? And how about the physiological mechanism? Do you believe the O2 deprivation theory? To conclude, are we saying that TMS is created as Sarno says, but that it is not the distraction of the painful symptoms that maintains TMS, but our fear of the symptoms? In that case, wouldn't fear be considered a distraction as it serves the same purpose as pain?
What would the fear in your question be a distraction from? Rage according to Sarno. But why is rage less acceptable, that is in effect more painful than fear? What is it about rage as an emotion that would drive us to in some cases almost literally eat ourselves up with fear and worry so that we don't have to be aware of it?
The idea seems so antiquated to me, like Freud and sex. Certain sexual desires were held to be so shameful that we had to go to all sorts of absurd and self-destructive lengths in order to keep them safely out of reach of our consciousness. Are we to believe the same thing about rage? Is it really all that shameful? All that painful? Like Freud and sex it seems almost a generational/cultural thing.
In fact, when you think about the real world it doesn't take long to realize that people actually become full of rage when they're fearful and ashamed, not the other way around. Many murders for example are committed by people who feel shamed and humiliated and full of fear. Those emotions are so painful, perhaps the most painful emotions there are, that anger and rage are welcome distractions.
Insofar as TMS is concerned, the good news is it doesn't really matter. We can take the long road, or the shorter road. They both lead to the same place... |
Edited by - art on 03/10/2011 06:34:21 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2011 : 07:19:13
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quote:
I really relate to the idea of fear maintaining the symptoms, but according to TMS theory, only what is repressed is responsible for symptoms. As teachme said, fear can MAINTAIN the symptoms. But what created them in the first place? And how about the physiological mechanism? Do you believe the O2 deprivation theory? To conclude, are we saying that TMS is created as Sarno says, but that it is not the distraction of the painful symptoms that maintains TMS, but our fear of the symptoms? In that case, wouldn't fear be considered a distraction as it serves the same purpose as pain?
wrldtv,
In my opinion, the autonomic fight or flight mechanism is responsible for the symptoms. It is hardwired into every being I am aware of and served a very useful purpose to humans in caveman times. The sympathetic branch of the nervous system responds to mood, and the HPA axis controls muscle tension, stress hormones, breathing, digestion, lots of stuff. Funny how all the complaints seen with these disorders run along the nervous system. In fact, Dr. Sarno himself now believes that nerves are the tissue most responsible for the symptoms. You see, the symptoms are limited to the areas served by this branch of the nervous system. Claire Weekes has a great treatise on it in "Hope and Help for Your Nerves."
What I believe Dr. Sarno did was, because he was a rehab doc who saw patients in pain, he sought a term for the pain and named it TMS. You can see evidence of the fact that he saw this pain as part of a larger framework of stress-related maladies (it actually was his first clue, due to the fact that most of his patients had suffered from his list of "equivalents.") Since he saw better results after treating it as stress, he kept the term even though evidence pointed in a different direction with regard to the mechanism of pain.
So far we're all together on this, as Dr. Sarno even mentions the autonmic nervous system and its stress response. But then we take off in Healing Back Pain on a tangent into distraction from unconscious rage and he loses me. It isn't provable, testable, indicative of modern thought in the psychological realm, doesn't cite the work of Herbert Benson or Claire Weekes, both of whom had written extensively on stress maladies and had studied and treated them successfully for years prior.
You asked a very good question, and I don't want to espouse an "answer," as I don't believe there is a good one: Where do the symptoms come from? We could ask the same question about personality, reactions to noises, degree of calmness, trouble eating or sleeping of babies. Their experiences are limited, so many behaviors are not yet learned, but their resistance to upsets of the nervous system vary tremendously (I have two children, one of whom is calm and jolly, the other a ruminating wreck like his dad). I believe we are born with strength in the nervous system or not. I also believe that those of us born with little resistance must work that much harder to develop it, and our life experiences in childhood as we are developing it seem that much more intense and difficult. Some suffer tremendous abuse and neglect; others have seemingly normal childhoods, yet they end up prostrate in adulthood when it all becomes too much.
I also note that anger is a surface emotion for me. It is often a precursor to my becoming aware of a situation in which my reputation is in danger. My life or reputation being in danger elicit the same response. Silly, but true. Embarrassment was like death to me as a child. Traffic still makes me nuts. Why? Because I am supposed to do everything right, set an example, achieve, lead. Being late could undermine all that in the eyes of others, and let's face facts: people like us spend way too much time worrying about what others think of us.
So, I suppose if I wanted to confine myself to thinking inside one theory, I could, but it appears that some have forced their minds into a box with TMS. If one aspect of the theory is incorrect, it all must be false. Not so. Think of the reaction teachme wrote of when he read the book. He relaxed and saw his problem in the context of the stress he was under, not something unconscious that hadn't been processed or acknowledged, and his pain/tension level dropped. But it didn't last because he went back to living as he did before, which is what brought on the tension to begin with. And this was despite the fact that he had substituted thinking about what might be in his unconscious, journaling, etc. This was my experience as well.
I have read this type of thing over and over. This is the book cure phenomenon. No longer does the pain appear insurmountable, but weak and unworthy of your attention when explained in the context of stress. But it won't go away until the life changes are made to bail the stress vessel.
I've digressed a lot here without intending to. But TMS in my view is muscle tension caused by an overloaded stress response in the mind and body. It is mentioned in many texts dealing especially with generalized anxiety disorder and is treated holistically with interoceptive exposure, relaxation/meditation/biofeedback, and Drs. Schubiner and Brady would agree more with me than with traditional TMS thought, if I understand their treatment programs well.
But if indeed there is a mechanism that operates with a strategy outside the conscious realm that directs pain to an area by shunting off oxygen slightly to distract us from what is really bothering us, the path out is still the same. You cannot get better while fear of the symptoms exists. This is the point I was trying to make before I got a little off track.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 03/10/2011 16:36:42 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2011 : 20:04:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
I've digressed a lot here without intending to. But TMS in my view is muscle tension caused by an overloaded stress response in the mind and body. It is mentioned in many texts dealing especially with generalized anxiety disorder and is treated holistically with interoceptive exposure, relaxation/meditation/biofeedback, and Drs. Schubiner and Brady would agree more with me than with traditional TMS thought, if I understand their treatment programs well.
Hi Hillbilly,
You and I have debated some of this before. I would sum our area of disagreement by contrasting your belief that all psychogenic pain is caused by anxiety disorders with mine that there are multiple causes, of which distraction, anxiety and somatization are only a few.
I do agree with you however that a lot of people are suffering conditions that are primarily related to anxiety disorders. I also, like you, don't buy into most of Sarno's pseudo Freudian theories, and believe that for those who do have distraction disorders, the distractions are primarily of conscious emotions (or at least emotions of which one can be conscious).
But given your statement above, regarding treating anxiety disorders holistically, I wonder how you feel about a board like this where people (at least those with anxiety disorders) are focusing on what (in the case of anxiety disorders) is just a narrow set of symptoms? Is there a reason that so many people are here rather than in some sub-discussion group on an anxiety disorder site? Is it just historical (how they first realized the psychological nature of their pain) or is pain of this sort somehow less accepted in those communities? Or is there a group I just haven't seen and the people here are only a small island of anxiety related pain sufferers?
I have always wondered about people in the "TMS" world who keep hitting their heads up against the whole TMS question when the distraction wasn't pretty obvious. I think if this stuff doesn't help you in a few months, look elsewhere...especially when there seem not only to be people here who have primarily anxiety disorders, but also what I believe are real physical ailments.
Maybe there are people with distraction syndromes for whom there are deep hidden issues - I don't know. But for myself and the few other people I am genuinely convinced have distraction issues it's really pretty straight forward. You don't want to think about a family members recent death so you a) work, b) watch TV, c) do some obscure home repair or d) pain. Yep, that's a verb. I just "pain" like I "watch TV". It's just another thing to do that's better (initially) than being upset or angry or scared or whatever I don't want.
Really my inclination to anyone here is to say if your behavior isn't this obvious, you might want to seriously consider there's something other than distraction going on. But for those of us who actively "pain" it doesn't make that much sense to hear it's just a symptom of an anxiety disorder. Frankly, it's more like the act of cutting but without knives or razor blades. You learn to do it, and it becomes such a habit that you forget. But it's not a big deep unconscious mystery. |
Edited by - alexis on 03/10/2011 20:49:15 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2011 : 20:10:58
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To help clarify pain related distraction for those of you who don't have it, here's the very brief self-injust/cutting description from the Mayo Clinic site.
quote:
In general, self-injury is usually the result of an inability to cope in healthy ways with deep psychological pain. For instance, you may have a hard time regulating, expressing or understanding your emotions. Physical injury distracts you from these painful emotions or helps you feel a sense of control over an otherwise uncontrollable situation. (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/self-injury/DS00775/DSECTION=causes)
Sound familiar? Those of us "paining" for distraction are basically just cutting without the injury. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2011 : 21:19:29
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Hi, Alexis,
Yes, I think many here frequent many different anxiety-related sites, read widely, and spend a good deal of time covering the same ground. I know I did. I have also read a lot of posts here in which people have copied and pasted items from these types of sites. I had more than 300 sites bookmarked when I was suffering away, and it is funny to think of it now, but I wouldn't have deleted one for fear that there was a sentence on one that would've given me hope.
You misstated slightly my position with regard to pain sufferers. I don't think they all have anxiety disorders. I don't even like the term anxiety disorders. I like stress illness or nervous illness better, but I use the term because it is known and widely used. My mother-in-law fixed her sciatica pain with posture work in a few weeks. I know others who've done wonders with trigger point therapy and even chiropractic care. I despise the dismissive shouts of "placebo," as it is a mindless parroting.
You have coined the term "distraction syndromes." I'd like to hear more about that. Can you name a few? Where can I find out more information about them? Also, you didn't answer a question I posed to you in a prior thread about how you can conjure pain into existence as a choice when the alternative seems to be suffering some emotional discomfort. You state you are pain free, so how does this work? Again, our correspondence indicates that yours is a unique experience, markedly different from all others whose experiences I've read about or heard firsthand.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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maldon
United Kingdom
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2011 : 01:29:15
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quote:
Originally posted by alexis
To help clarify pain related distraction for those of you who don't have it, here's the very brief self-injust/cutting description from the Mayo Clinic site.
quote:
In general, self-injury is usually the result of an inability to cope in healthy ways with deep psychological pain. For instance, you may have a hard time regulating, expressing or understanding your emotions. Physical injury distracts you from these painful emotions or helps you feel a sense of control over an otherwise uncontrollable situation. (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/self-injury/DS00775/DSECTION=causes)
Sound familiar? Those of us "paining" for distraction are basically just cutting without the injury.
What I hated so much about my TMS was the bolt of electric agony that came 'out of the blue' and put a halt to my life for a week. I admit that I have seriously considered whether controlled self-harming would stop the sciatica pain that is so debilitating but what put me off was the thought that perhaps I'd have to keep upping the pain dosage. Also (and here's where I am too self-conscious about the opinions of others) cutting just seemed too weak/crazy and while I accept I have a psychosomatic problem I would loathe to be judged as nuts.
The fear issue being debated here is interesting. Whether the fear or the rage comes first is a moot point to me. One thing I am certain of is I am absolutely terrified of experiencing that over-riding pain and I am angry that I have lost so much precious time lying on my back feeling sorry for myself.
I do realise now that my pain is not coming "out of the blue", that there's an emotional element at work, and that's given me some control, lessened the fear of having a sick, disfunctional body and all this introspection has in many ways been good for me. My wife and kids like the new guy with TMS much better than the old guy with the useless back. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2011 : 07:03:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
You misstated slightly my position with regard to pain sufferers. I don't think they all have anxiety disorders...My mother-in-law fixed her sciatica pain with posture work in a few weeks.
What I actually said was that you believed "that all psychogenic pain is caused by anxiety disorders". I certainly assume you believe that actual physical injury causes pain. But to help clarify, do you believe there are other psychologically caused pain syndromes (aside from anxiety disorders)?
quote:
You have coined the term "distraction syndromes." I'd like to hear more about that.
Schechter actually uses the term Distraction Pain Syndrome, though I only learned that after I stated using "distraction syndromes" - I think it just kind of makes sense in context so I'm not surprised to see similar terms used. I adopted it because of both my hesitation to fully take up all the TMS ideas and because of the similarities with self-harming and the literature on avoidant coping strategies. I use "distraction syndromes" without the word pain because I feel there's a strong relationship between pain distraction and other distraction related coping mechanisms.
quote:
Also, you didn't answer a question I posed to you in a prior thread about how you can conjure pain into existence as a choice when the alternative seems to be suffering some emotional discomfort. You state you are pain free, so how does this work?
I'm not sure whether your "how" is querying the technical mechanism by which I do this or if it means "how on earth could you choose this?" ?
Technically (if that's what you're looking for), that's a bit like asking "how do you lift your arm to raise your hand". But perhaps it would clarify to say that usually it's not a "choice" any more than it's a "choice" to scratch an itch. Even some cutters are cutting themselves before they realize it, but they obviously figure out their part in the action pretty quick. Now that I more clearly see what's going on I can actually choose consciously to focus on and magnify pain. Whether good or bad I can now do that I don't know. How biologically do I do that? I don't know...how biologically do you conjure an image of your grandmother in your head or create an itch just by thinking about it?
If you mean "how could you choose pain over discomfort" - it's really that initially low pain is better than the intense emotion. Then it becomes a pattern that can be destructive if out of control. It's like a scabby wound (yep, I've actually got one right now). I know I shouldn't scratch off that scab - it makes the thing bleed and risks infection. But evolution and experience combined tell me (a minor anthropomorhipzation) that this behavior (scratching) is usually beneficial (got rid of the bugs in the old days, usually just stops an itch)...so I do it. Sometimes I don't even see myself do it...I just realize I've picked off the damn scab. (OK, even talking about that made me scratch)
I'm not always pain free, but am usually free of distraction related pain. I get the usual physical and stress related pains of different sorts, but I generally know if I'm taking them and using them as a distraction.
quote:
Again, our correspondence indicates that yours is a unique experience, markedly different from all others whose experiences I've read about or heard firsthand.
Actually there are a lot of stories just on this site where people list their particular emotional issues and their avoidance strategies. I'm not sure if those are the stories you say you don't believe or if you just read them differently?
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Edited by - alexis on 03/11/2011 08:44:49 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2011 : 07:36:31
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quote:
Originally posted by maldon
What I hated so much about my TMS was the bolt of electric agony that came 'out of the blue' and put a halt to my life for a week. I admit that I have seriously considered whether controlled self-harming would stop the sciatica pain that is so debilitating but what put me off was the thought that perhaps I'd have to keep upping the pain dosage.
This is what I find interesting about distraction and pain. You can use pain to distract from other issues, or use other things to distract from pain. The distraction from pain area is actually a huge field of research that might be interesting if you ever deem the sciatica to be physical in nature (or just unbearable). I think the ability to distract is a very powerful tool, just one that can get out of control
quote:
Also (and here's where I am too self-conscious about the opinions of others) cutting just seemed too weak/crazy and while I accept I have a psychosomatic problem I would loathe to be judged as nuts.
And this is one reason I have been very hesitant to mention the connection between cutting and "TMS" - I know this is a relationship a lot of people won't want to accept. I only, and hesitantly, mentioned it now because some people seem a bit unclear on what distraction really means. I hope mentioning this hasn't turned people off.
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The fear issue being debated here is interesting. Whether the fear or the rage comes first is a moot point to me. One thing I am certain of is I am absolutely terrified of experiencing that over-riding pain and I am angry that I have lost so much precious time lying on my back feeling sorry for myself.
I think it's all a bit chicken and eggy. Personally, though I believe that distraction is (or has been) the primary issue for me, I have pains that are both stress and "physically" induced (they are all of course ultimately physical). But those in themselves aren't usually so bad, rather it's when I pick them up and magnify them as a tool of distraction that I get myself into trouble.
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My wife and kids like the new guy with TMS much better than the old guy with the useless back.
Whatever the psychological mechanism at work in your case, its good that knowledge of at least part of what's going on has worked for the best. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2011 : 11:39:22
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Alexis,
I don't think we'll resolve our disagreement on this subject by going back and forth. My story and yours are here for public consumption, and if someone identifies with them and gets help, all the better.
I want to add some flesh to what you asked earlier that I barely gave mention to in my earlier answer. I think most here are here either because their first or worst chronic stress symptom was pain and remains so. It's little different from adopting the religion you were brought up with or political persuasion. It's just that here pain reigns supreme, whereas malaise, twitching, headaches, stomach problems or dizziness may prevail on other sites. We want support from those whose suffering has been similar.
There is a concurrent thread here just now that asks people to list their symptom combos, and the list is identical to the list on anxiety sites, which is identical to the Sarno "equivalents." The presence of more than one symptom alone blows away distraction theory for me because one is surely enough to keep your attention.
And just to clarify what you are calling distraction: If you are using distraction to mean "avoidance," then you and I are quite in agreement. You didn't seem to believe that before, as you clearly stated in prior discussions with me that you noted a pattern where your symptoms moved around in a clear effort to distract you, which of course, was just a perception rather than proof that part of the brain was seeking to keep you focused on your body instead of your troubles. Now it appears to have evolved into something you can control. I can't, and I don't need to. I suppose I'm lucky that I haven't relapsed, but I don't have any discomfort regardless of the craziness I live with frequently. I hope you can get there as well.
I visit here to offer reassurance and hope to people. I don't like seeing people suffer needlessly. I initiated my responses in this thread to gird the thinking of someone who believes he has found his path out by focusing on his fear of the symptoms. I'd rather focus on that as debate our experiences and opinions, as the former has more value to others, in my opinion.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 03/11/2011 11:45:51 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2011 : 12:45:00
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Alexis,
I'm somewhat surprised you're buying into the distraction theory. It just seems so much more direct, to suppose we magnify our pain...that is worry about it and fear it in a way that's more extreme than most people...for reasons that to me seem self-evident. That is, because we're fearful people with concerns about sickness, incapacity, and death.
Again, it just seems an unnecessary interpretive step to suppose we're trying to distract ourselves from something. Is that thing we're theoretically distracting ourselves from even more painful than own mortality? Is rage really that horrible? I don't know. Maybe for some it is. But even it is, we then have to introduce all thpse subconscious processes we can't observe or measure in any reliable way...
In the end all we can do is bring our own experience to bear along with our own powers of reasoning. There's no doubt in my own mind, or at least no reasonable doubt, that I worry about my various symptoms because I fear not being able to run/workout or play the piano, and because more fundamentally I'm afraid of illness and death.
I'm guessing that these issues aren't as bothersome to you then? |
Edited by - art on 03/11/2011 12:46:07 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2011 : 12:51:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
The presence of more than one symptom alone blows away distraction theory for me because one is surely enough to keep your attention.
Do you think that my co-worker who just last week freely admitted to both working and socializing to distract from his father's recent death is an impossible being because he is using more than one distraction? This happens all the time, I'm sure to people you know. People in pain in hospital have used as many distractions as they can think of to avoid the pain.
That said, I don't perceive as an "equivalent" everything that Sarno sees as an equivalent (at least not in all cases). Much as cutting is used to distract both from anxiety and depression, so I believe is psychogenic pain used. Here pain may work as a distraction from the psychological conditions, rather than those conditions being equivalents.
Your disbelief in the experiences of others reminds me of an anecdote from a psych professor of mine years ago. This man specialized in sleep research and had a student who didn't ever recall a dream. When confronted with the subject of dreams in daily life, and, more particularly in academia, he flat out announced that people were making it up. After all, how could they be watching movies in their heads when he couldn't even imagine such a thing? And yet people who have dreamed for thousands of years have known full well they experienced dreaming despite what a few nay-sayers like this might think.
I've fallen into this trap too. When I first heard (around this same time) of lucid dreaming I didn't believe it. I'd never experienced conscious, let alone controlled, dreaming. I knew that only a few people claimed to have experienced this, and frankly I thought there was a good chance they were making it up. Fortunately, I didn't say this publically, but what I did was sign for a project in which I actively studied how to lucid dream. And what did I find? Lucid dreaming was a very real phenomenon in which the brain could do things I never imagined, in which I learned to do things I never imagined.
What I learned from that was to be very cautious about doubting the experiences others report. You notice that I have never once called into doubt your experience of your pain as anxiety. Maybe its easier for me because I've experience that as well, and have spent a good deal of time learning to discern different sorts of pain. Nor have I ever doubted that you have not experienced distraction pain. How am I to know? There is wide variety in the human mind and how it works, and while there's a lot of self-deception, there's also a degree of variety you probably can't imagine.
Your answer keeps coming back to doubts about the reported experiences of myself and others. I can no more prove to you what I see, feel or think than I can prove to you that I dream. |
Edited by - alexis on 03/11/2011 12:56:47 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2011 : 13:12:07
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Hi Hillbilly,
I don't think you answered these 2 questions (I noticed you calle dme on one you didn't think I'd answered from a previous thread, so I hope you'll humor me here)?
1. Do you believe there are other psychologically caused pain syndromes (aside from anxiety disorders)?
2. Actually there are a lot of stories just on this site where people list their particular emotional issues and their avoidance strategies. I'm not sure if those are the stories you say you don't believe or if you just read them differently?
quote:
And just to clarify what you are calling distraction: If you are using distraction to mean "avoidance," then you and I are quite in agreement. You didn't seem to believe that before, as you clearly stated in prior discussions with me that you noted a pattern where your symptoms moved around in a clear effort to distract you...
I can't imagine I used the word "effort" here but if I did it was an idiomatic anthropomorphization. As stated above I believe that distraction reactions are learned behaviors. I don't think the brain actually makes any complex plans or plots, though those terms may be useful as one says in casual conversation that pain is "your body trying to tell you something" - just an expression.
As for recovery, I'm very happy wher I am and in no way feel bad about allowing myself to feel pain briefly when confronted by the death of a family member. This is a choice of just what kind of "bad" I want to feel at the time. I'm glad that you recovered, but question the motivations behind your carefully framed well-wishes. In return let me say that I hope one day you can achive the understanding of the diversity of human experience that I now enjoy. Nope, not trying to be subtle.
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2011 : 13:15:41
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Hi Hillbilly,
I don't think you answered these 2 questions (I noticed you called me on one you didn't think I'd answered from a previous thread, so I hope you'll humor me here)?
1. Do you believe there are other psychologically caused pain syndromes (aside from anxiety disorders)?
2. Actually there are a lot of stories just on this site where people list their particular emotional issues and their avoidance strategies. I'm not sure if those are the stories you say you don't believe or if you just read them differently?
quote:
And just to clarify what you are calling distraction: If you are using distraction to mean "avoidance," then you and I are quite in agreement. You didn't seem to believe that before, as you clearly stated in prior discussions with me that you noted a pattern where your symptoms moved around in a clear effort to distract you, which of course, was just a perception rather than proof that part of the brain was seeking to keep you focused on your body instead of your troubles. Now it appears to have evolved into something you can control. I can't, and I don't need to. I suppose I'm lucky that I haven't relapsed, but I don't have any discomfort regardless of the craziness I live with frequently. I hope you can get there as well.
I can't imagine I used the word "effort" here but if I did it was an idiomatic anthropomorphization. As stated above I believe that distraction reactions are learned behaviors. I don't think the brain actually makes any complex plans or plots, though those terms may be useful as one says in casual conversation that pain is "your body trying to tell you something" - just an expression.
As for recovery, I'm very happy where I am and in no way feel bad about allowing myself to feel pain briefly when confronted by the death of a family member. This is a choice of just what kind of "bad" I want to feel at the time. I'm glad that you recovered, but question the motivations behind your carefully framed well-wishes. In return let me say that I hope one day you can achieve the understanding of the diversity of human experience that I now enjoy. Yep, just trying to emulate your level of subtlety. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2011 : 13:36:26
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Alexis,
Are you seriously attempting to paint me as someone who doubts that people don't do all sorts of things to avoid thinking about their troubles? Please! I've done that kind of thing today. That isn't what we're discussing, and you know it.
So, now I'm the equivalent of the pedant academic who doubted something someone said because he lacked the capability of understanding it. I have never said I don't believe what you are telling me. I've asked some very pointed questions that you have chosen not to answer, and pointed out differences in your own description of your experiences. This isn't to make you into a liar. This is to help me understand.
Edit: As to Question 1: I don't know. Never heard of any.
Question 2: I'd have to be presented with a story to comment specifically.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 03/11/2011 14:44:09 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2011 : 10:52:33
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I'm guessing you won't be sharing your place of honor anytime soon TT. I think Alexis is wrong, but she's smart as a whip and a good debater. I doubt she's taking any of this personally.
As to cutting, that's obviously a conscious behavior that to my mind doesn't have a lot to do with TMS. I mean, I drank myself into oblivion for many years before I finally sobered up, and there's no doubt it was an attempt to distract myself, however temporarily and ineffectively, from my psychic pain. In this regard, cutting and alcoholism seem to involve a meaningful equivalence, but seem to me fundamentally unrelated to TMS. |
Edited by - art on 03/13/2011 10:53:17 |
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FEAR!!!
