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teachme
9 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2011 : 09:15:19
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Recently I had a major epiphany. For the past 6 years I've had terrible back pain. I mean excruciating pain and I'm only at the tender age of 23. The pain started when I was 17. How could this be? I'm young, I workout, I eat properly. Fast forward 6 years later after physical therapy, chiropractors, back doctors you name it. I finally came across Sarno's book, "Healing Back Pain". While reading the book, I felt almost instant relief. I could literally feel the tension melting away, my muscles relaxing, and the pain evaporating. It was incredible.
A couple months later I noticed I still had lingering back pain but thought nothing of it. From Sarno's book I knew it could take a while for the unconscious to accept the concept of TMS. More months went by, I noticed the pain was still lingering and sometimes even becoming more intense. As my frustration grew I decided to go back to the drawing board to find a solution. Why would my pain not relinquish itself?
I re-read Sarno's book multiple times, watched all Youtube videos related to TMS, read success stories, researched TMS forums, and even went to a local TMS doctor. At the end of the day I would consistently conclude the same answer. Repressed emotions were causing fear and anger which was perpetuating my pain.
This is all good and plenty except for the fact that I have re-iterated the TMS concept a million times!!! I have accepted that rage and anger have somehow initiated these symptoms. I have talked to my unconscious mind, ignored my unconscious mind, and exhausted my conscious mind by reminiscing the past. While learning about TMS we consistently read about our repressed emotions, so I set out trying to find an event or events in my life that I was repressing. Again, no relief. Time went on and everyday I kept looking for an answer, researching the internet throughout all hours of the day. My symptoms grew and soon my scalp became tense, my hair began to shed, and anxiety was at all time high.
One morning I woke up and read an article that focused on fear. It hit me like a lightening bolt. All this time I kept trying to pound the concept of TMS into my mind, kept focusing on the actual concept, the repressed emotions, the anger, the rage. The thing is, our mind already has this information. We understand it, this is why after reading Sarno's book most of us feel at least some relief or at least an unfamiliar sensation. It is my belief that this is due to a reduction in FEAR. As soon as you read Sarno's book, your fear of structural abnormalities and life long pain has been significantly reduced. It is the fear that fuels TMS and supports it's perpetuation. Sure anger, rage, repressed emotions and all of these issues could have been the initial cause but without fear TMS has no gasoline left in it's tank.
Whether or not you realize it, if you still have lingering pain it is because somewhere in your mind you also have lingering fear. This fear is then causing doubt and destroying your belief in TMS. I have found that it is almost impossible to figure out what events and emotions are causing your pain and the good news is, it's not necessary. If you really ask yourself do I have fear I think you will find the answer to be true. We all fear something in our lives and TMS will utilize this fear to ignite itself. Once it ignites, it becomes a viscous cycle. Not only do your old fears exist but now you have new fears generated simply due to the symptoms of TMS.
The new focus should be on your fear and acknowledging it. Understand, that your fear is the remaining factor that is causing doubt in your mind. Doubt of the pain being psychosomatic. This fear and doubt may be more apparent to others. For me personally, I completley and wholeheartedly believed in TMS. I couldn't understand if my belief system was so strong why was my pain just as resilient. It because the fear creates doubt whether it's a large or small amount is irrelevant. Size doesn't matter. If there is even a speck, TMS is able to continue. Once I shifted all my focus to fear I worked on telling myself that there is no reason to be afraid. I would explain that fear is causing doubt and once I removed my fear my body would return back to normal. This new simple thought process completley eliminated my pain.
I truly hope this helps someone out there who has still been unable to eliminate their symptoms. I have been searching for the final answer for a year after learning about TMS. I truly think that fear should be made a much larger focus of the concept. There is no need for psychotherapy, becoming aware of repressed emotions, and different mental exercises. Simply, understanding that fear is running this machine will eliminate the pain and return your body to a completley normal and healthy state.
Thanks,
Jordan |
Edited by - teachme on 03/06/2011 09:28:03 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 11:57:36
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All well said, and I agree completely. Squares with my own experience over the last 5 years. It's not about understanding every last subconscious impulse and conflict. It's not even about somehow "convincing" oneself more completely.
It's about reducing the fear. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 14:34:22
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| Great insight, Jordan. I think you are on to something. It certainly rings true for me, as fear is my greatest conscious enemy. But I'm already aware of this fact and simply telling myself there is nothing to fear doesn't quite do the trick for me, though it helps. Your being only 23 might help as for example, you probably don't yet have the existential fears that aging brings. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 15:08:27
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Boy that's the truth, wrld. I was an anxious guy back then, but different issues. I really felt pretty immortal..
The good old days...
I really have come to the same conclusions as you and Jordan. That it's all about removing the fear. Not so easy at times, but even reducing some of the fear helps. |
Edited by - art on 03/06/2011 15:09:08 |
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teachme
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 16:21:12
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Alexis, I believe fear in both the conscious and unconscious are the reason TMS exists. Unlike Sarno's theory where the unconscious is in a state of rage, I believe the unconscious is scared to death. I believe all of a persons worries, fears, and negative emotions for whatever reason cause the body to react the way it does.
I'm also not completely sure I believe the pain is used as a distraction. If this is the case, it's a very poor way of coping with our issues. The other theory I've seen mentioned before is that part of our brain has not evolved sufficiently. I believe the same way a structural abnormality or wound alerts our brains that something is wrong, our body produces the same pain to alert ourselves of emotional issues. Whatever the reason, it's irrelevant in combating the pain. I think fear itself can almost be considered a lack of evolving. If you truly think about fear, there is absolutely no reason for it in any situation. I would say the only exception to this might be as a child when your learning the dangers of life. This could include the example of preventing a burn by putting your finger in a flame. Even in this situation fear is unnecessary as pain should be enough of a reason not to want to touch the flame again.
Think about anything that makes you scared or nervous such as public speaking, sky diving, failure, success, embarrassing yourself, aging, anything at all. Why should we need fear? It only limits and weakens us. It's an old, outdated human function that I have found absolutely no purpose for.
Anytime, I recall being fearless I performed better, could think clearer, and felt overall better. Even fear from aging as mentioned by Wrldtrv is purposeless. There is no advantage. If anything fear makes you age quicker. I have seen many people literally 3-4 times my age who workout and lift heavier weights then I have ever been able too. It's not because they are superhuman or have better genetics, it's a state of mind. I believe some people are born with it due to their personality type and then their others whose personality is much more prone to fear and worry. I have a friend who fears absolutely nothing. He's has never had a worry in the world and because of this he will most likely never have a serious case of TMS or TMS at all.
I also agree, just telling yourself not to be afraid is easier said then done. At the same time it should be the main focus. I would suggest to re-read Sarno's book and wherever he say's to think about anger and rage, try replacing it with fear. For me it made much more sense. Also, think about everything you've been afraid of through out your life including your TMS symptoms and then ask your self why? Why am I afraid? Tell yourself how powerful the human body is (which is true) and then re-iterate the fact that fear is pointless. We can make good choices without fear. My recommendation is just to think about it, if you cannot relate to Sarno's theory of anger and range change your perspective and focus on Fear. |
Edited by - teachme on 03/06/2011 16:37:21 |
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teachme
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 16:46:27
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| Just another food for thought...in Sarno's book he recommends getting back to a normal active lifestyle. You might consider why this helps so many people eliminate the pain and what would this have to do with the repressed emotions. It has nothing to do with the repressed emotions that cause anger and rage but instead it's a method of telling your mind that your not fearful. You are no longer afraid and by breaking the barrier of fear your breaking your minds process of "TMS". |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 18:01:26
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quote:
Originally posted by teachme
Unlike Sarno's theory where the unconscious is in a state of rage, I believe the unconscious is scared to death. I believe all of a persons worries, fears, and negative emotions for whatever reason cause the body to react the way it does.
I think for a lot of us this is largely true, but I am very hesitant to generalize to others from my own experience, expecially as I have seen great variability. Even in myself I think there are multiple causes, even if fear was big.
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I'm also not completely sure I believe the pain is used as a distraction.
If you aren't talking about distraction I think you're talking about something that isn't quite TMS (since distraction is really a core of Sarno's theory). Nothing wrong with that - Sarno could be wrong or he could be wrong for you. But I think we have to recognize some core elements to the theory, and without the distraction component your talking about some other type of somatization, like anxiety or AOS or something that really isn't quite TMS. Somatization theories have been around for at least a couple of hundred years and distraction is actually the only newish thing Sarno brought to the table (and even that isn't entirely new).
Heck, half the time I'm not talking about TMS, at which times I use slightly different terminology.
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If this is the case, it's a very poor way of coping with our issues. The other theory I've seen mentioned before is that part of our brain has not evolved sufficiently...Think about anything that makes you scared or nervous such as public speaking, sky diving, failure, success, embarrassing yourself, aging, anything at all. Why should we need fear? It only limits and weakens us. It's an old, outdated human function that I have found absolutely no purpose for.
I actually don't agree here. Risk-taking behavior significantly impacts life expectancy. A healthy fear of death keeps people from sky-diving, speeding, risky sexual behavior or drug abuse...and those choices impact life expectancy (just check with any actuary). The point at which one feels fear has a broad normal range, but life without any fear is like life without pain - short. And low levels of fear are often correlated with criminal behavior. Most hear need to diminish fear significantly, but getting rid of it altogether I fear may be another dangerous perfectionism.
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Anytime, I recall being fearless I performed better, could think clearer, and felt overall better. Even fear from aging as mentioned by Wrldtrv is purposeless. There is no advantage.
I think you're talking about very specific areas, like public speaking, or something like sports. But if you don't fear enough to keep you alive to procreate, then you are at an evolutionary disadvantage. And it's essential that parents fear for their children, or they are unlikely to continue the genetic line. Maybe I'm taking you to literally? When you say your friend is "fearless" has he really told you he experiences no fear of death, aging or exclusion? Because that's actually a common trait in sociopaths, but not most other normal, healthy people.
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If anything fear makes you age quicker.
That's one thing I agree is generally good not to fear too much. But on the other side I see people who, for instance, take up riding a motorcycle in their 40s or 50s when reflexes are starting to fade (just a fact). Now I think motorcycles are great for the environment and am not saying not to do this, but a parent who takes up risky behaviors and dies on the road or on a mountainside has put their children at a disadvantage. You don't want to raise children in a risk-free bubble, but neither do you want to fearlessly dangle them over balconies or sit them down in front of crocadiles (to pick two well known examples). I loved the crocadile hunter, but he's a good example of where relative fearlessness can lead.
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I would suggest to re-read Sarno's book and wherever he say's to think about anger and rage, try replacing it with fear. For me it made much more sense.
If I recall Sarno mentions that rage is the main culprit he's seen, but that other emotions can cause this issue too, and I just don't see fear as the issue for everyone.
Also, for me (and I've read others) fear and rage are often exclusive; I can substitute one for another. I don't want to be afraid? I intentionally let myself get mad.
Anyway, I basically agree with you as I was saying in my first post that fear is very important. I just caution against assuming that because fear is the issue for you, and to a large extent me, that it is for everyone. I think in fact that emotions are really very complex, and the fact that we want to sum them up as "fear", "rage" or "sadness" is just our simple human brains trying to get by in an emotional world far too complex for our level of understanding.
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Edited by - alexis on 03/06/2011 18:05:21 |
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teachme
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 18:27:06
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quote:
Originally posted by alexis
I actually don't agree here. Risk-taking behavior significantly impacts life expectancy. A healthy fear of death keeps people from sky-diving, speeding, risky sexual behavior or drug abuse...and those choices impact life expectancy (just check with any actuary). The point at which one feels fear has a broad normal range, but life without any fear is like life without pain - short. And low levels of fear are often correlated with criminal behavior. Most hear need to diminish fear significantly, but getting rid of it altogether I fear may be another dangerous perfectionism.
Alexis, I'm sorry but respectfully I couldn't disagree more with almost all of your statements. I think you took everything I said way to literally. I mentioned sky diving and you mentioned how risk taking behavior and drug abuse severely impact life expectancy. This wasn't the point I was trying to get at all. Of course taking more risks such as sky diving and drug abuse decrease your life expectancy. My point was the fear that goes along with these activities isn't required. What advantage is there to the fear? If your going to jump out of a plane or go on a roller coaster, fear might exist but if you really think about it, it's pointless. Either way your going to experience the activity. Also, you mentioned life without fear is life without pain. Again, I disagree. Have you ever gotten a bruise and felt pain? Did this pain also accompany fear? The answer would be no. If you have always had fear along with pain then that's a different story entirely unless of course were discussing TMS.
In regards to the distraction theory, I don't know the answer to this but at the same time I don't believe the answer is required. I have heard from many people including myself who didn't relate to the distraction theory yet were cured. I think the most important point of the TMS concept is to be aware that the pain is psychosomatic. I do agree with your point that it is possible other emotions are at play but to state that everyone who has TMS is unconsciously in a state of a rage, takes a leap of faith. What proof is there that unconscious rage is the culprit? I think this was an idea that one of Sarno's colleagues concluded. To me it makes much more sense that fear is the ultimate perpetuator especially if your typically calm person.
For some people, just being aware that the pain is psychosomatic and not structural reduces the fear enough to eliminate the pain. For others, I believe they may need more awareness and for me focusing on internal rage was helpless. I felt no anger. Once I acknowledged fear is when my body began to let go. Anyways this is just from my experience and my two cents but if the focus on anger and rage is what worked for you or anyone else then I would surely say to stick with it. In addition, I would tell everyone to stay open minded.
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Edited by - teachme on 03/06/2011 18:41:48 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 19:26:31
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quote:
Originally posted by teachme
I mentioned sky diving and you mentioned how risk taking behavior and drug abuse severely impact life expectancy. This wasn't the point I was trying to get at all.
I know it wasn't the point you were trying to make - but it's a point I felt you had ingored in stating that fear was pointless and that humans don't need it to make decisions.
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My point was the fear that goes along with these activities isn't required. What advantage is there to the fear? If your going to jump out of a plane or go on a roller coaster, fear might exist but if you really think about it, it's pointless.
Exactly - *IF* you're going to jump out of a plane it makes no difference. Fear is what keeps us from doing these things long enough to reproduce. But on the other hand, if you fear too much you also won't be successful enough to find a mate with whom to reproduce (or to dare to take the risk at the sperm bank). But it's a balance. You need some fear. It would certainly be great if we could have fear before making the decision to jump out of a plane and discard it once we have to do it - is that what you mean? It would be nice if humans could be fine tuned to this level, though I suspect we might be pushing the limits of human nature. Or do you really mean ALL fear is outdated?
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Also, you mentioned life without fear is life without pain.
Actually what I said is "life without any fear is like life without pain". I was making a comparison to a well studied medical condition in which people (children...they rarely make it to adulthood) don't feel pain. As you mentioned, fear is needed to keep children from burning themselves. Pain is needed for the same reason. My point is that we aren't all that different from kids...without any fear at all we would likely kill ourselves quickly, or at least behave in a manner leading to social ostracism and financial harm. Even the most logical of us just aren't that rational and still need these emotional queues.
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In regards to the distraction theory, I don't know the answer to this but at the same time I don't believe the answer is required. I have heard from many people including myself who didn't relate to the distraction theory yet were cured.
I fully agree with you. I suspect that distraction is not a major component for many on this board (though I do think it a genuine problem for many others like myself). And I agree that even if it is a part of someones problems, knowledge isn't necessarily important to recovery (though that is a code part of the Sarno theory). My statement was just a general issue of terminology about which I may well be wrong (on language and terminology issues democracy generally rules).
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I think the most important point of the TMS concept is to be aware that the pain is psychosomatic.
Perhaps the term TMS, if it survives, will carry that meaning. I actually don't use the term very often myself because it really describes a cluster of ideas only some of which I agree with. But the distraction component seems the least represented elsewhere, so if I was going to keep the term around, I personally would keep distraction in it. I would doubt though that a term defined by a non-psychologist with weak to zero research will ever get picked up by the psychological community. At best it will maybe be humored like the Myers-Briggs tests. (which are super fun to play with anyway)
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I do agree with your point that it is possible other emotions are at play but to state that everyone who has TMS is unconsciously in a state of a rage, takes a leap of faith. What proof is there that unconscious rage is the culprit? I think this was an idea that one of Sarno's colleagues concluded. To me it makes much more sense that fear is the ultimate perpetuator especially if your a calm person.
I agree there's no proof and his focus on rage is over zealous. But I think it is testable using the same methods used to test blind sight. It just hasn't been done.
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Anyways this is just from my experience and my two cents but if the focus on anger and rage is what worked for you then surely stick with it.
Actually I've never focussed exclusively on rage nor bought into Sarno's conceptualization of the unconscious. As I mentioned in both posts believe that fear was a big issue for me. I merely caution that assuming fear is behind it all may be making the same error as assuming rage is behind it all. |
Edited by - alexis on 03/06/2011 19:53:16 |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 20:00:17
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| Regarding the distraction part of the theory, it seems the TMS theory falls apart without it. The whole point of symptoms is distraction. Now, this distraction could be from rage, as Sarno speculates, or fear, as Jordan says. But both can serve as distractions; in which case, the distraction theory remains intact. I don't see where Jordan is really throwing it out. The only difference between rage and fear is that, unlike pain, fear can serve as both a cause and a symptom (unconscious fear begetting conscious fear). |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 15:18:43
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I don't buy the distraction theory either. It's a convenient way to understand psychosomatic pain, but there's simply no way to test the hypothesis.
There's a scientific principle called Occam's Razor which means that the simplest explanation of a given phenomenon is the one that should be adopted until evidence accumulates to the contrary. Those explanations that call for many assumptions should be selected last...
It just seems much more simple to suppose that stress (often fear) affects the body/mind in a way that more or less directly causes pain, rather than supposing the existence of a rather complicated strategy on the part of the subconscious....which is after all nothing more than a construct. The subconscious can't be seen, or weighed, or measured in any scientifically conclusive way...
Too many assumptions. Occam's Razor. |
Edited by - art on 03/07/2011 15:21:12 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 19:20:53
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quote:
Originally posted by art
It just seems much more simple to suppose that stress (often fear) affects the body/mind in a way that more or less directly causes pain, rather than supposing the existence of a rather complicated strategy on the part of the subconscious....which is after all nothing more than a construct. The subconscious can't be seen, or weighed, or measured in any scientifically conclusive way...
The problem is that what "seems simple" is highly subjective (the main problem with Occam's razor). If your experience is similar to mine (that pain is only one method of distraction among many more obviously behavioral) then the distraction theory is much "simpler" in explaining all.
Interestingly, Occam's razor itself cannot really be tested even when formulated into a theory such as "simpler theories are more often right". How would you judge the simplicity of a theory? "Satan created dinosaur skeletons to deceive humans" is arguably every bit as "simple" as the theory of evolution (in which I believe, just to be clear). That's why so many people believe the whole Satan thing though...they want simple answers. That's human nature though, not a law of the universe. Calling on Occam's razor is like saying your political views are "common sense" - anyone can say it to support their cause.
And while I don't necessarily believe that Sarno's understanding of the subconscious in correct, it is not accurate to say it isn't measurable. I refer again to blindsight, in which people are "seeing" without consciousness (measurable by laboratory responses) but also to new technologies which can "see" anxiety before the subject experiences it.
As for Sarno and distraction, I don't really understand why you or teachme would find Sarno interesting at all. His science is weak, his psychology outdated...the work in anxiety disorders done by hard core researchers is far more compelling and interesting. If all you're talking about is anxiety, I just don't see Sarno has anything to offer. The only interesting thing at all in Sarno is the distraction theory - if it doesn't line up with your experience (you have your own very personal and repeated evidence) just what in Sarno is really worth while? It makes much more sense in that case to pursue anxiety theories for your own conditions.
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Edited by - alexis on 03/07/2011 19:27:25 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 19:32:23
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I won't debate your point about what's more or less simple in this case. It seems obvious to me, but if not to you then that's fine too. Just to say though, simplicity of hypotheses can be quantified mathematically, though certainly not by me. I barely passed high school algebra
Sarno has been invaluable to me in helping me understand that my various pains are generally not structural, and that I can by the simple expedient of not worrying so much, make them go away, or at least reduce them substantially. That also seems obvious to me. I really don't see why that would be a puzzlement to you.
At first I bought into the whole package, accepted that rage was the issue and that acceptance and understanding of same was required to reduce my pain. But over time I began to understand that really, all that was required of me was that I stop fearing whatever it was that was hurting. In effect that's what I was doing all along, only now I could understand it as a much more simple transaction...a more direct cause and effect..
Edit: Just to add Alexis, with respect to blindsight, you're conflating a primitive sense mechanism with a subconscious apparatus that can strategize... and purposefully select different parts of the body in which to induce pain.
That's one smar and complicated construct.
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Edited by - art on 03/08/2011 05:46:43 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2011 : 05:46:12
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quote:
Originally posted by art
Just to say though, simplicity of hypotheses can be quantified mathematically, though certainly not by me.
You can only count variables if you can define them and put boundaries around them. That's the problem here - in most real world cases, such as complex human brains in a social context, we aren't talking about something as (perhaps deceptively) simple as the number of molecules in a vat.
Instead we're talking about complex entities that are not just difficult to quantify and divide as variables, but conceptually impossible. How do you list out and count the "causes" of a teen's drug use? Is "peer relations" a countable entitiy or are all peers individually countable entities? You can get good predictable models out of this data, but as far as measuring something you can call "complexity", that's still going to remain subjective and bound by context. You can alter your models to look "simpler" with few variables, but that's not altering reality, just a matter of practicality. If you could count each classmate, or even each discussion or soundwave or whatever, as a seperate variable you would, and you'd get better results. The more complex model would win. This same argument applies to talking about thoughts, brain regions or neurons...it's all how you break it down.
A lot of things "seem obvious" that aren't - like (to pick a relevant example) that pain is real and physical. Believing something just because its "seems obvious" is always a bit risky, though how it seems will certainly play a part in most, if not all, belief. I think being conscious of the subjectivity is impotant.
quote:
Originally posted by art
Sarno has been invaluable to me in helping me understand that my various pains are generally not structural, and that I can by the simple expedient of not worrying so much, make them go away, or at least reduce them substantially.
I guess really the benefit to Sarno then is his popular writing style and ability to reach us when the researchers, who at least on the anxiety front, are saying the same thing, but just aren't writing in an available style. I'm certainly not saying that anyone shouldn't read Sarno or benefit from his ideas and writing, just wondering if conceptually there's anything other than distraction he offers that isn't in mainsteam anxiety research.
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Edited by - alexis on 03/08/2011 05:55:08 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2011 : 05:58:45
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I majored in psych as an undergrad, but that was back in the late 70's. So I've been a long time away. Sarno's contention that back pain and the like is often psychosomatic was a revelation to me, and of tremendous personal value.
Likewise, the forum has been of great aid and comfort to me.Just as importantly it gives me a chance to help others. I've never, this interaction excepted, been made to feel anything but entirely at home despite my personal thoughts regarding Sarno and the subconscious.
By the way, regarding blind sight, I added this to my reply above..
"Just to add Alexis, with respect to blindsight, you're conflating a primitive sense mechanism with a supposed subconscious apparatus that can strategize... and purposefully select different parts of the body in which to induce pain.
That's one smart, complicated construct.
As to anxiety that registers before the subject is aware, this too is as primitive as it gets. It's a long way from an emotion we share with lizards to supposing we've a subconscious mind that can make plans and strategize in quite clever ways... |
Edited by - art on 03/08/2011 07:10:06 |
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Forfeet
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2011 : 14:04:48
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quote:
Originally posted by alexis
As for Sarno and distraction, I don't really understand why you or teachme would find Sarno interesting at all. His science is weak, his psychology outdated...the work in anxiety disorders done by hard core researchers is far more compelling and interesting. If all you're talking about is anxiety, I just don't see Sarno has anything to offer. The only interesting thing at all in Sarno is the distraction theory - if it doesn't line up with your experience (you have your own very personal and repeated evidence) just what in Sarno is really worth while? It makes much more sense in that case to pursue anxiety theories for your own conditions.
Alexis,
What helped you clear up your pain, if it wasn't Sarno's theories?
I, like you and others here, do not adopt all of Sarno's theories hook, line, and sinker, but have found his overall concept a great springboard toward my rethinking about my pain and what that pain really is-at least not a structurally incapacitating injury. It has also helped me to be here and to read others, such as the other doctors' articles in "The Divided Mind" and Schubiner, to name a few.
You have mentioned in-depth anxiety research? Is that what ultimately helped you? Would you mind mentioning the names of some of the research or their publications. I would be very interested in reading them and seeing what I can apply to my own pain, especially if it can give me more complete relief than I've gained so far. Although, I have made great strides compared to where I was before reading Sarno and others' work. Thanks.
Forfeet |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2011 : 17:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Forfeet
Alexis,
What helped you clear up your pain, if it wasn't Sarno's theories?
It was in part Sarno's distraction theory which fit my own experience, and in part the experiences of others, and in part many other things I read tangentially related. I don't think my own experience is pure anxiety disorder; there appears to be/have been a distraction component which is doesn't fit with the straight forward autonomic reactivity theories.
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I, like you and others here, do not adopt all of Sarno's theories hook, line, and sinker, but have found his overall concept a great springboard toward my rethinking about my pain and what that pain really is-at least not a structurally incapacitating injury. It has also helped me to be here and to read others, such as the other doctors' articles in "The Divided Mind" and Schubiner, to name a few.
I too found his work a great springboard. But having read more in the last years it seems like the only thing that's really different is the distraction stuff.
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You have mentioned in-depth anxiety research? Is that what ultimately helped you?
I mentioned the anxiety research because I think it would be more applicable than Sarno to people who have non-distraction syndromes. While I've found it of some help, it was not central, rather distraction was.
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Edited by - alexis on 03/08/2011 17:42:27 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2011 : 18:00:49
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quote:
Originally posted by art
I majored in psych as an undergrad, but that was back in the late 70's. So I've been a long time away. Sarno's contention that back pain and the like is often psychosomatic was a revelation to me, and of tremendous personal value.
Likewise, the forum has been of great aid and comfort to me.Just as importantly it gives me a chance to help others. I've never, this interaction excepted, been made to feel anything but entirely at home despite my personal thoughts regarding Sarno and the subconscious.
I agree there's a big value in both of those - the initial learning experience and the community of people sharing the same, or similar, experiences. I guess what I'm really asking is "Do you consider yourself to have an anxiety disorder or something else, different, that you might call TMS?" Because what you and teachme describe sound like very straight-forward anxiety disorders and I'm wondering if for you there is any difference. Because I would love to have something as common and easy to read about (in good studies) as an anxiety disorder - it just doesn't fit and I'm stuck with "TMS" as the next closest thing.
quote:
By the way, regarding blind sight, I added this to my reply above..
"Just to add Alexis, with respect to blindsight, you're conflating a primitive sense mechanism with a supposed subconscious apparatus that can strategize... and purposefully select different parts of the body in which to induce pain.
I'm comparing, not, in any common use of the term, conflating. If people can respond to one thing they are unaware of in the brain in theory they might be able to respond to another. But no, I don't think that the brain is plotting nor do I buy into most of Sarno's ideas of the unconscious. I do, however, think the ideas are theoretically testable.
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As to anxiety that registers before the subject is aware, this too is as primitive as it gets. It's a long way from an emotion we share with lizards to supposing we've a subconscious mind that can make plans and strategize in quite clever ways...
Not disagreeing. We're really talking about two things here - subconscious emotions (Which I think may exist) and subconscious strategizing (which I think would be simple at most). Again I emphasize that I don't support Sarno on this, but I think some of what he says is both possible and testable.
That said with regard to subconsious strategizing, I do write code of which I am not very aware only to find it complete and working. This isn't long bits of code, maybe 40 or 50 lines, but it's done and works and I honestly have no idea what I was thinking. Some part of my brain outside of normal consciousness did this - and it was more than just driving home without paying attention...there was a plan and a result.
Now, I don't really think that's what's happening with a distraction syndrome. I think it's simple learned behavior. Doing the "other thing" be it watching TV or feeling pain "works". You get possitive feedback (not feeling the emotional pain) and you continue to do it. No subconscious strategizing, just a learned set of distracting behaviors which include pain and pain focussed behavior. |
Edited by - alexis on 03/08/2011 18:06:13 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2011 : 07:12:31
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Alexis,
I struggle with these competing ideas myself. I'm a freelance writer and there's no doubt that my best writing just seems to come from some place outside the usual realm of conscious, analytic type thought.
I honestly don't know if there's some part of the mind/brain that operates in the way Sarno supposes. It's in many ways an antiquated notion, but who knows?
My main point is the whole TMS thing seems to work without having to appeal to some insofar as anyone knows, imaginary, or at least imagined apparatus..
By reassuring ourselves that our pain is caused by the mind (rage according to Sarno) we substantially reduce our fear. in my experience, it's the reduction of fear that's the essential element. It wouldn't matter if I told myself (and believed) that my pain was caused by an evil spell and that the evil spell won't work any longer as long as I stop fearing it. I've seen over and over through the years that as soon as I find a way to just stop worrying about XYZ symptom, it goes away...
Not surprisingly, it's my opinion that most of the blood, sweat, and tears people shed over journaling, and trying to get a handle on their subconscious rage is unnecessary..at least insofar as their psychosomatic pain is concerned...
IN answer to your question, yes, I do suffer from an anxiety disorder, although I dislike the word "disorder," as if I'm some sort of broken appliance...
But, there's no doubt my anxiety is heightened by my TMS, which of course only strengthens the TMS...Quite the vicious circle. Understanding the basic nature of psychosomatic pain has helped tremendously. Now I'm working on turning that vicious circle into a virtuous one. And I've definitely made some progress in that regard..
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Edited by - art on 03/09/2011 07:27:24 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2011 : 13:09:13
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Teachme and Art,
I think you are 100% correct in that the fear of the symptom is the perpetuator of the illness, regardless of the purpose. I don't believe a syllable of distraction theory, unconscious in a blind rage, nor in seeking Freudian psychotherapy when all else fails.
I have known or worked with more than 100 people who suffer from anxiety conditions, be they OCD, panic disorder, health anxiety, or GAD. They all have experienced some form of muscular pains, migraines, headaches, diarrhea, etc. for many, many years. Chronicity came when the stress became chronic. They were in a problem that required rumination for months, worked with a person whose personality placed them in daily conflict that they were unable to resolve, financial issues, marital or relationship issues. Some are so debilitated with the fear of the symptoms that they cannot function in normal life.
The common factor among all of them (and I once counted myself in that category as well) is fear of the symptoms. And I'm not just saying they sit around in constant fear of symptoms, but they avoid doing things that conditioning has taught them raise their level of discomfort above what they can easily ignore and function well. Therefore, in their minds, the activity is the problem and not their thinking. Activity = symptoms, and since symptoms are bad, they should be avoided.
I have read through the success stories here, and the one thing that accompanies all of the stories I have read (at least the ones I believe, but that's another topic) is that they stopped seeing their condition as permanent or even chronic, but a result of the way they were living their mental lives and made changes. They re-engaged themselves in their activities and welcomed the symptoms to tag along if they wished or hit the road without fretting or worrying if tonight they would end. This overall relaxation of the mind eventually ends the alarm bells because there is nothing to cause the alarm, which is a virtuous cycle, to quote Art. You get better and better until you are back to normal.
Yes, I think the hardwired fight or flight is stuck in the on position when you have TMS or anxiety, whichever you prefer, and the switch is in your hands to turn it off, albeit gradually. I did it, and so have many others I've known.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 03/09/2011 13:35:56 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2011 : 13:54:29
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Hillbilly,
Superb post in my opinion, and not simply because you agree with my position. My fight or flight mechanism is definitely stuck in "on" and I know when it started and why. It's taken me many years to begin to understand the real nature of my difficulties. The symptoms don't matter, because the dynamic is always the same...symptom X leads to worry and fear which leads to a worsening of symptom X which leads to more worry and fear.
In some ways I think I've had to get sicker in order to get well. This upcoming 60th birthday of mine has really thrown my whole system into overdrive, or even greater overdrive. But on the positive side I have the sense that for the very first time I can really get a handle on this stuff..
Ultimately the victory is over fear, not symptoms. Eventually, we all do get something genuine, something that can and perhaps will kill us. We are after all mortal. When that day comes, I want to be ready. I don't want to live in fear any longer, and I don't want to die in fear either. In the end, it's the only freedom that matters.
Thanks for your wonderful, encouraging post. |
Edited by - art on 03/09/2011 13:56:57 |
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FEAR!!!
