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Hilary
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
 Posted - 03/10/2010 : 06:12:37
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Hi seven,
It's John Kabat-Zinn you'll want to discuss that with - not me!
Hilary |
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RageSootheRatio
Canada
430 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 10:49:10
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What Jon Kabat-Zinn teaches and calls "mindfulness meditation" may not be the same thing that a Buddhist might be referring to. While there may be an "official" encylopedia definition, how a word is used and understood in the real world is not always the same. Not sure what Dr Schubiner means or teaches when he uses that word, but it is possible he knows a lot about what HE calls "mindfulness meditation" but very possible he knows little about Christianity (another word which means many different things to many different people!) and so didn't feel qualified to answer the question. While he COULD have said "thanks for your email but I don't feel qualified to answer that question, but invite you to listen /read the materials and see for yourself" he chose not to reply at all, which is not so surprising, but was understandably disappointing to seven.
Mindfulness meditation may come from a particular historical past, but by the time it has "evolved" through different western practitioners, each with their own "agenda" it could well be called something else, and original practitioners of mindfulness meditation might well be offended by this new thing! However, it is probably not a "trademarkable" phrase, by this time; therefore anyone can call anything "mindfulness meditation". |
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hschubiner
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 06:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by seven
quote:
Originally posted by jerica
that's odd seven. He sent me an email the same day, and I honestly wasn't even expecting one.
Hi jerica,
To be honest, I do not believe Dr. Schubiner wants to answer my question and therefore he just didn't reply. I believe he is skirting the question I posed.
I read on Dr. Schubiner's site he had a new book coming out with a instructional Mindfulness Meditation CD included. I email Dr. Schubiner and ask him about any possible conflict between Mindfulness Meditation and Christianity.
I ask Dr. Schubiner if he would write a few lines in an email sharing his few of a possible conflict. He did not reply. I waited and wrote again. No reply.
I wrote a total of 5 short emails asking to briefly share his view of the potential conflict. He absolutely refused to give me the courtesy of a response on the subject but I know from all the TMS message boards he usually does reply to emails. As a matter of fact I read sevral replied to email from Dr. Schubiner just last week to individual on the TMS Wiki site.
Of course if one is not a Christian there definitely is no conflict and this post would be completely irrelevant.
"Meditation" is a component of many religions, and has been practiced since antiquity but it is also practiced "outside" of religious traditions. There are secular methods of meditation.
Different meditative disciplines encompass a wide range of spiritual or psychophysical practices that may emphasize different goals—from achievement of a higher state of consciousness, 'enlightenment' that some Eastern gurus teach one can obtain liberation from life and death by meditation, a state where man is freed from the endless cycle of personal reincarnations, to greater focus, creativity or self-awareness, or simply a more relaxed and peaceful frame of mind while in activity.
Mindfulness Meditation was developed by Siddhartha Gautama(Buddha). According to the encyclopedia Wikipedian, the origin of *Mindfulness Meditation* is from Buddha's philosophy and practice. Mindfulness Mindfulness is the 7th aspect of the "Noble Eightfold Path" of Buddhism.
"The Noble Eightfold Path," Buddhist describes the way to the end of suffering, as it was laid out by Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha). It is a taught as a practical guideline to ethical and mental development with the goal of freeing the individual from attachments and delusions; and it is taught that it finally leads to understanding the truth about all things. Together with the "Four Noble Truths" it is said to constitute the gist of Buddhism. Great emphasis is put on the practical aspect, because they teach it is only through practice that one can attain a higher level of existence and finally reach "Nirvana."
Definition: Buddhist Nirvana: Nirvana is believed the supreme state free from suffering and individual existence. It is a state Buddhists refer to as "Enlightenment". It is the ultimate goal of all Buddhists. The attainment of nirvana *breaks the otherwise endless rebirth cycle of reincarnation.* Buddhists also consider nirvana as freedom from all worldly concerns such as greed, hate, and ignorance, etc.
So basically my question to Dr. Schubiner is, can Mindfulness Meditation be separated from the Buddhist religion, philosophy and doctrine and practiced in a secular context.
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hschubiner
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 06:10:06
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Hello out there, this is Dr. Schubiner and a friend of mine told me there was a thread about me and either answering or not answering emails. I always answer my emails, but there was a problem with a link on my web site so that certain emails never reached me. We have changed that link so now emails go directly to my hschubiner@gmail.com address. I apologize to the person who felt slighted by me. It was entirely unintentional as I never saw those emails. I don't read the TMS Help Forum on a regular basis.
So, please email me again. I think the question had something to do with the relationship between Christianity and mindfulness, which is seen as coming from the Buddhist tradition. That is a great question and one that has been posed several times over the 16 years that I have taught mindfulness. In brief, my answer is that mindfulness practice is clearly a part of all religious traditions because at its core, it means to wake up and pay attention to what is happening right now in the present moment. I think about Christian rituals that ask people to pay attention to the blood and body of Jesus; powerful mindfulness practice from my point of view. I learned mindfulness and teach it from a secular point of view (my original teachers were Jon Kabat-Zinn and Saki Santorelli). I see absolutely no conflict between mindfulness practice and Christianity or any other religion. But I'm happy to answer any more specific questions!
Best, Howard. |
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LuvtoSew
USA
327 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 19:47:44
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| Dr. Schubiner , so impressed you posted. I live near you and have been thinking of taking your course. I am going to order your book first. Anyway just inpressed with your response. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2011 : 08:50:14
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quote:
Originally posted by seven
quote:
Originally posted by Hilary
seven,
Mindfulness meditation doesn't teach you about nirvana, or about 8 paths, 7 aspects, 3 french hens, 2 turtle doves or anything else. It ONLY teaches you to be present and to start paying attention to what's going on - right here, right now.
"The relevance (of mindfulness) has nothing to do with Buddhism...but has everything to do with waking up and living in harmony with oneself and with the world."
I don't mean to appear pugnacious here Hilary, but I don't believe your statements are completely accurate in regards to Mindfulness Meditation. You posted "The relevance of mindfulness meditation has nothing to do with Buddhism...," for one.
According to the Encyclopedia Wikipedian, Mindfullness Meditation was developed by "The Buddha" (Siddhartha Gautama) and implemented as the 7th aspect of the "Noble Eightfold Path" of Buddhism with the GOAL of bringing the practitioner to the highest state of Nirvana (one with god or god-realization)
Mindfulness Meditation was taught by Buddha, and Buddhists today, as a practical technique to ethical and mental development with the goal of freeing the individual from attachments and delusions; and it is taught that it finally leads to understanding the truth about all things. Together with the "Four Noble Truths" it is what constitute the gist of Buddhism.
* I will gladly post a review of Dr Schubiner new book and instructional Mindfulness Meditation CD
Mindfulness meditation was not developed by the Buddha. Mindfulness was practice by followers of Hinduism and Jainism hundred if not thousand years before Buddha. The first 6 years in his quest to find the way to enlightening he wandered around the country studied under many teachers and learned and practiced mindfulness meditation with them.
Also, to a true buddhist, Buddhism is not a religion. Buddhist don't believe there exist an almighty god or a creator of the universe. They don't care about who or what created this world, this universe. They believe there are many planes of existence and Nirvana is the plane that they all want to be at and following the teaching of the Buddha will lead them there. Religious are man made. Institutionalize buddhism as most people know today is man made. The Buddha don't tell people to worship anyone, including himself. He didn't want people to build million dollars temples, he didn't want people to worship his statue,... (I think Jesus didn't neither)
To a true buddhist, Buddha is just a great teacher who shown us the way to free ourselves from pain, sorrow, suffering... forever. We respect him but we don't worship him or any God. |
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head2toe
United Kingdom
37 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2011 : 12:17:51
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| I also found Dr Schubiner to be an extremely generous and compassionate man. At a time when I was at an extremely low ebb, he gave me access to the online course at no cost for a limited period so that I could see if I thought it would suit me. He also gave me encouragement and hope which is something I will never forget. The way I see it, he is totally dedicated to helping people heal their pain. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2011 : 10:51:28
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While I understand how it would be helpful to get an "official" TMS diagnosis from an MD, for most this is not needed. If you've seen a regular physician and he can't find anything, or if what he finds is something that you know from reading Sarno's books is usually benign, (which is to say something that many people have without symptoms), and your personality fits the profile, that's really all the evidence you need in practical sense...
I would not drive 5 hours unless I absolutely felt I had to..
Or perhaps you can find a TMS doc willing to give phone consults...
Also, bear in mind there are never any guarantees anyway. TMS docs are as fallible as any other doctor. Ultimately, this is a leap of faith that gets easier with time and experience. |
Edited by - art on 10/10/2011 10:53:39 |
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ennio
28 Posts |
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Emailed Dr Schubiner
