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miche
Canada
283 Posts |
 Posted - 01/11/2010 : 10:00:35
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| Food for thought, thank you Dave. |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 05:47:53
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Dave
You Wrote :
I believe the immune system is a big target of TMS. The brain may manipulate the immune system in subtle ways to manipulate body chemistry in such a way to introduce symptoms.
Having to deal with this issue at this time it made me wonder:
In Sarno's theory TMS is thought to be a defense mechanism so what if it is the immune system itself that creates TMS ? after all isn't the immune system part of the autonomic system and doesn't work on its own to protect us without our conscious intervention ?
It seems to me that the constant fatigue is a way for the body to tell the conscious mind that the system is overloaded with something and it's time to slow down and get some rest and fix the problem (what ever it may be) while the mind is busy trying to override it like it thinks it can and thus creating a breach in the system a virus can take advantage of easily.
The human body proved to be able to handle a lot of abuse but the worst of them all is definitely self abuse which is a perfect internal conflict for TMS to thrive on and what better choice than fatigue to express it could it find as long as the real cause is not addressed?
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 12:11:50
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quote:
Originally posted by catspine
In Sarno's theory TMS is thought to be a defense mechanism so what if it is the immune system itself that creates TMS ? after all isn't the immune system part of the autonomic system and doesn't work on its own to protect us without our conscious intervention ?
This is certainly plausible. Dr. Sarno believes the brain reduces blood flow to areas of the body to induce symptoms. However, I believe this may be too simplistic an explanation, and maybe the immune system is more involved.
quote:
It seems to me that the constant fatigue is a way for the body to tell the conscious mind that the system is overloaded with something and it's time to slow down and get some rest and fix the problem (what ever it may be) while the mind is busy trying to override it like it thinks it can and thus creating a breach in the system a virus can take advantage of easily.
Well, that seems a bit convoluted to me, but you never know. Personally I think chronic fatigue is similar to depression and serves as a distraction. When just want to rest or sleep, there is no risk of the unconscious rage coming to the surface. As with depression, psychological intervention is required for a 'cure' despite the multi-billion dollar industry that serves to treat the symptoms. |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 14:55:53
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Thanks for your input Dave
I agree with what you say about the need for psychology to address depression .
Although I was able to heal twice using Dr Sarno’s theory I still think it’s a miracle somehow (I don’t know what else to call it ) that in regard of the complexity of our physiology a simple thought (if it is the right one at the right time and hits the right target) can turn TMS around. I find that amazingly simple and incredibly complicated at the same time : it can not really be explained it in a truly objective scientific way but at the same time it ‘s been proven that it works well enough to fix the problem .
Because of the different approaches I also used simultaneously or complementary to his method I do believe in what ever works to do the job. Consequently I also believe now that the body knows more than the mind does when it comes to healing ( I can explain that in detail if anyone is interested)and the contribution of the mind is a big asset of course but not always essential as I discovered. Maybe I’ll be lucky many more times as long as I believe it will work again . One thing is for sure there is a mindbody connection and our beliefs are key to healing . if the pharmaceutical industry finds a way that works well to help with this I may consider it and maybe use it but it's not my first choice because of their concerns with profit making .
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2010 : 01:03:23
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Anyone interested in following XMRV research news can do so at http://www.cfids.org/XMRV/default.asp#info
A discussion regarding differences between the study published in Science and the PLoS One paper that did not find XMRV in CFS patients can be found at http://www.cfids.org/cfidslink/2010/010603.asp
Other CFS research news is also available at http://www.cfids.org/archives/research-review-issues.asp
There is also some CFS research info at http://www.hhv-6foundation.org/hhv6cfs.html and at http://med.stanford.edu/news_releases/2007/january/montoya.html
These two pages make reference to a trial by Dr. Montoya using anti-viral medications to treat CFS. There was significant improvement among patients who originally had a sudden onset of CFS with a flu-like illness.
Although many people seem to view Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia as essentially the same, there are differences in the diagnostic criteria, so if you're looking for FMS research you would want to look for an organization that tracks that specific type of research. (In my personal experience with CFS and FMS, I feel they are not the same thing.)
Also, experiencing chronic fatigue does not necessarily mean you have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, you need to meet the other criteria in addition to having the fatigue. I mention that because I think it would be helpful to readers if people who've had success treating fatigue with Dr. Sarno's method would specify whether you just had chronic fatigue or actually met the diagnostic criteria for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, as there are many causes of fatigue.
While I've had good success eliminating or controlling most of my Fibromyalgia symptoms, as well as anxiety, using Dr. Sarno's method, I have not had any success whatsoever on my symptoms of chronic fatigue, chronic sore throat and sore lymph nodes, post-exertional malaise, and frequent otherwise-unexplained fevers. I stopped watching the research on CFS and FMS when I first learned of Dr. Sarno and TMS theory, but I've gone back to watching the CFS research since I have not been able to influence those symptoms with mindbody work.
I find it interesting to read the experiences and thoughts of others here, so thanks to everyone for sharing. |
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kilton
38 Posts |
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kilton
38 Posts |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 19:45:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wavy Soul
Has anyone looked at the news reports of a new discovery that a virus (also present in prostate cancer) is present in 98% of chronic fatigue sufferers (and very few people without the syndrome).
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/28412/1066/
This article says that of the 101 CFS sufferes
quote:
The U.S. team found that 68 of them (about 67.3%), tested positive for XMRV genes. That is, they “identified DNA from a human gammaretrovisus, xenotropic murine leukemia virus-related virus (XMRV).”
Was the 98% figure somewhere else? |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 20:05:23
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Contaminated samples is a little embarrassing, but I always think of the sheep brain mix-up as one of the research fiascos that kind of puts things in perspective:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1684696.stm
(ok, that and the "cold fusion" announcement)
I've no idea whether some CFS/ME is caused by a virus...seems likely it has multiple causes. I doubt the suggestion by some thought that TMS would work by allowing viruses in for a distraction - it seems too far between trigger and effect to be evolutionarily likely. And unlike some of the mostre instant and creative distractions we could whip up on the fly, that's something I think would have to evolve over generations. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 11:32:23
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I saw this study some months ago myself, and all I can say is I wasn't in the least surprised. Even if the correlation is one of association, it's clear that something in the physical realm is going on. Whether this is replicated by other studies, I'm still guessing eventually they'll find something.
In my experience, CFS is unlike most other reputed psychosomatic illnesses I know about in that fighting the syndrome, challenging it, defying it, doing what's most painful and hard, only makes it worse for the majority of sufferers. I've not known that many with CFS, but they've all been courageous fighters, not the usual self-obessessed TMS'ers like me...
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 16:18:22
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Even if CFS symptoms are due to a virus, it is still the chicken and egg scenario.
Perhaps the virus is common in many people (like h.plyori bacteria blamed for ulcers) but produces symptoms in only a percentage of those cases.
This could be explained by TMS manipulating the immune system in a subtle way so as to allow these organisms to produce symptoms.
What would be interesting is a companion study in people NOT afflicted with CFS symptoms, to see if the virus exists in these people as well. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 17:57:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
What would be interesting is a companion study in people NOT afflicted with CFS symptoms, to see if the virus exists in these people as well.
That study, and all like it that I know of, did use a control group of asymptomatic people and found only a small number with the virus. Most of these published studies follow standard practice which includes these kinds of checks.
The main flaw here being the contamination. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 19:18:57
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I still think it more likely that a physical cause will be found for CFS, but It seems pretty clear at the very least there are certain, let's call them psychogenic illnesses, that don't offer the usual TMS type two way street. In other words, we might be able to think our way in, but we can't necessarily think our way out. Nor can we fight our way out by challenging the symptoms. This seems significant to me if true, and argues that whatever the cause, real physical changes have taken place. To call such an illness psychosomatic would be inaccurate and unhelpful.
I'm interested to know how many CFS'ers have substantially improved on the forum (meaning those who've had years of genuinely crippling fatigue, not just feeling "tired" all the time.
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Nor
152 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2010 : 06:58:00
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| We're forgetting something vital here. There are physical causes for most TMS symptoms. Sarno explains it simply: He says the mind looks for a weakness or deformity to prey on for distraction. If you have a propensity for something or pre-existing injury/deformity/etc, the psyche will find it. If you treat it medically, the mind will find something else instead. |
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chronic fatigue virus
