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positivevibes
204 Posts |
 Posted - 03/12/2009 : 14:17:28
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If anyone else on this board has thyroid disease (particularly hypothyroid, Hashimoto's, etc), I have a question for you.
Have you noticed any sort of correlation between your TSH level and your TMS symptoms or the amount of pain you feel?
I have Hashimoto's. I'm having a hard time keeping my TSH in my regular normal range lately. It is usually around 1.0 (my doctor wants me to stay between 1.0 and 1.5). At my semi-annual checkup this week, it was 2.52, which is higher than it should be. It has been yo-yo-ing for the past year and I have not been able to get it down into the 1.0 range without suffering heart palpitations and anxiety (because it was getting too far into the "hyper" range). So I keep upping my dose of Synthroid slightly, then having to back off to a lower dose. It is becoming very frustrating.
I have noticed in the past few weeks that my legs sometimes feel "heavy" when I walk up stairs (this is usually a sign for me that my TSH is going astray, and it disappears when my TSH goes down into the 1.0 range). So I wonder if my higher TSH is also interfering with the ability of my back to feel totally better.
There is clinical evidence that if your TSH isn't normal, it can interfere with the way your muscles and nerves respond and heal. Has anyone found this to be true, firsthand? Just wondering. If so, I'd be interested to hear your story. |
Edited by - positivevibes on 03/12/2009 14:19:04 |
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marsha
252 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 18:31:58
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I have thyroid disease. At first I was hyperthyroid which made me have a very rapid heart beat and kept me skinny (if you have to suffer skinny isn’t that bad). After two treatments of radio active iodine my thyroid quit working and I became hypothyroid. I take synthroid. Don’t have any problems with the medication. I have my levels tested every year at my physical. If I notice aches and pains I will go and have a blood test and very rarely will it be my thyroid medication that is causing the problem. The only time I ever noticed real pain was when my thyroid was overactive.
Dr. Sarno says that thyroid disease may be TMS. .but it is one of those TMS symptoms that needs to be treated with medication in my opinion.
Marsha
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positivevibes
204 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 18:53:17
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I agree that regular thyroid disease -- non-Hashimoto's or non-Graves Disease thyroid problems (the type NOT involving antibodies) -- could be part of TMS. But unfortunately I have the auto-immune component, which means that my thyroid disease will never go away; it can only be controlled. You don't hear Dr. Sarno saying that Rheumatoid Arthritis, Lupus, Scleroderma, or the other equivalent auto-immune diseases are part of TMS. :-(
It's really common for people to start out hyper and go totally hypo like you did, Marsha. The thyroid gland can be so wacky, and is easily affected by hormonal levels and various changes of life we women go through. Sometimes there seems to be no reason for it to happen. If it starts to get really crazy and you get the radioactive iodine, it's really common to get totally hypo from it.
I do think that stress, and the hormonal balance thrown off by large amounts of constant stress, could contribute to an existing thyroid problem (as with TMS). I don't think it would actually cause one. I think the cause is more of a genetic thing, with all due respect to Dr. Christine Northrup's theories. All the women on my mother's side of the family have auto-immune diseases, mainly thyroid disease. |
Edited by - positivevibes on 03/12/2009 18:57:24 |
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marsha
252 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 21:06:44
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I think there is a genetic component also.
Just another thing to worry about..
marsha |
Edited by - marsha on 03/12/2009 21:07:10 |
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positivevibes
204 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 23:56:31
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I don't really worry about the thyroid stuff because it can't kill me and it won't be a huge problem as long as it stays under control! You can't fight your genetics. At least not now. Maybe in the future, with some sort of gene therapy!
There is a very strong chance that both my daughters will develop thyroid disease as they get older. I have Hashi, but my husband is also "regular" Hypo, so we're both on Synthroid! But at least since I have the knowledge, I can tell my girls what to look out for, and what blood tests to ask for if they ever get to that point.
It would be interesting if some company did a study on whether people felt (or perceived) more pain when their TSH was out of whack. |
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mizlorinj
USA
490 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 07:11:04
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Rheumatoid arthritis and auto immune disorders are discussed in The Divided Mind. I recently I re-read parts of TDM and think it is very good. Esp. the parts where other docs talk about their experiences treating TMS and its equivalents.
The list of ailments TMS docs are talking about is growing. The list other doctors believe have emotional causes is also growing. So I expect the list of physical conditions will continue to grow as the field of psychoneuroimmunology is explored. This is a good thing.
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Edited by - mizlorinj on 03/13/2009 07:12:53 |
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meema
10 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 13:51:40
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I've wondered about the connection between TMS and thyroid, too. I'm hypothyroid, and when I get symptoms like migraine, poor sleep, constant fatigue, which sound very much like TMS, I'll also turn out to have blood work that shows my thyroid hormone levels are low. Maybe my mind is lowering my thyroid function, it's certainly possible, but I kind of think it's more complicated than that, like maybe the effect of the thyroid on the bodymind is similar to what happens in TMS. I'm not a doctor or scientist, so this may be a fantasy of ignorance.
I know there are a lot of people out there complaining that their doctors are telling them their thyroid is normal when they are sure that it's not. I've also read somewhere an endocrinologist joke that "All diabetics are noncompliant, and all thyroid patients are crazy". I know that researching and worrying about my thyroid was a big distraction for me for a few years. I also know I feel a lot worse when my blood levels fall below normal, and I feel a lot better when my doctor subsequently ups the meds.
So I guess to the question of whether low thyroid is TMS, my answer is maybe. Maybe not, or maybe partly. I don't know. I'm really interested in what other people think about it. |
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positivevibes
204 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 19:29:56
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Many doctors not properly trained in Endocrinology can look at a TSH level of 2.9 and tell you that you're normal.(Anything above 3.0 is considered abnormal). That "normal" number used to be 5.0, but it was lowered to 3.0 about 5 years ago!
However, people with thyroid disease (particularly people with antibodies) can be "subclinical," which means that although the TSH level is normal, they have symptoms. A good doctor will treat you for thyroid disease if this is the case -- treat the person, not the lab number. A doctor who doesn't know better will just send you home thinking you're crazy. A so-so doctor will say, "hmmm....let's watch this and get your TSH checked in a few more months." But the point is, if you're having symptoms, it should be treated, not just watched.
I've learned this stuff from having thyroid disease for almost 15 years and reading various books. Mary Shomon's thyroid site (on About.com) is extremely informative, as well.
A lot of hypo symptoms do sound a lot like TMS or Fibro. I remember when I was first diagnosed. I was depressed, my skin was dry, my hair was falling out, my body felt achy in general, and I couldn't lose weight. I also felt really tired all the time and had trouble thinking straight. After being treated with Synthroid, my symptoms gradually went away, but it took almost a year (it takes time to get your body gradually adjusted to the correct dosage).
Lately I have been wondering how much of my problem might be attributed to thyroid...is it enough to just make me more sensitive to pain, so that it takes me longer to stop the pain than a person without thyroid disease? Whether this is true or not, understanding about TMS has been a huge help for me. I'm not trying to use my thyroid disease as an excuse or a cause, I'm just wondering if it makes it harder for me to recover from TMS. |
Edited by - positivevibes on 03/13/2009 19:31:06 |
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simplyfree
20 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 21:57:56
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Thyroid has definitely been an issue with my pain. Once the thyroid was treated my pain tolerance increased but didn't resolve all the pain. I have hypo and take Armour thyroid to get the T1, 2, 3 & 4 that we need. I took Synthroid years ago but I now feel Armour offers more of what the thyroid really needs. There's newly published info on how important T3 is and not just T4.
As for dealing with pain, which has decreased to the point I hardly think of it, I still have to practice what I learned from Sarno. But I feel as though there are still pieces to the puzzle missing. My ongoing problems seem to be with anxiety & CFS while dealing with extreme stress. Some drs treat CFS nutritionally and with Rx and it works. Sarno believes its TMS, so psychotherapy. Which is right? Both?
Btw, thyroid problems can also greatly increase anxiety and fibro. It seems all of these health problems are related but what started it all? Emotional issues? I'd like to get to the bottom of it so I can move on....
"Just cause you got the monkey off your back doesn't mean the circus has left town." - George Carlin
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positivevibes
204 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 22:34:21
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I've thought about trying Armour, but in general I seem to be OK on Synthroid so I didn't want to rock the boat. You know, when you start messing with your thyroid meds it can really mess you up for a while (lack of energy, etc). Plus, I'm not sure if my Endo (who is a terrific doctor) is knowledgeble enough on Armour.
I think that the CFS thing is a tricky subject. For a long time they thought it was part of the Epstein-Barr virus. Not sure what the current thinking is.
Some people think it's a symptom of toxins in the body (a Dr. Hyman I saw on PBS, for example...he apparently wrote a book called UltraMind, where he talks not only about the importance of good nutrician, but starts to talk about toxins in the body causing symptoms). I'm not very convinced about the toxins thing. I know somebody who is into that, and she is always running from doctor to doctor getting all sorts of obscure things tested by all sorts of obscure "doctors". Personally I think she has TMS but I don't know her well enough to tell her about it without insulting her.
Anyway, this Dr. Hyman said something very interesting. He said that you can have a virus in your brain that causes depression and other symptoms. I've never heard of that before and am not sure if I believe it. But of course he swears it's true and has "cured" a lot of people, and has helped autistic children to function better via better nutrician, food group elimination, anti-virals, and doing something (??) to remove toxins from their bodies. I suppose it's all in his book.
I have a friend with an autistic son. She removed several food groups (gluten, dairy, etc) from his diet, gave him specific types of supplements, etc. He did improve to some extent, but now years later the poor kid is still borderline autistic (Asberger's), unfortunately. |
Edited by - positivevibes on 03/13/2009 22:35:47 |
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simplyfree
20 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 23:28:16
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Most mainstream drs stay away from Armour. After doing some research I asked for it specifically and my dr wanted to know why Armour. So I told him. If someone is going to continue treating with Synthroid just be aware of its connection with developing osteoporosis. You may want to invest in some of those supplements like calcium and vit D. Get out in the sun every day if you can and do weight-bearing exercises.
Is it possible that a virus in the brain causes pain? I think it's possible. How does a dr, like Hyman, go about proving it? Results? That would work for a lot of people but not for others. And what might work for one person won't work for another, or the degree of improvement will differ. Similar symptoms can be triggered by differing causes. The same is true with using conventional medicine.
I do believe toxins are a factor in CFS/Fibro. When I was at my worst with pain a few years ago I took grapefruit seed extract and after about 6mos realized I hardly had any pain. I had actually forgotten how bad I had been. Grapefruit seed extract is an anti-fungal, anti-viral and detoxifier. Did it really lessen my pain or did I just think it did? I can't prove it did anything but I haven't had that level or duration of pain since.
If toxins are involved then perhaps they interfere with neurotransmitters in the body which, in effect, are trying to say, 'hey there's something here that shouldn't be here and which the body isn't properly equipped to eradicate.' Most of the toxins in the body are products of chemicals (pesticides are known endocrine disruptors) introduced into modern life in the past 100 years. Our bodies aren't made to detoxify all of these synthetic particles and especially at the levels to which we're being exposed.
So perhaps if these toxins are messing with our nervous systems (anxiety, depression, other disorders), they're also playing havoc with our endocrine and hormone systems, i.e., thyroid, hypothalamus, thymus, pituitary, adrenal, etc., and could produce the symptoms we see in some of these little-understood diseases & syndromes that have cropped up in the past, say, 100 years. Or not.
Personally, I think it's possible.
"Just cause you got the monkey off your back doesn't mean the circus has left town." - George Carlin
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puravida
1 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2009 : 16:58:48
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Wow, that's really interesting to hear that TMS is related to an underactive Thyroid. Who knew?!
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mk6283
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2009 : 00:31:56
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TSH levels in the ranges mentioned above are really too low to explain a majority of TMS symptoms (despite being high for "normal" standards). TSH levels should really be much higher if they are going to explain muscle weakness, etc. I think it would be best to just take your Synthroid or whatever your MD has you doing and to forget about the possibility that your thyroid condition (phantom organic source) is contributing to your TMS (a psychosomatic condition). Good luck!
Best,
MK |
Edited by - mk6283 on 03/18/2009 00:37:57 |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2009 : 20:39:50
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I have not noticed any TMS-induced LBP from my thyroid problem. I do have more tinnitus though, and its pulsatile tinnitus, which means I can hear my pulse in my ear (pretty weird). My TSH is like 0.03, basically zero.
After being mostly well for the last 5 years from LBP I've recently been DXed with Graves Disease (auto-immune hyperthyroidism). This is the opposite of Hashimoto's Disease. Since I've been on the TMS boat for so long I have the impression that TMS is likely involved in GD.
I've been on anti-thyroid drugs for 2 months (20mg methimazole) and a beta blocker (20mg propranolol) to treat the cardiac arrithymia. TMS taught me to be patient, and that has certainly come in handy with GD as it takes months for a course of meds to make a change that can be measured by blood tests. Looks like I will be on meds for a year or two, and there is a 50-50 chance of remission from GD, but it can later reccur (another similarity with TMS, wonderful ;-)
I have no intention of going down the I-131 radioactive idodine path, although I did consent to the I-123 for the thyroid scan and uptake test which was part of the DX.
Anyone else on the GD path I'd love to compare notes. Take care, -Stryder |
Edited by - Stryder on 05/02/2009 20:56:51 |
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crk
124 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 08:26:41
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This is an older thread, but I don't get on the site very often so I am responding late.
I have Hashi's and am using Armour for the past year after 17 years on Levothyroxine. Much better on Armour. (See http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/)
I believe that since our mind is made of chemicals and electromagnetic impulses, thyroid levels as well as diet can definitely influence how TMS manifests itself.
Consider this: Sarno speaks about the unconscious mind being timeless. "Child Primitive" never "gets over it," forgives, or empties her Reservoir of Rage. So how can someone like me, who has defeated numerous TMS triggers and episodes, sometimes be painfree and other times have problems? Life's pressures certainly contribute, but I think I have those all the time. My coping skills, however, fluctuate with monthly cycle and are influenced by diet. I therefor believe that TMS can be caused or influenced by my endocrine health, specifically thyroid but also adrenals and who knows what else.
Likewise, my diet plays into this as well. When I avoid sugar and gluten, and eat lots of vegetables and fruit, grassfed beef, etc. (Paleo Diet, http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html), I am more likely to stay painfree.
In short, what I am trying to say is that it all ties together. My mind seems like it is detached from anatomical concerns, but it is just as physical as my heart or my bones. The rage will always be there but it will not bubble up to a threatening level (thus triggering TMS) unless the brain is struggling in general.
Well, that's my theory. Even if you don't agree, I encourage you to read the STTM website mentioned in my 2nd paragraph.
Good luck, everyone! |
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Question for others with Thyroid disease
