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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
 Posted - 02/05/2009 : 18:07:47
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Hi stanfr, I agree about the it being a similar form of delusion, but I guess I just find delusion so prevalent it's not worth stressing that much over. Not that it never gets to me, but I also find it (and we humans in general) entertaining, and not necessarily as absolutely dangerous as you do. You seem to think the delusions are all negative, but really I think it's all (all our ideas about reality) a bit of delusion...and I don't think there's good research to back up a claim either way on the overall societal happiness level impacts of delusion. And what there is largely supports the deluded.
Aside from the majority who believe in the "power of prayer" (no, not the psychological power) the vast majority also believe in irrational ideas like "free will", primitive notions of matter and the external world and other simplifications. Moral ideas like innate "rights" are popular ones ... or stances dismissing products or activities as "unnatural" -- like there's some Nature apart from which humans stand that is Good. I once knew a bright physicist, rational in his own field, who thought "dark forces" were at work in society.
Free will is my favorite in north america, I've seen it estimated that over 95% of the population believe in what's philosophically called "libertarian free will". People can't hack the alternative (And don't give me quantum theory...even with the Copenhagen interpretation that makes no sense). But I'm not going there. Been there, done that. People are wacky. To be human is to be wacky.
Leave the west and in China it's "Chi". The same person who'll give a discourse on why westerners are so crazy with their silly god concepts will go on about Chi with all kinds of "evidence" that'll make your eyes pop out by its stupidity.
But again, it's human. Some of us are slightly better than others at recognizing our tendencies to simplify and weave stories. Some of us, for better or worse, hold off a little further...at least in a limited sphere. And that's always the sphere we focus on and by which we judge ourselves more rational than others.
But I have yet to meet the purely rational person. That's just what it is to be human. We *have* to simplify. And we have, to some extent, to fill in the gaps. Its just a matter of how and where you do it, but any way you do it will contain a lot of untruths.
And what I think will bring on TMS is believing three really big fallacies:
- that you have the truth
- that truth is good (or makes people happy)
- that humans are somehow more special among the
animals than we really are
Those are biological (largely in the first case) and cultural (at least in the second) prejudices that we as a culture aren't easily able to shake. And I haven't seen any hard core, real, scientifically produced evidence that these delusions are harmful, in any overall societal fashion. They're just more delusions.
And those, I suspect, are some of your own delusions, and, to some extent most of ours. And we cling to them while scoffing at others. Of course our delusions are superior and less silly.
We have evolved this way...not for the good or the bad of society, but as a biproduct of evolution. It just is. And I don't think it's going to change. I've traveled to lots of countries and cultures and I haven't found the "rational" one. No matter where you go, as soon as you start to relax and enjoy the fact that "At least people here don't believe X..." you find that instead they believe unfounded superstition Y and Z which are equally nutty, if less annoying for their novelty. And they'll couch them to defend the idea, saying "'God' is a silly superstition, but Chi is SCIENCE." Seriously, it's always the same.
People are just animals. We're maybe not fuzzy and cute (well, maybe some alien keeping us as pets will find us cute), but we're primitive animals capable only of the barest levels of rationality. The rest is a game we play until we die.
So I guess my recommendation is to embrace the foibles of humanity. Find them entertaining. It's like dogs chasing their tails. Really, we ARE kind of cute if you look at it the right way. And the alternative is to be continuously annoyed.
Intellectually I've understood all of this for 15 or 20 years. But getting it, piecemeal is not the same as really absorbing it into your psyche...letting this reality become part of who you are. It was only when I understood all this above both intellectually AND emotionally that the irritation and annoyances that fed my TMS began to fade. I used to scoff at literature, finding it a waste of time and literary folk a bit fuzzy in their thinking. And then I realized that literature often is a celebration of humanities foibles. And that these authors have, in fact, come to terms with what it is to be human in a way that most of us have not.
So people still bug me. That I'm pretty sure is just human too. But I don't let it drive me for hours a day. I find myself laughing at how silly we all are. I enjoy the humorous parts of normal psychology and much more often accept people for who they are. But this doesn't mean I accept everything or have adopted a new delusion of "tolerance" as god. Beliefs are not all compatible and the world is, and always will be, at war with itself over competing delusions. But not every battle needs to be fought...and even those that do are not as pure and simple as anyone thinks. You're always just fighting from your own delusion...but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. |
Edited by - alexis on 02/06/2009 06:44:02 |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2009 : 14:28:49
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Good points, Alexis. I guess the one "delusion" i insist on holding onto is that there are "truths" and that it's worthwhile seeking them. If i have to suffer with TMS in the meantime, so be it for now!
That's why I get frustrated with attitudes like Weathermans' (hey Weatherman, i know what you mean about the 'last word'  ) because, I imagine that if I really had a firm convicttion in something like astrology, I would bend over backwards attempting to prove it. Put it to test in a controlled experiment, then once you pass the test (a given, of course) you start collecting the billions of dollars you have righfully earned. Action always speaks much louder than words!
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2009 : 15:28:02
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quote:
Originally posted by stanfr
I guess the one "delusion" i insist on holding onto is that there are "truths" and that it's worthwhile seeking them.
I'd call that two separate delusions ... plus you slipped in a third: the soothing delusion that those two delusions are, in fact, only one. 
By "worthwhile" do you mean that could make money off them and be happy? Or something else?
quote:
Originally posted by stanfr
That's why I get frustrated with attitudes like Weathermans' ... because, I imagine that if I really had a firm convicttion in something like astrology, I would bend over backwards attempting to prove it. Put it to test in a controlled experiment, then once you pass the test (a given, of course) you start collecting the billions of dollars you have righfully earned. Action always speaks much louder than words!
But the great thing about astrology is you don't have to "prove" anything to make millions off it!
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Edited by - alexis on 02/07/2009 17:44:08 |
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Logan
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 14:37:19
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I think this conversation is a great illustration of how TMSers can generate a tempest in any given tea pot.
I thought it was an amusing "cocktail" conversation as someone else characterized it and then it got all debate-y.
I don't take astrology seriously, it's just a bit of fun. As an old anthropology professor of mine explained these things, life is so very random and the choices one faces so overwhelming that early humans developed divination techniques to take the pressure off their decision making processes so they could take the timely actions necessary to survive.
I think we all here can empathize with feeling paralyzed by perfectionism, goodism, and other kinds of indecision. If reading your horoscope in the morning helps to focus your thoughts and point the compass needle in some kind of direction - even as you know it's b.s. - then I don't see any harm in that.
Often, I'll read Rob Breszny's weekly free will astrology forecast for all 12 signs and just pick one I like to meditate on for the week. |
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forestfortrees
393 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 14:58:39
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quote:
Often, I'll read Rob Breszny's weekly free will astrology forecast for all 12 signs and just pick one I like to meditate on for the week.
LOL. That's the spirit.
I'm really glad that people were able to have strong disagreements but keep it a debate rather than falling to the level of ad hominem attacks. |
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roxygirl577
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 17:34:36
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I'm a scorpio and yes what you say seems to be true!!!
I even had an astrologer tell me that Scorpios are more prone to hold things in and hold onto the past which in turn causes painful symptoms! |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 19:31:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Logan
...life is so very random and the choices one faces so overwhelming that early humans developed divination techniques to take the pressure off their decision making processes so they could take the timely actions necessary to survive.
I think we all here can empathize with feeling paralyzed by perfectionism, goodism, and other kinds of indecision. If reading your horoscope in the morning helps to focus your thoughts and point the compass needle in some kind of direction - even as you know it's b.s. - then I don't see any harm in that.
Great summary! If someone tries to use this as a reason to wipe scorpios of the face of the earth I may complain, but until then, I say let the cocktail hour proceed. We modern humans are doing the exact same thing in so many ways --that's just survival for our little species. |
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Kristin
98 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2009 : 20:22:53
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scorpio, scorpio rising
I've often wondered and mused about a connection.
I have also lately become aware of what looks like the tendency toward Attention Deficit Disorder symptoms in myself from childhood til adulthood, age 44. Pieces of the puzzle seem to be falling into place. All my life I've been compensating for a deficit of attention, I don't really care if it has physical or mental causes, half an age of coping with the effects of being chronically distracted has taken its toll. I also seem to be ultr sensitive to all sorts of stimuli. Of course it seems logical to explore psychological reasons but also it seems logical to look at a neurological condition that may have always existed within me.
I don't know if add is also related |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 10:52:42
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I wouldnt have even commented on this topic (although i think astrology is far less harmless than has been argued above--think Ronald Reagan, for example!  ) if i didnt think there was a analogous problem with TMS as a subject: as a scientist i often feel extremely frustrated when faced with friends or aquaintances who are clearly suffering from TMS, because i dont have hard science to back up my personal experience, and the vast majority of MDs etc feel it is nonsense (not my assessment--it's Sarno's!).
The difference between astrology and TMS is that astrology can really be easily tested, since by definition it claims to have predictive abilities (thats why it has in fact been tested many times, and fails in every instance!). TMS falls in the realm of the psychologic, and while tests might be developed they would be a lot more challenging to find a good protocol. Unfortunately, the hard science of TMS is in its infancy and precious little has been done to really find out how exactly it works, what are the mechanisms etc. Until those details are worked out, all of us 'TMS'ers are going to suffer--no different than any other uncured disease.
That is the problem i have with mixing astrology anhd TMS--TMS will never be taken seriously if it is associated with numerous other pseudoscientific subjects. That would be a shame. |
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HellNY
130 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 18:18:25
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Stanfr -
First off...are we all scientists for something? Im a research psychologist, Ph.D. in biological psychology, and professor of psychology. Whaddayaknow!
Im going to have to disagree with you here on TMS not being testable. TMS is a theory, yes. But it makes several testable predictions. It is absolutely testable, as testable as drugs for treating chronic pain or any other therapy treatment. Treatment group received TMS treatment, compared to one or more appropriate controls. Outcome measures such as pain and related symptoms can be measured using the Oswestry disability scale or the visual analog pain scale, or many other measures.
The problem is not that TMS is not a testable but rather I would think it would be very hard to attract funding for that sort of study from NIH. |
Edited by - HellNY on 02/12/2009 18:19:16 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 11:49:58
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quote:
Originally posted by HellNY
TMS is a theory, yes. But it makes several testable predictions. It is absolutely testable, as testable as drugs for treating chronic pain or any other therapy treatment. Treatment group received TMS treatment, compared to one or more appropriate controls. Outcome measures such as pain and related symptoms can be measured using the Oswestry disability scale or the visual analog pain scale, or many other measures.
The problem is not that TMS is not a testable but rather I would think it would be very hard to attract funding for that sort of study from NIH.
I've got to agree with Hell on this one. And I'd go a step further...I think describing TMS as untestable is as dangerous to the cause of having it taken seriously as mixing it with astrology could ever be.
There's plenty of science, not under specifically TMS research, that backs up these ideas. Look at anxiety, alexithymia, back pain, tension headache (even bloodflow reduction stuff here), placebo, somatization, anger studies, placebo and mass hysteria research.
For those who want to believe TMS is some unique idea Sarno pulled out of thin air this may not be an option. For those who find those other areas unappealing and want to dissociate themselves, it may not either. But if you accept that Sarno's just a brightish guy who in his practice stumbled on an idea that, honestly, isn't all that new in most ways, you can find evidence all over the place...in research dating back 30 or 40 years. |
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What is your zodiac?
