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herniated heidi
3 Posts |
 Posted - 06/15/2004 : 10:17:46
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I am hoping someone can put my mind at ease. I was reading MBP when on page 73 Dr. Sarno is talks about the MRI study in it he states 52% had bulging disc, 27% disc protrusion and 1% extrusion. (Up to this point I had only briefly looked over my diagnosis as I was trying not to focus on it as recommended ) Then he goes on to state that after being diagnosed with TMS 88% were either completely or suffiently free from pain, 10% were improved and 2% failed to improve. I am now really concerned that the 2% are the ones that had the extrusions. As I have 2 disc herniations and 1 disc extrusion.( L4-5, L5-S1, L3-4 aswell as mild-mod facet athroppathy ) Has anyone else had my diagnosis? I cannot find anywhere that says that a disc extrusion can heal on its own like a reg. disc bulge or herniation all that I can find talks about surgery. I have constant pain in my back at waist level. I have never had pain in my legs or buttocks. The pain I had used to be a dull ache but now it can be a deep sharp pain when I press in on it. I am worried that I have made matters worse by ignoring Drs. ( by not bending properly etc.) I was just begining to believe I had TMS but now I am starting to think I have some kind of nerve damage. Has anyone out there have a disc "extrusion" and are free from pain.
Please help. Thanks |
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goodguy
26 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2004 : 12:25:00
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| The best advice I can give is go make an appointment with Dr. Sarno or another TMS MD. They can diagnose TMS and put your mind at ease. |
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herniated heidi
3 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2004 : 22:11:53
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| Thanks goodguy but that's easier said than done as it costs $850 for a visit. I guess no one else is familiar with my problem and that nakes me feel all the more "alone" |
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JoeW
United Kingdom
61 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2004 : 23:49:10
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I haven't had that diagnosis, but it's probably worth waiting a bit longer before assuming that no one will have some experience.
What I can say is that it is probably worth reading one or both of Sarno's two books after MBP, if you haven't already. In The MindBody Prescription he says:
"It has been my experience that even large extrusions are usually not responsible for continuing pain, though they may cause some pain when they first occur"
The process of believing in TMS is difficult at times, and it sounds to me like you need to give it more of a chance. Remember that reading the books will not cause you any further damage in itself.
Good luck. |
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pault
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2004 : 04:54:50
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| The advice to see a tms Doctor is good advice.In many cases the ins.will pay or co-pay for the visit as a second opinion or examination.You probably paid that much for a t.v, or a car payment.Any price is cheap compared to what you feel!As for not using traditional treatment,are you missing out on the big 7% success record of western medicine?(by their oun account) Sounds like you are letting the tms tool of fear take over.I have similar things wrong with my back in the same area.I have had surgery at the Lahey Clinic only to return to the same problems,several years later. Everyone thinks their case is special,but it's not.If you believe in the system it will work.My back has a three disc problem,I run again after years of lay off,recently moved my entire house with my son,including a piano,safe, frig,etc.No fear,no pain!Think of your back as indestructable,as it is normal to have what you have.The only thing you have to fear is fear itself! read,read,be patient,believe get well soon.It will work as well as You allow it to. Paul. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2004 : 07:19:13
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Heidi, even if you found one or two people on this message board who had the same diagnosis, clinically it would be meaningless.
As for Sarno's statistics, take them with a grain of salt. They are not based on any scientifically accepted study. Even so, it is not logical to conclude that the 2% who did not heal had extrusions. The data does not support this.
There is evidenced that impinged nerves cause numbness, not pain. As for where the pain is, your unconscious mind chooses the precise location of the disc extrusion because it has the best chance to convince you that it is physical. So the sharp pain on palpatation of that area is not conclusive one way or another.
Are the doctors recommending surgery? If not, then you have nothing to lose by treating it as TMS. It is likely that at least part of the pain you are experiencing his psychogenic. I suggest you read Dr. Sarno's latest book and follow the treatment suggestions. |
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April
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2004 : 08:03:24
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Hi Heidi
I feel for your situation and the pain you are in. I haven’t had experience with a disc extrusion wrt TMS and agree with the others that seeing a TMS Dr. to confirm the diagnosis and treatment. In my case, I had been in chronic pain which was only getting worse as were the diagnoses and seeing a TMS Dr. made all the difference in giving me the confidence to work though the pain to get past it successfully. Since resuming abandoned activities is part of the healing, I very much needed assurance that I wasn’t going to hurt myself more. You likely have a lot to gain by approaching your pain as TMS by doing the emotional work outlined by Sarno.
IMO, accepting the TMS diagnosis is part of healing at the subconscious level and doubting it is counter productive. Unfortunately there is only a short list of TMS Drs and most of us that have gone choose one because of geography. I’m not sure which one charges $850, but that’s likely for more that an initial evaluation. Not all Drs charge that much for a diagnosis. I talked to mine over the phone before going in for an evaluation.
Maybe someone more familiar with Sarno’s policies, but you may be able to get an answer to your question about a disc extrusion and TMS by calling his office since he screens perspective patients anyways. I have also heard that Dr. Sopher may give information via email or a phone call.
There is a list of TMS Drs. on this website and another list with TMS info at
http://www.tarpityoga.com/directory.html
I'd definitely want to know that it is not TMS before considering surgery. If it is TMS, you could heal from the pain, but you would still have the disc extrusion.
April |
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Carol
91 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2004 : 20:07:13
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Heidi, I don't have your diagnosis, but I supposedly have a pinched and damaged nerve (L4), confirmed by EMG, which caused all my back and leg pain, plus some other places that the doc said were "referred" pain. It has taken me a long time, and I'm not all the way there yet, but tonight I lifted a 40 lb kayak onto the top of a car - and had no pain anywhere from it. I certainly couldn't do that if I had a "real" injury or physical problem in my back. I had been told by doctors not to lift anything over 5 lbs. You are getting some very good advice from everyone, and I hope you will follow it. I wish I could tell you all the times that I read some little thing in Sarno or other books that made me doubt, but they all turned out to be wrong. Best of luck to you. Do the work and you will be okay.
Carol |
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Suzanne
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2004 : 20:20:03
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Heidi,
I have to agree with everyone else who posted back to you. I supposedly had L4,5, S1 damage, and pinched nerves. I never had numbness. I only have pain, and not in my back.
After 2+ years of 7+ specialists, I found and went to Dr. Sarno. I was reimursed 80%.
If I press on the areas where the supposed disc damage is, I have pain, but that's because the seed was planted in my head.
I know now 110% my problem is TMS. For the first 2+ years, the pain never subsided. After seeing Dr. Sarno, it worsened the next day, for many weeks. But, proof of TMS came when I went on vacation. For 10 full days, ALL my pain in my TMS are went completely away. What more proof did I need? None.
Seeing a TMS doctor is worth every penny. It's far less costly than surgery, and far less invasive!!! And if you find yourself reading the book and "seeing yourself", you might be on your way to sooner than you know.
My TMS diagnosis is mentioned for about 3 sentences in the book. Just read it and try to see a TMS doctor. Ignore the study. You never know what outcome YOU personally might have. There have been some bizarre TMS cases, with "cures", not even mentioned in any of the books.
Go for it. You have nothing to lose but pain. It's worth it to try, and surely worth it before getting cut open! |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2004 : 07:09:20
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| Your message has an underlying theme of panic and hopelessness. You also seem to think that you are the only one who has ever suffered from this type of condition. You might want to look at what personality traits are causing this reaction to your situation and whether or not those same traits are contributing to pain. |
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herniated heidi
3 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2004 : 08:59:17
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Thankyou all so much for replying to me. First I re read the part in Dr. S. book that Joe pointed out to me
> "It has been my experience that even large extrusions are usually not responsible for continuing pain, though they may cause some pain when they first occur"
That part hadn't even sunk in the first time. It made me feel much better after I had re read it and so did all your replies and I definately dont feel "alone" now.
When I was first diagnosed the Dr.sent me for P.T. and gave me NSAIDS but it didn't make any difference. So then he wanted to try steroid injections but I declined. He said if the pain increases then he would suggest surgery. Thats when I started looking for alternative treatments and came accross Dr. S and this message board.
I definately fit the T.M.S. profile. I was so anxious and depressed on Tues but since receiving your replies I feel alot better and I am going to take everyones advice. I am going to call my ins. co. after Iv'e done this to see if they will cover part of the visits to a T.M.S. Dr. I checked out the site Heidi suggested and found that there is one right here in Orlando so I consider my self very lucky.
If it were not for this board I think I would still be in an anxious and depressed state and I can't thank you all enough for your input. 
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JoeW
United Kingdom
61 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2004 : 15:50:56
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That's great to hear Heidi. For some reason, I've been assuming that MBP is Mind over Back Pain, Sarno's first book - doh, it's obviously MindBody Prescription. Glad you found the section on extrusions - I used Amazon's "search inside" feature, which is useful if the index doesn't have what you want.
Good luck again.
PS I think your username needs to change, as it emphasises the physical. Maybe Healing Heidi would be better! |
Edited by - JoeW on 06/17/2004 15:53:22 |
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healing heidi
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2004 : 21:22:08
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okey dokey...another good piece of advice...it's about time for a change..Healing Heidi I will be from now on  |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 16:52:39
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Hi Heidi,
I expereinced an extruded disc segment at L5-S1 9 years ago. At that time I had leg pain, foot pain, sciatica, numbness in the leg and foot.
Its possible that for me the pain was TMS and the numbness was the extruded disc. At the time I knew nothing of TMS, so I wrongfully concluded that all the symptoms were being caused by the extruded disc.
I did see several orthopedic doctors, one surgeon, and I did consider surgery at one time. But since the doctors decided I was in no immediate danger (red flag symptoms) I decided to tough it out and did not have any surgery to date.
Now, of course, I know that the pain part was TMS. An extruded disc segment will not ever heal, but the displaced disc material usually shrinks/dehydrates over time, and may decrease the impingement on the nerves, so the symptoms caused by that can in some cases get much better without any surgery (as in my case).
You should seek medical advice to rule out any serious condition, and if the doctors tell you there is no immediate danger, then you have the option to wait it out.
Now for me 9 years later, I am 95% pain free, and I no longer have any numbness in my leg and foot. The pain free comes from my buy-in to TMS as a cause of pain.
Hope this helps. Take care, Stryder. |
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healing heidi
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 22:02:00
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Stryder,
Thanks so much. You are the only one that has replied that had the same diagnosis as me. You have given me hope. I am in pain daily but take no meds. My prob. is bending, getting up from a chair, leaning etc. I have read 2 of Dr. Sarnos books and I am in counselling. I think I have a long way to go. I am constantly in 2 minds...one telling me it's T.M.S. the other telling me that I've got a structural defect and that if I listen to what the books tell me ( which I have been following) then I might be injuring myself further. It is driving me NUTS. I just convince myself that I have T.M.S and then the voice creeps in and says " just supposing you haven't then you might me doing further damage." Plus my husband has told me that he is sick and tired of me complaining about my back and that only creates more anxiety. I feel really desperate right now as I am so fed up with it all. Sorry to be so negative but I have been in pain daily for 2 yrs. It is with me when I wake and with me with me when I go to sleep. I found a T.M.S Dr. in Orlando where I live but have not been able to get in contact with him via phone or e-mail for over a week so I am wondering if he is no longer in business here. I know I will have a better day tomorrow because you have given me hope and I thank you for that sincerely. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 07:26:19
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quote:
Originally posted by healing heidi
...then I might be injuring myself further...
Exactly what do "the books" say that might injure you? Bending at the waist? Lifing heavy things? Sitting for too long?
The idea that our bodies are fragile and if we are not careful what we do we might injure ourselves is ridiculous. Read Dr. Sarno's latest book, and re-read and re-read the parts where he talks about how strong our bodies are and how it is ridiculous to think we can injure ourselves by doing simple everyday things. |
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Sadiesue
19 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 09:33:33
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Heidi, I don't know if this will help but...
I remember reading in one of Sarno's books that of all of the people he has treated, and it has been thousands, none have experienced a worsening of symptoms from using his method.
I struggle with this too. There is a part of me that still tries to be careful and worries that if I don't do the physical therapy my doctor recommended then I might get worse. But I keep doing the TMS work and try to ignore the pain, and so far, it has been about 3 months, I have only gotten better and have definitely not gotten worse.
I think Dr. Sarno is honest enough that if even some of the people he has treated got worse from following his advice, he would be upfront about it. Or he would probably get sued a lot.
I know it is hard to let go of the mind that says "I must do what the books and regular doctors tell me or I will get worse." I honestly don't think we have anything to lose by trying Dr. Sarno's method. I have heard "regular" medicine's cure rate for back pain is like 7%.
It is hard to let go of the myths that have been perpetuated for the last 50 years or so that the body is fragile, that it is easy to hurt your back, that structural defects are what cause pain, that surgery and physical therapy and medicine will cure you. But these are only guesses. No one knows what causes pain or how to get rid of it. I think it is a good bet to go with TMS and let go of all the old notions.
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Allan
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 20:03:27
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It may be helpful to get a copy of Fred Amir's book, Rapid Recovery from back and neck pain. On page 6, it refers to the Maureen Jensen study as reported in the New England Journal of Medicine 331 (1994): 69-73. The study was the result of analyzing MRI’s taken of patients. Some had back problems, some did not. What was so amazing was that MRI’s of patients with kidney problems, etc. would indicate what appeared to be severe back problems such as protruding discs. In many cases, patients who had these apparent disorders were not even aware of them and had no pain associated with them. One can see how an incorrect medical conclusion can occur.
Allan |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 04:43:27
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Dear Heidi,
I'm presuming you have got MBP. If my memory serves me well ( I don't have my own copy in front of me right now) there is a chapter somewhere towards the end of the book in which Sarno has included the treatment plan of a reader who recovered successfully from his own pain. In fact Sarno has made just one or two additions to this program and it is named after the guy who sent it in.
Anyway, if I remember correctly, this chap says the program works whether you are a true tms believer or just desperate enough to follow it wholeheartedly. I think that most people who believe in the tms diagnosis don't believe in it 100%. However as they get better and better, they start believing it more and more till they perhaps do eventually believe 100%. So go ahead and do the work anyway.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
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disc extrusion...help please!
