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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
 Posted - 03/09/2008 : 20:08:33
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Please note that anxiety is not a TMS equivalent, but TMS (pain) is a symptom of an anxiety disorder.
I have pretty much moved on from Dr. Sarno to try other avenues, including the work of Abraham Low.
I actually spoke to her on the phone and she is really nice. She also does phone sessions that are relatively inexpensive, although I have not set up one with her yet.
This is non Freudian approach to treatment and more Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, something which Sarno would frown upon.
Sarno has got me so far but after over 3 years of using his material I felt I had to move on.
Shawn
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Alpha
Germany
43 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2008 : 21:02:56
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Wow, seems like there is some kind of a revolution going on here, so many people looking into anxiety disorder/CBT all of a sudden.
But maybe it is nessecary, I also feel, that while many parts of Sarnos theory fit me, other pieces of the puzzle are just missing.
I am interested in our investigations in this new area, keep us updated.
Being open-minded and flexible in ones approach to healing is very important, I think its a good thing that people start to look into slightly different explanations and solutions for our Stress-Illnesses.
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As you think, so shall you become. - Bruce Lee |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2008 : 23:14:21
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I would think that anxiety is exemplified by stress, depression, fear etc which is, imo, covered by Dr Sarno's MBP.
And dealing with negative thinking was part of the recovery process too as I understood it. So I assumed Dr Sarno would be in favour of CBT.
Everyone is different - everyone should seek their best path to recovery.
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2008 : 03:37:29
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I also believe that anxiety and depression are ones own creations depending on how they view or react to the world and perceived threats or fears. I think that they become habit for people, then those people seek distractions to get away, then the problem grows, then the anxiety grows or develops into something else (pain?). I'm oversimplifying, but you get it.
CBT is helpful. I saw it with my "OCD" problems. But I was actually encouraged not to talk about repressed things, which made things worse IMO. Anxiety is a big one though. My anxiety used to be outer...you could see it. Nowadays it all went inward and starting messing with my nervous system, which I have proven beyond doubt.
But then it leads to the thought that if I helped anxiety in the first place, would everything else calm down?
As far as people abandoning or moving past Sarno theories, I don't see it because I'm not here often. Is it true? Are people "dropping out" so to speak? Is anyone here "cured" yet? I haven't been updated.
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"Over thinking...over analyzing...separates the body from the mind." Maynard from the band TOOL |
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Alpha
Germany
43 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2008 : 04:17:08
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Hey, just as a little reminder, that there is not only Psychoanalysis and CBT, at least I think, that Primal Therapy is one of the most scientific and complete therapies (yeah and F*CKING EXPENSIVE! :/), so read the take of Dr Arthur Janov and how he explains the cause of anxiety! --> http://www.livereal.com/psychology_arena/whats_the_problem/anxiety_janov.htm
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As you think, so shall you become. - Bruce Lee |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2008 : 06:53:26
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Rose VanSickle does phone sessions and charges $35 per half hour and $65 per hour. She is a very warm and engaging individual and has a very moving story with a dramatic recovery. Her contact info is http://www.pljunlimited.com/pobpom/rose_vansickle.htm
Remember:
What we think determines our emotions.
The body directly responds to emotions.
Therefore, the body's physiology is determined by what you think.
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, if you want to get better, to see the elimination of your symptoms, you will have to change your thinking. There is no Freud here, sorry.
To help you along with this I recommend Dr. Abraham Low's book Mental Health Through Will Training.
Rose VanSickle uses Dr. Low as a basis for her work.
Finally, if something is working for you currently, then stay with it. Why knock success?
Please note, however,that Dr. Sarno's books does not even scratch the surface - and I have read them all many times - of what this material covers. It is an altogether different modality even if some of the words sound the same on paper.
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Edited by - shawnsmith on 03/11/2008 09:15:41 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2008 : 08:11:50
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quote:
Originally posted by alpha
Wow, seems like there is some kind of a revolution going on here
Before you draw that conclusion I suggest you review the history of this forum, particularly the posts of those who have seemingly found that "the" answer lies outside of Sarno's work.
Also, beware of statements such as: "Please note that anxiety is not a TMS equivalent, but TMS (pain) is a symptom of an anxiety disorder." Such statements are simply personal opinions, in this case, from someone who has changed their opinion quite often. It is also interesting that this same statement has just been made by another (former?) member of this forum.
Many view this forum as a place for "purists" where Dr. Sarno is right and everybody else is wrong. I'm afraid these people miss the point.
It is all too common for people to continue their search for magic bullets, probably for the rest of their lives. Sarno is not the answer for some, and if that's what you find, then move on. But some don't move on ... they feel it necessary, for whatever reason, to come back here and vent. I find it fascinating.
In my opinion, it's not about whether Dr. Sarno is "right" or "wrong" or whether or not the scientific details of his theory are 100% accurate. For me, it's about one thing: did the knowledge I acquired from Dr. Sarno help me? For me, the answer is a resounding yes.
Remember, healing from TMS requires belief (or in the absence of total belief, a leap of faith) and persistence. It is very easy to give up and search for another "cure" especially when years pass and one does not get total relief from their symptoms. Those who take a long-term view tend to do better those who get frustrated with lack of results. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2008 : 17:25:27
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I cannot resist responding to Dave as he is insinuating I know nothing of Dr. Sarno - despite having read everything he has written numerous time in the past 3 to four years - and that I have not made sufficient effort to apply Dr. Sarno's treatment program in my life.
Since Dave - if that is his real name- does not really know me he cannot say for certain to what extent I did try Dr. Sarno's method. Only my wife and I - and of course God- knows how hard I tried to apply every suggestion that Dr. Sarno made. But after all that time and effort little or no change was brought about in my symptoms. Now most people would give up after that length of time but Dave would find fault with me and others for seeking other avenues. I too was a Sarno fundamentalist so I know that mindset.
I will say it again so as not be be misunderstood. If Sarno works for you then stick with him. However, if after long persistent effort with little or nor progress this may be a sign for you -despite Dave's fire in the belly convictions- to move on to some other (non-physical) treatment program. I suggested a few above. For me, however, I am fed up with the Freudian mombo jumbo which leads to nowhere but despair, and despair is what I want to be free of.
I have not found the magic answer, but I do know what does not work for me personally.
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Edited by - shawnsmith on 03/10/2008 17:25:56 |
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austini
29 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2008 : 18:10:40
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Hi Shawn,
I can understand your frustration. I read Sarno's books a few years ago but had limited success. But awhile back I decided to look into Sarno again and check out the forum again also (was a lurcher previous time around). Around this time I was also very fortunate to stumble upon a great book called "Explain Pain" which describes the pain process based on up to date neuroscientific and celluar biology research. Add to that finding Hillbilly's amazing posts here and at last it all fitted together. In my mind at the heart of the problem is an oversensitised nervous system. Since understanding this and acting accordingly I haven't looked back and real progress is being made.
Cheers - Gordon |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2008 : 09:13:46
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Hi Gordon.
You are not me Gordon and I am not you. If Dr. Sarno works for you then great, but he is summarily ineffective for my particular case and - I suspect- for the vast majority of cases despite his inflated success stats which only a fool would believe. Yet, strangely enough, people keep hanging on after years of applying his teachings with little or no relief. That is irrational.
As for reading yet another book about the sources of pain from the vantage point of neuroscientific and celluar biology research then I ask how does that supposed to help with anything? Such reading is an interesting academic exercise but it does nothing to address the real source of the symptoms. One may want to read Candice Pert's Moecules of Emotions for interesting background also, but this will not alleviate suffering.
Where Sarno went wrong is when he latched onto Freudian psychology via Stanley Cohen and utterly dismissed Cognitive Behavior Therapy. Pyshchoanalysis is long, expensive, and - despite it being used extensively - has a very well documented low success rate.
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Edited by - shawnsmith on 03/11/2008 09:14:19 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2008 : 14:27:58
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
I cannot resist responding to Dave as he is insinuating I know nothing of Dr. Sarno
I am not insinuating that at all. I know very well that you have given it your best shot.
The problem is, you change your mind frequently, and when you do, you go 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Anyone can read a chronology of your posts on this forum to understand what I am saying. One day you praise Dr. Sarno with a "purist" attitude, and the next day you bash him as a quack. Who can take you seriously? Where is the "real" Shawn? Do you even know him?
It is very easy, when a treatment does not work, to assume that the treatment itself has no merit. This is certainly much easier than admitting failure. In my opinion, it is counterproductive. If you do not believe in TMS, why do you continue to visit a TMS-related forum?
Even Dr. Sarno will admit that his program is ineffective for many people. Apparently you are one of them. Everyone is free to seek any treatment they deem appropriate for their condition.
Ironically, this topic is titled "Moving on..." yet you refuse to do just that. You feel compelled to come back and post negative comments. Why? I suggest you look within yourself to find the answer to that one. |
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O2BWell
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2008 : 15:31:00
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I'm a 'newbie' having just discovered this site and thought I had found the answer in TMS.
I have to say when I come on the site and read some of your 'arguments' I'm disappointed.
Why does it have to get so personal. How about some 'CONSTRUCTIVE CRITISM' instead of you all shouting your corner insisting you are 'right'.
I'm not usually someone who speaks out - perhaps this is TMS working. But I got so angry reading this thread.
If you can't say anything helpful perhaps you ought to say nothing at all.
O2BWell in Cornwall |
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Alpha
Germany
43 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2008 : 16:59:44
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@O2BWell: Well, I don't know what your problem is, but let me tell you this: From all my research and experience I can tell you, that most physical and mental dysfunctions, discomforts, pains and weaknesses are caused by a overthinking/over-worry/faulty thinking as well as repressed emotions/trauma/stress. This is a fact which isn't newly discovered, but common knowledge in ancient traditions like daoism, shamanism, buddhism, sufism and hinduism.
Modern medicine and Sarno is a part of this are just aware of this fact for some decades now. That's a very good and important development and helps to translate ancient teachings in modern day language.
The discussion about the details, the exact mechanisms and best treatment plans will go on for many years to come, but that's good and natural.
So let me assure you, you found the answer, if you accept, that your mind and your emotions are powerful enough to influence your body.
The discussions taking place here are often very helpful and stimulate, at least me, to always read something new about the mind-body connection, to always approach the problem from a slightly different angle and by that, get an even deeper understanding of the problem. Its really very positive, that these discussions take place.
So just go on and read Sarnos books, work on quitting your minds, work on your emotions, accept that you are physically ok (if you already checked with a doctor, otherwise do that first) and let the others discuss as much as they want, don't be angry because they destroyed the illusion of the beyond-doubt, perfect answer to your problems.
Healing is a journey and what many people forget or don't know, its a different journey for everyone. There is no one-fit-all solution. A certain part of the journey we can all go together, but the final part everyone has to go alone.
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As you think, so shall you become. - Bruce Lee |
Edited by - Alpha on 03/11/2008 17:05:16 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 12:22:08
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| Shawn....I second Dave's remarks. You're been all over the place, from iron clad Sarno purist...weren't you at one time insisting you didn't even want people to talk about their pain as it just got in the way of a purely mind approach....to doubter, and on several occasions, forum leaver...This has got to be your 3rd or 4th farewell over the past year or so... |
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scottjmurray
266 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 13:26:22
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anxiety for me has always been because there was some emotion just below the surface that i wasn't willing to express or accept feeling during whatever situation i was in. in that way you can think of anxiety as a distraction syndrome from "inappropriate" emotions, just like tms. i didn't always used to feel anxiety. when i was a kid i was anxiety-free, aside from my irrational fears of things, because i openly vented every emotion that popped into my silly little head. now that isn't the case though, but we're working on that. the anxiety is only slight nowadays.
Author of tms-recovery.com
A collection of articles on emotions, lifestyle changes, and TMS theory. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 15:18:25
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Scott,
If you had irrational fears, that is the dictionary definition of anxiety. I just read a post from someone who nearly two years ago scolded me to stop looking outside Sarno for answers when I posited the theory that back pain was a symptom of an anxiety condition. It's all there in the book, she claimed. She claimed victory at the time over her back problems. Imagine the irony I felt when that person posted today about having an ongoing battle with anxiety and back pain and having not been able to resolve it even with therapy from a Sarnotherapist.
Full text of that discussion here: http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2102
I am not going to keep banging this drum here because it is senseless to do so where everyone is looking for distractions and repressions and "blindly raged unconsciouses" and not willing to read up on how nervous conditions are fomented and perpetuated by looking at their thought lives. It is a tragedy, and the number of relapses I have read about here on the forum is simply amazing. Some people apparently think they have two or even many separate conditions affecting them all at the same time, so loud is the body noise. This is the hallmark of the anxiety condition.
Once more, if you are struggling with strange, diffuse, untreatable symptoms (including pain in soft tissues anywhere) and you have tried Dr. Sarno's treatment plan and gotten little or no relief, please look into treating it using the anxiety route. You might just get your life back. |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 03/15/2008 15:09:07 |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 16:38:38
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Yar...
Thanks everyone
both/and/and/and/and...
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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weatherman
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2008 : 13:16:53
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Shawn
I am curious about what your turning point was. At one time you were so fervent about TMS that Dave seemed like an agnostic.
I'm not sure how important the distinction between rage and anxiety is in the grand scheme of things. It seems that Sarno said somewhere that anxiety is actually another rage manifestation. But maybe the common point to any of these non-mainstream theories is that the pain etc. symptoms are psychological in origin, not physical.
Weatherman
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." |
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sborthwick
87 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2008 : 07:32:19
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I just realized that Hillbilly was referring to me in the post he quoted. This is a really interesting thread.
I will say in defence of Sarno - that I did not finish the work with his psychologist....Sarno told me to go back and that the 4 months of therapy I did was not enough.
I can definitely say that my excruciating back/sciatic pain has never come back and that I can do any exercise at all because of Sarno. However, I discovered that I definitely suffer from anxiety. I agree with Sarno that this is probably as a result of repressed rage from my childhood - and I have all the tendencies of perfectionism and being a "do gooder" etc. I ordered Caroline Bassett's anti-anxiety program and I am going to try it out. This is completely based on Claire Weekes and is pure adn simple Cognitive Behavioural therapy. I have to say that it makes sense to me that if one changes the tape in one's head and learns to be kinder to onself and think positively - I can probably undo alot of pain that I experienced in my childhood.
However, I do wonder if, when my anxiety has gone away - and I believe that Caroline Bassett has tremendous success - if the repressed rage in my unconscious that I have not dealt with will cause other symptoms. It will be interesting. I certainly don't want to get something serious....like heart problems or cancer.
I am going to give this approach a go....but I do believe that there is alot of truth in Sarno's theory. If, I start getting other symptoms again, then I will go back to Sarno's therapist. I think I would have tried every other avenue by then!! |
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Big Rob
32 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2008 : 14:14:46
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I'll be perfectly frank it appears to me that Sarno's treatment method is a from of CBT anyway.
A lot of what Sarno says in part fits the cognitive behavioural model.
The central difference between this model and the freudian model is one of irrational beliefs as opposed to repressed emotions causing mental illness respectively.
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Edited by - Big Rob on 03/19/2008 14:15:29 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2008 : 16:17:16
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| Well said, Rob. And this highlights one of the oversights in Sarno's work: how do we overcome fear? This is the center of CBT for anxiety recovery. |
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Moving on to other things
