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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
 Posted - 02/05/2008 : 14:37:54
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There's just some things science can't prove. I really don't put my trust into science, because the truth is not always told by science. Science will always keep changing. Remembers the guys who said ulcers are caused by H-Pylori, now we all know that's not true. I'm suprised you even believe in what Sarno says, because his treatment is not based on science, but on finding out a person's spirit and emotions, and that's not something we can see, we just have to accept and believe.
The failures of others to recognize the facts, does not change the truth. |
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 15:06:22
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quote:
Science will always keep changing. Remembers the guys who said ulcers are caused by H-Pylori, now we all know that's not true.
PRECISELY!!! That is exactly the check and balance that science has! Someone has found other information to be critically reviewed, it's studied and tested by others and, bingo, we have new information! Science grows and changes as we learn more. The bible stays the same. The Earth is flat. The Earth was created before the sun. The Earth is only 6000 years old. All very outdated scientifically. But when one has vowed to believe in the bible at all costs, that's what you get. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 17:59:57
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Sarno's theory is based on evidence from successful applications of the method. Not unlike the theory of gravity. :-)
Mind and emotion are not unscientific concepts; they're high-level shorthands for physical events that happen in the brain.
I'm not even going to get into 'trusting' science. The great thing about science is that trust is not the issue. Evidence is. Trust Jesus if you want, but calculate your projectile trajectories with Newton.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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electraglideman
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 18:12:53
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| I did not mean any disrespect to anyone, whether you believe in God or not, with my above post. I hope no one took offense with it. |
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 18:58:32
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| Not at all offended, electroglideman. I could discuss this stuff for hours. I was once a die hard evangelical. |
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 20:02:34
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If some H-Pylori is said to cause ulcers, than it's some wrong conclusion someone made. Just like re-heating spinach was 'bad' because 'science' said nitrates were released or something. Until someone said 'yeahhh but only if you heat it slowly and very long'. Now we can re-heat spinach.
It's not science that completely changed, it's the conclusion. Maybe through additional findings.
Just to stir things up I'd like to quote Sam Harris into the equation now:
quote:
While you believe that bringing an end to religion is an impossible goal, it is important to realize that much of the developed world has nearly accomplished it. Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark, and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on earth. According to the United Nations' Human Development Report (2005) they are also the healthiest, as indicated by life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate, and infant mortality. Insofar as there is a crime problem in Western Europe, it is largely the product of immigration. Seventy percent of the inmates of France's jails, for instance, are Muslim. The Muslims of Western Europe are generally not atheists. Conversely, the fifty nations now ranked lowest in terms of the United Nations' human development index are unwaveringly religious.
Episode from Penn & Teller about Intelligent Design (26 minutes):
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=1083565954
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TMS is the hidden language of the soul. |
Edited by - Redsandro on 02/07/2008 06:20:58 |
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qso
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 06:40:41
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The quote from Sam Harris is so comical that I figure he must have grown up in a small cut-off village somewhere in the western hemisphere and had some sort of surgery to remove part of his brain and is now living in Guantanamo bay.
By the way see my other post on how science is done. Usually paradigm shifts do not occur with additional findings, it happens because scientists make conclusions from incomplete evidence and therefore the conclusions include bias. And yes they can also include belief. Which can turn out to be plain wrong. I can say that because I am a scientist. |
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 09:01:32
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quote:
By the way see my other post on how science is done. Usually paradigm shifts do not occur with additional findings, it happens because scientists make conclusions from incomplete evidence and therefore the conclusions include bias. And yes they can also include belief. Which can turn out to be plain wrong. I can say that because I am a scientist
Ah, but you still have checks and balances. Competing biases. New theories. There are none of these things when it comes to believing a 2000 year old work of literature that claims to have everything figured out. |
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Jim1999
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 23:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Redsandro
I want to bring up another example of what might relativize your (since it does for me) daily issues - issues that we are involunteerly spending so much neurologic activity on to have our minds justify pain and suffering - without possibly contradicting your beliefs.
Currently I am reading A Briefer History Of Time by Stephen Hawking...
I am not gonna go through great lengths to describe how it helps me. But for me, it works like journaling. It is continuously touching the subject (although it can include forbidden topics that I advise you to keep for yourself) that constantly reminds you that stress is not really the most interesting way to deal with situations that occur on a place less insignificant than a pixel on the whole internet. Just as I do occasional journaling, I do occasional this. The realisation is not for my entertainment, it's for my subconscious (in order to become perspective-altering so that I naturally perceive less stress in human situations) which, as we know, is slow to learn.
Redsandro,
I am highly skeptical of this as an approach for treating TMS. To me, telling your unconscious mind that you find it irrational (or "uninteresting") to respond with so much emotion to minor situations is likely to result in more repression, not in any reduction in the emotions being generated. Keep in mind that Dr. Sarno never tells us to change the way we feel, just to be honest with ourselves about how we feel. As to your reduction in back pain, I suspect that it's due to your journaling, not to any "atheism therapy".
Jim |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 12:29:42
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I actually think it is quite possible to change our perspectives and our life attitudes so that we generate less unconscious rage. One way to do this is to be honest about how we feel internally and allow ourselves to express that honest emotion externally in appropriate ways.
Another way is to get a different perspective on life in general.
I think this can be addressed in so many ways. Both insight therapy and CBT work on this -- CBT through changing habitual negative thoughts that have no basis in reality, insight therapy through understanding where our thoughts and feelings and reactions come from and learning better patterns to work with. Meditation works on this -- we learn to be in the moment, be in our being, instead of in our thoughts. And it's also affected by spiritual thoughts and practice occur. For those of us who are atheists, I think science often arouses our spirits, our sense of wonder and beauty and amazement. And the more we appreciate life and the universe, the less angry I think we will be.
I'm not suggesting that we can stop being angry or that there aren't things to be angry about. We won't and there are. It's about balancing that out a little, and I think it can be done. Sarno wants everyone to be out of pain, because he is a doctor whose mission is to alleviate physical suffering. The first step out of pain is his program. After that, many people find they need more. What Sarno does or doesn't say about that 'more' is irrelevant because he's mainly concerned with the first step. After the realm of Sarno you enter the realm of Eckhart Tolle, Pema Chodron, John Bradshaw, Alice Miller, Stephen Hawking, Jesus Christ, and co. 
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
Edited by - armchairlinguist on 02/08/2008 12:31:48 |
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Jim1999
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 23:16:47
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Originally posted by armchairlinguist
The first step out of pain is [Sarno's] program. After that, many people find they need more. What Sarno does or doesn't say about that 'more' is irrelevant because he's mainly concerned with the first step.
I might find that convincing if Sarno had, say, a 30% success rate for patients who see him in person, and if he didn't know what patients should do after that. Since Sarno reports that around 90% of his patients become pain-free and return to a normal lifestyle, I hardly see how his treatment is just a first step. Yes, people who try to recover without seeing Sarno, or another TMS doctor, probably have a much lower success rate. I would say that's because these patients are missing something they would have received by seeing Sarno personally, not that they need to try to add treatments like CBT which Sarno himself dismisses.
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
I actually think it is quite possible to change our perspectives and our life attitudes so that we generate less unconscious rage. One way to do this is to be honest about how we feel internally and allow ourselves to express that honest emotion externally in appropriate ways.
Um, no, that doesn't reduce the amount of rage produced. It helps us deal with the rage better.
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
Another way is to get a different perspective on life in general.
I think this can be addressed in so many ways. Both insight therapy and CBT work on this -- CBT through changing habitual negative thoughts that have no basis in reality, insight therapy through understanding where our thoughts and feelings and reactions come from and learning better patterns to work with.
In the Mindbody Prescription, Sarno dismisses CBT for TMS, saying that CBT "merely puts a cover on an unsavory pot. It does nothing about the unsavory brew." (Redsandro's "atheism therapy" seems very CBT-like to me.) Insight therapy deals with getting in touch with the unconscious, not teaching the unconscious mind to generate less irrational emotions.
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
Meditation works on this -- we learn to be in the moment, be in our being, instead of in our thoughts.
If, by meditation, you mean the type in which patients try to focus on nothing or on happy thoughts, this might provide a distraction against repressed emotions. I fail to see how it does anything to reduce the amount of emotion generated. If, on the other hand, you are talking about a type of meditation aimed at trying to get in touch with how the patients feel, that would be like insight therapy. It could help by getting in touch with emotions that have been generated, not by reducing the emotions being generated.
Jim
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 13:13:07
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Since Sarno reports that around 90% of his patients become pain-free and return to a normal lifestyle, I hardly see how his treatment is just a first step.
You basically missed my whole point here. Becoming pain-free IS the first step, or at least it has been for me. For some people it's also the last step. If that's the only step you ever need, then you don't need to go beyond what Sarno recommends. But if you need more -- like dealing with the emotions themselves -- then you do go out of territory that Sarno is familiar with. At this point his recommendations aren't as relevant, because his primary recommendation is "See a therapist", and therapists tend to have something different to say about emotions than what Sarno says.
For example, he says the real, unconscious emotions are hardly ever accessible. I think many insight therapists would disagree. I would disagree, because I don't think I'm particularly special to be an exception to the rule, and yet I've experienced some of the unconscious emotions. Once emotion can identified and experienced consciously, less of it is stored unconsciously, so we don't end up with as much unconscious emotion. Same amount of emotion generated, but more of it is consicous. Of course, not all of it. There's always going to be some we can't get to.
To me this is actually an extreme example of "thinking psychological". Basically one goal in TMS treatment is to become less frightened by our emotions so that we don't need to be distracted in the same way. Being able to actually experience them instead of storing them away is an extreme case of being more okay with and less frightened of the emotions.
Don't forget that there are several sources for the reservoir, and one of them is personality (e.g. perfectionism, goodism). Personality is partly made up of recurring thoughts and emotional habits. These things change when you're in therapy or undertaking other avenues of becoming familiar with your psychological map (e.g. mindfulness meditation). When they change, you tend to act more in line with what you truly want. Maybe you've been goodist all your life and you hardly ever (for simple example) speak up to give your preference about a restaurant, movie, or other destination. If you start doing that, it's practically guaranteed that you'll be less unconsciously angry, because you discount your own emotions less, and you'll get what you want more often. In the simple "3-year-old" model of the unconscious, more get what you want == less rage. Pretty clear.
It's clear why Sarno doesn't think it's normally worthwhile to discuss this in the context of TMS -- most people don't need to do this to get out of pain (I didn't), and his goal is for people to be pain-free quickly and without hassle. His program is ideally suited for doing that. But that just doesn't mean that it's the end-all, be-all, or that he's right about everything.
We can generate less unconscious rage. Whether any particular way of managing our emotions does that or does something else (perhaps soothing -- Sarno himself discusses the rage/soothe ratio -- or perhaps distracting -- nothing wrong with that, in small doses!) may not be that clear, but it can happen.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Jim1999
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2008 : 23:23:43
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quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
Maybe you've been goodist all your life and you hardly ever (for simple example) speak up to give your preference about a restaurant, movie, or other destination. If you start doing that, it's practically guaranteed that you'll be less unconsciously angry, because you discount your own emotions less, and you'll get what you want more often. In the simple "3-year-old" model of the unconscious, more get what you want == less rage.
OK, I did overstate my position in one way. Patients do have some control over their circumstances and can use this to reduce the emotions generated. However, that's irrelevant to the discussion of Redsandro's comments, which are about internal responses to circumstances, not ways to try to change those circumstances.
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
You basically missed my whole point here. Becoming pain-free IS the first step, or at least it has been for me.
You're saying that "The first step out of pain is [Sarno's] program" means "The first step is to get out of pain through [Sarno's] program"? That's a really unclear wording. I interpreted it as meaning the "The first step to get out of pain is [Sarno's] program." I suspect that many others would interpret it this way as well.
Anyway, now that you've clarified this, I'd just like to point out that Redsandro's original topic is how to get out of pain, not what to do after. On this point, you (ACL) and I seem to agree that, to recover from TMS, it's better to focus on Sarno's program alone, rather than to add Redsandro's atheism technique.
As far as what to do after recovering from TMS, I'm not interested in discussing that at this time.
Jim |
Edited by - Jim1999 on 02/13/2008 23:27:39 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2008 : 12:03:56
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As far as what to do after recovering from TMS, I'm not interested in discussing that at this time.
Unfortunate! I love talking about what to do after the initial period of recovering from TMS. Especially since it often has relevance to people who are struggling with "the program." And yes, I did mean that Sarno's program is for getting out of pain, and after that, there are many steps to staying pain-free and becoming a healthier, happier person. So far no one seems to mind that we talk about that stuff here. Probably because, as I said, it's often relevant to people still struggling.
I got pain-free within six weeks using Sarno's program, but after that I got depressed and anxious again, and unfortunately, I didn't find Sarno to be adequate help at that point because depression and anxiety are extremely hard to fight using the distraction technique. Besides, they were coming from somewhere, and I needed to find out where. Hence deeper emotional work and therapy, which led me into these other realms, far away from what Sarno thinks about the subject of emotions. He just doesn't go far enough, and in fact he recognizes this and explicitly turns those patients with this need over to therapists. There's really no debate on this, the only debate is on whether he's right about what he does say about the emotions. Which I don't think he is in some cases, but what he says about this subject just isn't very important to me at this point.
I'm not really still hanging around here to help people grasp the basics, although I do make posts about that sometimes. I'm still here to discuss the more complex things that come up in the course of the emotional work and changing life patterns, because that's where I am right now. For people who don't need to go there, my discussions are totally irrelevant, I assume, and hopefully they just ignore them.
I don't think that Redsandro and I are really talking about different things, anyway -- both of us are talking about things that help TMS go away and stay away. Frankly I have no problem with his initial post that looking at the world differently helps him change his TMS-creating thought patterns. I've found this to be true for me as well, though I don't usually use Hawking and Dawkins to achieve it. :-) The only reason I got tied up in this thread to begin with was a somewhat semantic debate over whether he had been too exclusive in his phrasing of whether this help was available to theists.
At any rate, you clearly have nothing more to say to me, since you're not interested in the topic I want to talk about, so I hope someone else will find what I wrote interesting and helpful.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 15:51:27
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Originally posted by Jim1999
I am highly skeptical of this as an approach for treating TMS. To me, telling your unconscious mind that you find it irrational (or "uninteresting") to respond with so much emotion to minor situations is likely to result in more repression, not in any reduction in the emotions being generated.
I really have the feeling it calmed me down and soothed that symptom imperative. Maybe you've read about my recent flare-up in another topic; you could point to that and say you're right. But I think I just dug up another issue "I'm" not satisfied with.
There's been quite some text since I've been gone. I won't address all points made about my "Atheïsm Therapy" (lol) - which I, importantly, changed to "Spacetime Therapy" to include theists (for some theists do believe in space, time, and/or evolution) in order to not make this about atheist vs. religion - but I do like to point out that you're missing the point.
It's not about shrouding your gremlin, opressing your rage and emotions.
quote:
Originally posted by Jim1999
Redsandro's original topic is how to get out of pain, not what to do after.
That's also not true. I never said that. You might have taken something badly out of context. Sarno is the first step. This topic doesn't concern anyone that hasn't fully completed that first step. I didn't look at this in the form of 'steps'. I thought I was clear.
This is about seeing, understanding, exploring and embracing a larger perspective on life, the universe, and everything, in which current personal hate, feud's and social worries seem to claim an unproportional large portion of our brain bandwidth, not to deliberately ignore them, but to reprogram* the brain for agreeing to make stress more proportional (less overt) to everything; hence, same ****ty people to deal with but less TMS causing rage/stress caused.
* By truely embracing Sarno, your brain drops the TMS symptoms. But there's no smart entity in there that sais "Ah darnit, now I have to drop my trick." You're just reprogramming your neuronetwork to include knowledge to prevent psychosomatic pain. I am meaning the same thing, with different knowledge.
Armchair, thanks for your words, although not directed to me. It was definitely Sarno who got rid of my pain. But there's also definitely a struggle going on. I'm seeing this as the post-Sarno-period for his tricks are applied and the rest is up to me. I am seeing a psychotherapist but progress is extremely slow compared to my own 'work'. TMS for life, I'm affraid. But every insight tones down the TMS. One day I hope TMS for me is like living with a hole in my sock. It's there but it won't bother me.
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TMS is the hidden language of the soul. |
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Jim1999
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2008 : 23:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Redsandro
but I do like to point out that you're missing the point.
It's not about shrouding your gremlin, opressing your rage and emotions.
No, I don't think I missed your point. I understand that it was your intention to use Spacetime Therapy as a way to reduce your repressed emotions. The problem is that actual results can be quite different than intended results. In the case of Spacetime Therapy, I expect it would lead to more repression in the future.
quote:
Originally posted by Redsandro
quote:
Originally posted by Jim1999
Redsandro's original topic is how to get out of pain, not what to do after.
That's also not true. I never said that. You might have taken something badly out of context. Sarno is the first step. This topic doesn't concern anyone that hasn't fully completed that first step. I didn't look at this in the form of 'steps'. I thought I was clear.
My comment that you quoted is based on two things:
- the title of this topic ("helps against TMS", not helps with other issues besides recovering from TMS)
- your statements in your original posting about (a) trying to keep your TMS down and (b) your own shoulder and backpain
These certainly sound like you are intending Spacetime Therapy to be for TMS recovery.
Jim
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2008 : 18:04:06
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I meant shoulders as a figure of speech and while decrease of backpain to me is an indicator of success, I never meant this as a Sarno substitute, but an addition. I do not mean TMS as litteral Tension Myositis pain, I mean it as the impact your whole thoughtprocess and grudges have on your wellbeing.
I do not want to read back my posts to see if I haven't made it clear, but at least people from way back (I thought that includes you) know I've successfully applied Sarno in the past. When someone's had that experience, it's inevitable that anything they talk about is an extension to Sarno, not an alternative to Sarno, for you can't unbuild the fundamentals of getting your life back that are built by Sarno.
I understand you understand my intention is do reduce emotions. But not necescarily repressed ones. And if you summarize this as 'telling your unconscious mind that you find it irrational to respond with so much emotion,' I do think you're missing the point, because I'm talking about teaching the unconscious mind about a universe perspective in order to relativize childish human emotions, so the unconscious itself finds certain unproportional emotions unrational enough to tone them down somewhat, or not tone them up so much in the first place.
We've reached a point where you just don't understand me or disagree with me anyway and we cannot convince each other. I fail to express myself more clearly and I'm sorry.
I've lost my interest in this discussion.
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TMS is the hidden language of the soul. |
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Atheïsm helps against TMS
