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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
 Posted - 01/18/2008 : 16:53:51
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Ah, chair, you must have misunderstood me. Bluntly put again, I've not suggested comfort is not possible for theists, I am saying that comfort through atheïstic lectures - the very 'trick' I speak about in my OP - is probably unavailable for theists, and since I'm actually sure about it, 'probably' was an understatement to sound nicer exactly for the purpose of not enraging people like you.
By that, I mean that this topic provides an interesting 'look what might help you too' story which in this particular case is incompatible with a theist philosophy. I was looking for a way to make that clear without starting the topic with a crude 'Theists, this doesn't concern you.'.
I know some religionists believe in evolution too. But I assumed naming Dawkins and providing a link fully created context.
Since you mean to tone down my arrogance, I fully believe the only arrogance in my writing is the one you imagined with it and therefore I don't feel addressed. I was very enthousiastic about the positive impact I experienced and wanted to share without any form of arrogance you imply in mind, but when writing it I immediately remembered what a sensitive place this is and some words to prevent exactly this were going to be weighn on a gold-platinum miniscale. I'm sorry.
Admittingly, I realize now how I chose a very bad title for this topic!
@ 2scoops: (first post)
You fail to understand exactly my answer to what you ask. I think your initial disagreement with my view blocks you from getting the point.
If there's something, ANYTHING, whatever, that makes you change your life perspective in such a way that any stress and anger related events become less distinct, how can you not see the benefit against TMS? Did you read the book?
I will not go into evolution discussion with you. That's clearly not what I intended.
quote:
Originally posted by art
I'm not seeing how atheism is somehow, by its nature. helpful for TMS.
Previous discussion aside, let me add that knowledge of evolution was one of the keys that helped me, together with Sarno's books, in the first place (more then a year ago). Evolution is exactly what you need to understand to grasp such a thing as 'primal instinct', why it is settled on and near the brain stem, how newer lobes became layered on it and how an evolved intelligent human insight both contraticts and overrules the primal instinct, making modern society possible as well as TMS.
@ swmr1:
Thanks for extending my point. :)
@ koukla:
I respect your way and I'm glad you're benefitting from the works. I actually totally agree to the inverse of what you said before mentioning Brady. What I want to point out here is that I've always known 'people like you' (if I may generalise to make a point) get cured equally well as myself, while however having the opposite life philosophy. I would not ever write something to imply only my vision will make Sarno's work beneficial.
@ art:
I've always read your posts with interest. That's why your last reply surprised me. It dodges the in my opinion quite obvious point once again. It's getting the traditional American opposition reasoning vibe; ridicule the basic idea to trivialise any resulting concequences. (I don't know where you're from. 'American' is part of a description, not a personal flame.)
quote:
Originally posted by 2scoops
The information (bible) was written around 2,000 years ago, and I think it's awesome that Sarno made the connection between it and our health.
You might disagree with my original point, but this strikes me as weird again. I know Sarno made a connection between our health and evolution, but where does he ever make a connection to the bible?
@ Odrog:
Congratulations, you're the first poster to piss me off. All your points are off-topic, like some others' posts. Your list of facts is as artificial as Pamela's boobs. You managed to have me respond to something offtopic: Religious people often worry about the meaninglessness of life itself, they only live it, obeying many constraints, in order to secure an imaginary eternal happiness in death. Atheists on the other hand tend to understand that life is precious. When law was invented and religion wasn't passed on by sword anymore, that's when atheists became happyer then religionists.
If you've ever read any of Einstein's work, it would be very clear to you that his views were purely atheistic, although he liked to use words like god and religion metaphorically. People quoting Einstein to promote theism flag their own writings as 'waste of time literature.'
quote:
Albert Einstein:
I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is a somewhat new kind of religion.
The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive.
@ qso:
You've got point. TMS is dependent on your own beliefs. It's in your head. YOUR point of view is interconnected with YOUR solution to TMS, just like your newer brain lobes are connected to your primal instinct. So in order to get rid of TMS, it is apparently not relevant what the answer to life, the universe and everything is. Resolving structural TMS is reprogramming neurological networks by focussing on what matters. Whether those neurons were a result of evolution or created by God is irrelevant.
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TMS is the hidden language of the soul. |
Edited by - Redsandro on 01/18/2008 17:00:49 |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 17:58:12
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swmr, I think your taking my post wrong. I'll say this again, ANYONE can heal from TMS, this is not my theory, it's Sarno, and it doesn't discriminate against the Christian, the atheist, the Jew, the black, the white, etc. It is about searching our emotional life, and accepting the pain is from emotions, anxiety, fear, worry, people pleasing, etc. My TMS maybe caused by people pleasing, someone elses maybe from anger of being abused, etc. It is an individual's quest to seek what is causing the pain. I know there are some believers in God on here that have struggled with believing in TMS, because their religion, and they have struggled with admitting to their emotions and how they play a part in their health. Maybe I'm not doing the best at explaining what I mean on the internet. For some, finding some bible verses might help them relate to the mindbody connection. I believe Scott Brady's book, points out the connection between mind-body-spirit and mentions some stories from the bible. IF you are a believer in Christ, than these verses can help, if your not a believer, than they will not help.
I was trying to help a lady at church. She has chronic back pain, she had surgery, didn't work for her. I gave her Sarno's book. She told me that her emotions had nothing to do with her pain. She got worse and had a pain pump installed in her abdomen area, and guess what it doesn't work, why, because she does not make the connection. I got relief from the book, because I admit that it is emotional and spiritual. Now, here you have 2 believers in the same God, the same bible, one is getting better and one is not. Now, I say again, just because someone believes in God, does not mean they get will get better, one has to make the connection. Are there bible verses that helped me, you better believe it, and because they have helped me, I know they could hekp others, not EVERYONE, but someone else. So, let's say this again, just because someone believes in God, it doesn't mean their back pain will go away. They have to accept there is an underlying emotional componenet. If one does not believe in the bible, than how would it profit you/them?
The title of this thread is what led me here, that Atheism fights against TMS. I fail to see where it does. I see where seeking the TRUTH does. I'm sure if you ask Sarno, he would say, you just got to accept it's not structural, it's in the mind. So, if one is not able to accpet this, than being a believer or non believer will not help fight the pain. I can see whre many religious people could have TMS pain. Many RELIGIOUS people are taught to perform and their worth is based on pleasing others in the church. Sometimes instead of seeking, they base their worth on what others say, and they are affraid to admit to others their flaws and sins. In the book of James, it says to confess your faults to one another, pray, so that you maybe be healed. There are religions out there, that make it hard for others to confess, because they fear punishment and rejection. They believe in God, but in this case it will not them with their TMS. Now, aetheist may not be afraid of what others in the church think, and may not fear rejection of the church, but may have anger in his heart about rejection from a parent, or have a stressful job that creates so much tension, it causes symptoms. But, if the aetheist in this case does not admit to the pressure and tensions, then the symptoms continue. In both of these cases you have two people, and because of their beliefs, if they don't admit to the cause they will not get better. Which goes back to my earlier point, being a Chrisitan or atheist does not mean one will get better, they have to seek the true cause. If you cut a Christian he or she will bleed, if you cut an atheist, he or she will bleed. Same with emotions.
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 18:06:29
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When I said the info in the bible was written 2,000 years ago, I meant that it was good to see that Jesus said don't worry, fear, people please. These are things I believe to be involved in TMS. SArno wrote a book about these emotions that were in the bible, and I'm glad that he made a connection about these emotions, and our physical health. I didn't mean that Sarno made a bible-mind=body connection. I don't know what Sarno's beliefs are.
Oh, and I do agree with qso, in a way, that is what I was trying to convey. |
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Big Rob
32 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2008 : 17:47:36
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quote:
I fail to see where being an atheist helps TMS.
It can help TMS, this is because open minds, as opposed to closed ones, are much more receptive to TMS.
quote:
TMS is admitting that our repressed emotions cause physical symptoms.
I am not sure about the 'repressed' emotions malarkey anymore after undergoing CBT.
However, the evidence suggests that real physical pain is caused by emotional disorders.
quote:
It has no bearing on whether you believe God exists.
That depends. To believe in god requires sheer willful ignorance and ignores all of the evidence to the contrary.
Theism is a non-clinical equivalent of TMS, depression, OCD, anxiety and even psychoses.
quote:
Plus, I want to add that the THEORY of evolution holds no water.
Yes it does (hold water). It is supported fully by peer review science.
Creationism or intelligent design are not supported at all be perr reviewed science.
quote:
Why they can make it manditory to teach in schools makes no sense either.
False.
It is good sense to teach children peer reviewed scientific theories.
quote:
If we can from monkeys and fish, why aren't monkeys turning into humans today?
We do see forms of evolution occurring everyday. That form of evolution is called microevolution.
Macroevolution, the type where humans can evolve from lower primates, occurs over millions of years and is backed up by the fossil record. So although we don't see macroevolution occurring day to day there is still evidence to support it.
quote:
Blessed are those who haven't seen, and yet believe!
Damned are those who haven't seen, and yet don't believe (by the standards of your god anyway).
Why would such a god damn us, for lack of belief, and yet keep himself so well hidden from us? |
Edited by - Big Rob on 01/19/2008 18:01:30 |
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Odrog
27 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2008 : 20:33:16
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First of all, lets be clear, secular humanism and atheism are very much so religions. The Supreme Court has even said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described "secular humanism" as a religion. The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a 'religion' for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in MCCREARY COUNTY, KY V ACLU OF KY (2005). In addition, the Court has adopted a broad definition of 'religion' that includes non-theistic and atheistic beliefs, as well as theistic ones.
You asked for sources for some of the stats about Christians that could be relevant to TMS...
Pew Research Center on the happiness claim:
www . christianitytoday . com/ct/2006/marchweb-only/110-32.0.html
Evangelical Protestants are the happiest people in America. Or at least that's what they say.
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Odrog
27 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2008 : 20:51:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Rob
quote:
I fail to see where being an atheist helps TMS.
It can help TMS, this is because open minds, as opposed to closed ones, are much more receptive to TMS.
So there can't be a closed minded atheist? And someone who happens to believe in God can't have an open mind about a very reasonable, treatment for a health problem? Give me a break, these ignorant generalizations do you no good.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Rob
Theism is a non-clinical equivalent of TMS, depression, OCD, anxiety and even psychoses.
WOW - now to believe in God = disease? I suppose you think Atheists don't see shrinks either, right??
http://www.veritas.org/media/talks/532
The Dawkins Delusion Part 1
http://www.veritas.org/media/talks/533
The Dawkins Delusion Part 2
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2008 : 21:18:00
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Odrog--
"Evangelicals are 26 percent more likely to describe themselves as "very happy" than Americans as a whole..."
according to Christianity Today/the Pew Research Center Survey. I don't know about you, but when I was an evangelical I was supposed to be happy. I was supposed to be fulfilled and joyful. Of course I described myself as such. To have said I was an unsatisfied believer would have been borderline blasphemous. Just ask U2 about "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For."
Believe me, when I started asking (honest, thoughtful and troubling) questions about my faith, the faithful squirmed, stammered and walked away. Questioning and finding faith in any way unsatisfying are not looked on with approval by other evangelicals. I have a feeling that has more to do with the self-described happiness you are cheering about than anything substantial. By the way, what about those extra orgasms had by evangelicals? Source on that one?
Beware if you are a TRUE seeker in the evangelical church. If you really expect answers and really ask pertinent questions you will find little support and a lot of nonsense. |
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Big Rob
32 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2008 : 21:41:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Odrog
First of all, lets be clear, secular humanism and atheism are very much so religions.
Atheism is not necessarily a religion. If certain atheists want to bring a level of religious adherence to the blatantly obvious then so be it.
They can count me out. |
Edited by - Big Rob on 01/19/2008 21:43:20 |
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Big Rob
32 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2008 : 21:52:32
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quote:
So there can't be a closed minded atheist?
Closed minded with regards to what?
quote:
And someone who happens to believe in God can't have an open mind about a very reasonable, treatment for a health problem?
I am not necessarily saying that they don't.
However, the belief in god, from what I have seen, is comparable to most other emotional disorders, either clinical or non-clinical (i.e. a unwillingness to change a belief when evidence to the contrary is demonstrated).
quote:
Give me a break, these ignorant generalizations do you no good.
Some people find that basing their beliefs on evidence makes them more mentally healthy.
This is the basis of CBT.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Rob
Theism is a non-clinical equivalent of TMS, depression, OCD, anxiety and even psychoses.
WOW - now to believe in God = disease?
I used the term 'non-clinical'.
Therefore it is obvious I am not referring to theism being a clinical disease.
quote:
I suppose you think Atheists don't see shrinks either, right?
Atheists do not see shrinks for their atheism. They may have other clinical issues, the same as theists.
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Edited by - Big Rob on 01/19/2008 21:53:04 |
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2008 : 17:29:59
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I am not sure if I dare bumping this thread, but I think I just did.
To people who were watching this as soap series: This is the part where you loose interest.
I want to bring up another example of what might relativize your (since it does for me) daily issues - issues that we are involunteerly spending so much neurologic activity on to have our minds justify pain and suffering - without possibly contradicting your beliefs.
Currently I am reading A Briefer History Of Time by Stephen Hawking. Even though I think Stephen conciders it as Time for dummies I believe it is somewhat on the tough side. It describes space and time pretty thorough. I like to search on the internet for smart people talking about it in a creative way so that it makes you realise - once again - what you already know, to such an extend that it touches your perspective of the universe - of which the center is of course me - and your place in it, and the importance of worrying about other people being asses (or any better example you can come up with).
I am not gonna go through great lengths to describe how it helps me. But for me, it works like journaling. It is continuously touching the subject (although it can include forbidden topics that I advise you to keep for yourself) that constantly reminds you that stress is not really the most interesting way to deal with situations that occur on a place less insignificant than a pixel on the whole internet. Just as I do occasional journaling, I do occasional this. The realisation is not for my entertainment, it's for my subconscious (in order to become perspective-altering so that I naturally perceive less stress in human situations) which, as we know, is slow to learn.
If you simply can't imagine how this helps at all, then I give up. :)
But if you see my point, allow me to show todays lecture I found on internet that I saw as a creative view on the facts:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/47
(Length: 18 minutes.)
Watching one lecture is like journaling once; peeing in the ocean. It should become an interest, including literature. Anyway, have fun.
If you come acros great video material, please share it so I can add it to my personal therapy.
____________
TMS is the hidden language of the soul. |
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qso
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2008 : 21:55:30
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Not meaning to make light of this heavy discourse but I thought a little bit of humor may be appropriate at this juncture by means of a funny (true) story.
I was at a four day cosmology conference in 2004 that was attended by Stephen Hawking. He did not give a lecture but was listening to the presentations at the front of the lecture hall, with his nurse beside him. Many talks were given by some of the top cosmologiists in the world and there was much argument and debate after most talks since at the frontiers of knowledge nobody knows the answers. Some of the arguments get quite heated and personal -some of them easily more fierce than the ones on this thread, and those people are supposed to be on the same side! For example, it was revealed that a certain well known result for a certain well-known number in the Universe was different if you did the same analysis on one half of the sky compared to the other half. There were gasps and groans of shock from the audience, heads turned, and mouths dropped (implying that none of the analysis should be believed until the two halves gave the same answer and we may have been fooled for years). During the entire conference Stephen Hawking spoke only once and said only one word:
NO.
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2008 : 07:31:58
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Heh, yeah Stephen is known to be a funny guy. 
____________
TMS is the hidden language of the soul. |
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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2008 : 17:50:27
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Btw did you know it takes MORE ** faith** to be an atheist and believe in nothing, than to believe in God.
For one look at the human body. Look at the way the brain compensates / functions in all its ways. Not only its capabilities but its an amazing chemical factory.
Look at the auto immune system. Look at the beautifully designed immune defense system designed by the Master. Fact it would take you 9.5 years to read out loud, without stopping, All the DNA information present in one person. Put aside religion for one moment and let’s just consider science in what it teaches today. Sorry to say but evolution is old schooled and rarely discussed by modern scientist more like
“Intelligent design”. Read the headlines in science and do some modern research… not follow some old worn out agnostic professor that’s mad at the world and doesn’t want to come with the grips of reality.
How bout this
Just take a look outside sunrise /sunset or lets say on a clear night. Perhaps it’s just came into nothing by coincidence. And we re all part of this big accident.... More like the encyclopedia was a result of an accidental explosion in a bindery 
Have you ever witnessed a *real miracle* perhaps see a picture of conception and follow it all the way through to actually witnessing a child birth in person.
One the greatest scientist of our time Sir Isaac Newton was sitting at his desk, he happened to have a model of the universe erected in front of him. One of the colleagues was looking at with fascination in how all the planets moved with such precession around the sun as their alignment with one another.
Than he commented isn’t it just amazing how all these things happen in such an orderly fashion ?
Isaac Newton just looked up smiled and said I wonder how…
Btw with today’s modern technology science no longer would use the term creation because we have way too much science to back up what know as intelligent design.
Back to my original statement “ it takes MORE ** faith** to be an atheist and believe in nothing, than to believe in God.”
Another fact 95% of claiming atheist believe in something so that would not classify them as atheists.
One question for them when you’re happy, and overwhelmed with grateful emotions, who do you thank?
Ok… now the serious side On a side note as involving “ faith “
Sarno helped me understand, connect the dots and make many connections involved with repressed emotions and my physical body. And God helped me “Heal” my past and move on with my life.
I am not preaching nor saying you must convert to my faith. Merely sharing my faith and experience as related to my personal healing
For those of you that may be stuck in a TMS cycle and never conquered it, maybe this may be something to think about. Cuz IMO we are not only physical and mental beings but also spiritual ones. To be honest, I think that’s the missing component in Sarno’s work and as a human I believe we all long to know our purpose and desire to be in a relationship with our creator.
As Always my best
Kenny v
Always Hope For Recovery
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2008 : 20:12:08
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I can't stand the pressure..
'Intelligent Design' is no science whatsoever, it's the modern form of the same traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer. 'Designed' objects like the eye are in fact evolved many times over and over, as we see a large amount of differently evolved eyes in all species. Just like immune systems. That's because they increase survival by an enormous amount. No science backs up 'Intelligent Design'. Theists use science to back up Intelligent Design in order to claim that Intelligent Design is backed up by science. I shouldn't have to explain this, because everyone adapting that view is falling for the trap set out by advocates of intelligent design to accept supernatural explanations into science.
I mean, Whatever. Intelligent design is pseudoscience, which is a fancy word for bullox, but just people prefer to call it junk science. Look it up in the dictionary.
Your arguments are arguments from ignorance - logical fallacy. People prone to TMS are supposed to be smart. That's why your arguments won't catch on.
Just my 2 cents.
But I'm really glad your perspective has been such a great help for you.
____________
TMS is the hidden language of the soul. |
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2008 : 08:06:42
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Science takes facts and hypotheses and regularly tests conclusions. Science changes as new facts come about. Science is peer-reviewed by scientists and lay people all over the world and through time. The fact that science isn't bound by one set of "spiritual laws or rules" is its strength.
Creationism starts with the conclusion and works backward. It assumes the truth of the conclusion (the bible) and then tries (awkwardly, much of the time) to fit the facts into the pre-determined conclusion. There is no peer-review. The "facts" never change with new information. The bible is a 2000 year old book with a LOT of crummy "science" that has since been long-ago discarded by thinking individuals.
By the way, we are all atheists. Unless of course, you are a believer in Zeus and Horace and the thousands of other gods throughout history. You believers just happen to believe in one more god than I do. |
Edited by - swmr1 on 02/03/2008 08:14:16 |
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2008 : 08:40:03
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quote:
Btw did you know it takes MORE ** faith** to be an atheist and believe in nothing, than to believe in God.
Actually, it isn't a matter of faith at all. It's a matter of being willing to say that you really just don't see the evidence. And, I would say it takes more courage to admit that you just don't know how we came about. You just don't know what will happen when we die. Claiming you know something that is clearly unknowable is not very intellectually honest.
But we're so very lucky to be here in the first place. So we should make what (as far as science can tell us) may very well be our only life the best we can. For ourselves and for all of those around us. |
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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 08:32:08
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quote:
I mean, Whatever. Intelligent design is pseudoscience, which is a fancy word for bullox, but just people prefer to call it junk science. Look it up in the dictionary
.
Ok will do my friend in the mean time look up Intelligent design.
Ill leave ya with something to think about
In TMS we learn allot about the word “distractions” which are actually feelings/emotions that are created within perhaps to cover up replace dealing with reality.
Or Sometimes they are so traumatic to bear with we don’t remember them or want to deal with them.
In return we may experience manifestations. Or what we know as TMS symptoms and or equivalents.
My Q always was if at least we understand why we have them, we may move to the next level of healing
In the English language science has done the same. We have words that mean one thing but we prefer to change their meaning and cover them up with other fancy words. To distract the reader / learner from the truth . But if you study language or interpret their intended / original meaning you come up with its real meaning
Such as: the word fetus which also means young child or baby
And somatic cell transfer is also the a fancy word for cloning…
quote:
Your arguments are arguments from ignorance - logical fallacy. People prone to TMS are supposed to be smart. That's why your arguments won't catch on.
Ok then
Ill leave ya with a Quote from a very smart man…
“Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.”
- Albert Einstein
quote:
Just my 2 cents.
But I'm really glad your perspective has been such a great help for you.
Well as being a TMS sufferer for over 22 years, just sharing from my experience what may help others that may be stuck in this vicious cycle
That is why I have shared. quote:
Ok… now the serious side On a side note as involving “ faith"
Sarno helped me understand, connect the dots and make many connections involved with repressed emotions and my physical body. And God helped me “Heal” my past and move on with my life.
I am not preaching nor saying you must convert to my faith. Merely sharing my faith and experience as related to my personal healing
For those of you that may be stuck in a TMS cycle and never conquered it, maybe this may be something to think about. Cuz IMO we are not only physical and mental beings but also spiritual ones. To be honest, I think that’s the missing component in Sarno’s work and as a human I believe we all long to know our purpose and desire to be in a relationship with our creator.
As Always my best
Kenny v
Always Hope For Recovery
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electraglideman
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 11:35:00
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I would think that it would take a bigger leap in faith to believe there is no God than there would be to believe in God. Now, having said that, today's organized religion leaves a lot to be desired and I can understand why many are turned off by it.
Let me give you one small example. I grew up as a Southern Baptist. They are constantly harping on how sinful it is to drink alcohol. Even as a child I wondered why because one of the many miracles Jesus performed was turning water into wine to make merry at a wedding. According to my Bible my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ made it and give it to his friends. This is just one tiny example of how man has turned the Christian religion into their own desires. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 12:33:37
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quote:
I would think that it would take a bigger leap in faith to believe there is no God than there would be to believe in God.
I've heard people say this so many times it's gotten almost funny, sort of along the lines of 'Morality comes from religion so atheists are immoral'. Reality check time! Aren't any of you aware that most atheists' feelings on this matter can be summed up by Occam's Razor?
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
Don't multiply necessities beyond demand.
Or as my math teacher used to say, "Keep it simple, stupid."
Don't postulate entities that don't need to exist. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but it does show that there's no need to postulate an entity here. It has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with not bothering to believe in things not seen.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 12:35:25
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quote:
I would think that it would take a bigger leap in faith to believe there is no God than there would be to believe in God.
I fail to see where "faith" enters into non-belief. If I am an objective person I start out with no preconceived ideas about god or not-god. When shown evidence for either position I come to a conclusion. The evidence offered for "god" is said to be the complexity or beauty of the world around me. There are a thousand different theories one could come up with to explain this beauty or complexity. Perhaps aliens from another planet "created" us. Perhaps this is all an illusion and none of it is real. Maybe Zeus or Mithra or The Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything. Or maybe the god of the old testament created us in 6 days. The possibilities are endless. There is NO convincing scientific evidence for ANY of the above ideas.
An objective person sees this and decides to remain objective. Who knows how things got the way they are? Science (which is constantly finding out new information) tells us that this or that is true. Evolution offers some interesting information. Perhaps I'll go with what science tells me for now and remain open to new and better findings as they come along.
Or, I guess I can have "faith" that a 2000 year old religious book has all the answers. Which position really requires the "faith" here??? |
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Atheïsm helps against TMS
