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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
 Posted - 01/15/2008 : 19:31:00
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If we all had bombs on the forum, this topic might just start a war. I do not mean to stir, offend or cause a religion debate. This is to the ones interested, this is about something that really helped me.
Hi!
I see a lot of new faces; only a few familiar ones. I hope you're here to help and not for still being in pain after a year!
I've been seeing a psychologist the past few months, to help me keep the TMS down. He's not helping me even remotely as good as Sarno did with a few books alone, but he is helping me to deal with thoughts that bug me and I'm sure it's helping me in at least a minor way. But now, like every once in a while, I've had a thought that actually puts another brick in the wall that's containing the TMS. It has nothing to do with my psychologist though, that was just an update. :)
I was raised by a religious mother and a figure-it-out-yourself father. By age 10 I rejected theism and after a few years of college I understood and acknowledged evolution. Over time, I've had many events that supported and supplemented my understanding of life, biggest of all being a near death during a brain haemorrhage at age 17, causing me to experience this backwards trailer of my life you hear about on tv and learning extremely long dreams are possible in a very short time.
Now I don't want to expound evolution and nontheism, you either accept it or reject it. But if you're still with me, let me continue. I've had my opinions, had my discussions with religious people but apart from that it didn't play any role in my life. And it shouldn't, unless it's some sort of hobby. Anyway, when I was looking to quote something from Richard Dawkins I accidentally found out he was giving a series of lectures about evolution to 12 year old kids back in 1991. And these five one-hour lectures have been released on DVD called "Growing Up in the Universe" last year.
I watched them all. But even though I - and you probably too - already knew most of the things he is telling, he is explaining it in such a way with many elucidating examples (to keep 12 year old kids from falling asleep) that it really sticks. It actually made me more grateful for existance, more confident in my body and realize the amount of luck that's connected to my life (no bad luck day can even remotely counter that). It's weird that something you already know can suddenly help you. Richard took dull facts and explained them in a way that converted the knowledge into a soothing precense in my brain.
It's like rearranging layers of internal facts. Now my primary layer is a feeling of life, where grudges, fears and frustrations used to be in my core. I feel less stressed at my parents, although nothing is changed in our relationship. I am absolutely the same in life. I'm still affraid of a lot of people. Not doing anything different. But I feel like a great weigth as lifted from my shoulders and my backpain (my worst sympton imperative since curing RSI) is a lot less. This is, besides Sarno himself, another example of pure information changing something in you.
I bet though that this 'trick' is unavailable for theists, just like Sarno's 'trick' is unavailable for people without confidence in Sarno.
I actually saw the DVD some time ago but it's still making me happy. So I decided to post it anyway, even though I've seen in the past that the smallest disagreement can cause the biggest flame wars over here. I'm still able to relativize situations that otherwise pissed me off internally. That includes dealing with pressure, suffering stupid or intolerant people (members from way back might remember that's a TMS issue for me) and visiting my parents. And those are NOT THE SAME.
When googling for the DVD's title to make sure I spelled it right, this wikipedia article came up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growing_Up_in_the_Universe
-edit-
Note that the lectures will become more predictive when you read that wikipedia article and whe all know what predictability does to our joy in watching something.
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TMS is the hidden language of the soul. |
Edited by - Redsandro on 01/15/2008 19:35:39 |
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Logan
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 20:30:52
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Hey Redsandro,
I'm sure there will be flames to come but let me be the first to respond. I'm not an atheist, I'm an agnostic (hedging my bets) but I agree with you that there is something liberating to seeing the randomness of life's events.
Just after I became 100% pain free, a coworker of mine was killed by a drunk driver who ran 8 red lights before crushing her Geo with his Ford Bronco. Grieving for her lost life and opportunities (she was only 25) made me wake up and realize that any of us could go at any time.
And now that I was healthy and capable of getting out in the world (after 4 years of semi-invalidism) there was no time to procrastinate in acting on my dreams and ambitions or in speaking my newly clarified mind and heart to the people around me.
It's easy to know this intellectually but every once in awhile a person or event touches us in a way that shatters the delusions we have about how death can't happen to us because our ego convinces us we're "special" in some mysterious way. It sounds like "Growing Up in the Universe" did that for you.
I'll check that out. And for people who are interested in the issue of evolution, you might check out a documentary called Flock of Dodos. It does a good, objective job of presenting different facets of the "should we teach Darwin in public schools" debate.
And I know that some people may comment that this has little to do with curing TMS and maybe, on the surface, this doesn't sound like it has much to do with TMS but it really does. Part of my TMS inducing personality is this stupid drive to be perfect and seeing how much people grieved for and missed my coworker - who was a flawed human being, and in many ways, like myself - was truly illuminating.
Just to play devil's advocate here, I'm guessing that for some people religion works the same way, that the belief that God loves them unconditionally helps them break the chains of perfectionism, or at least stretch them now and again. : )
Thanks for sparking some thought here!
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 21:51:24
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| Yes, very good topic! |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 22:43:57
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Although I'm also not religious, I agree with what Logan says:
quote:
Just to play devil's advocate here, I'm guessing that for some people religion works the same way, that the belief that God loves them unconditionally helps them break the chains of perfectionism, or at least stretch them now and again. : )
You don't really get to assume that your particular mode of thought provides comforts unavailable to anyone else, whether you're religious or not.
That being said, the important news is that you're feeling happier in your life and I'm glad to hear that!
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2008 : 10:44:20
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Logan, the shattered anti-death ego delusion remark is true in many ways, although that's really not how this is making me feel better. Bluntly put, I think from an altered point of view, pressures that cause inner rage are logically put in a secondary less important thread because of broadened intellectual insight (or personal beliefs if you want).
chair, your quote from Logan resembles my own vision. I've said it on the forum before. Every once in a while someone explains how having faith in both God and the good doctors' work is a must for beating the inner gremlin. I would say faith has nothing to do with it, but truely religious people might want to go that road but it's not an option for nontheists. Sarno easily ends the debate by writing "You need not take a leap of faith, rather a leap of understanding" (or something similar)
I am actually quite sure that some modes of thought provide comfort unavailable to certain other people. You've either made a weird statement or I misunderstood you. Marshall Applewhite's mode of thought provided comfort for some people, but the thought of drinking the Kool-Aid in order to help my soul transfer to the space ship that was following Hale-Bopp in order to gladly leave this degenerate planet was not comforting to me, just like L. Ron Hubbard's scientology thoughts were very probably not comforting to mr. Applewhite.
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TMS is the hidden language of the soul. |
Edited by - Redsandro on 01/16/2008 10:46:21 |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2008 : 11:23:01
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| Yes - many people feel better by believing in a certainty "god loves me no matter what I do" or "there is no such thing in a pulled muscle or tendonitis" |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2008 : 13:13:10
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You seem to have misunderstood me. You cannot assume that YOUR mode of thought provides a comfort to you that is unavailable to others unless they adopt the same mode of thought, because other people may be comforted in the same way by an entirely different thought.
The bulk of your post didn't suggest that you think this, but here:
quote:
I bet though that this 'trick' is unavailable for theists
suggests it. You may of course have meant that this particular thought that comforts you is unavailable to theists, which, depending on what thought you are referring to, may also be inaccurate. Evolution and nontheism are not inextricably tied together -- they are only tied together for extremists on both ends.
My post was basically to remind you to be a little less arrogant in your tone about what can help people, because one of the overall impressions from your post is "Hey looky, I'm so cool because I can get comfort not available to theists! Theists don't have this so sucks to be them." You didn't say it, but your tone implies it, not unlike the occasional "God is such an important part of my Sarno recovery, it must be essential for everyone" posts (which annoy me equally, in case you're wondering).
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2008 : 18:10:30
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Redsandro--
Appreciate your thoughts. Hope you don't get flamed. I'm agnostic in theory but in practice I'm probably more of an atheist. I know what you mean when you said "It actually made me more grateful for existance, more confident in my body and realize the amount of luck that's connected to my life." I haven't seen Dawkins' DVD though I have read some of his work. I have really had my eyes opened to the wonder of simple existence and the durability of the human body as a result of listening to Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go of God" experience. Only a small part of that monologue deals with any of that. But I know what you mean. |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2008 : 18:50:42
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I fail to see where being an atheist helps TMS. TMS is admitting that our repressed emotions cause physical symptoms. It has no bearing on whether you believe God exists.
Plus, I want to add that the THEORY of evolution holds no water. Why they can make it manditory to teach in schools makes no sense either. If we can from monkeys and fish, why aren't monkeys turning into humans today?
Blessed are those who haven't seen, and yet believe! |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2008 : 19:02:22
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quote:
why aren't monkeys turning into humans today?
How very funny this is. You need to read a few books on the subject and you'll see why this question really makes no sense. The discouraging thing is, you won't.
All that said, I agree. I'm not seeing how atheism is somehow, by its nature. helpful for TMS. |
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2008 : 20:13:09
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2scoops--
Believe what you'd like. What I think Redsandro is talking about is the awe-inspiring fact that you or I as individuals are even alive. Taking into account the billions of possibilities and different paths that life could have taken over billions of years it's overwhelming to think that any particular individual has chanced to be alive in the first place. On top of that, the evolution of the human body to be as hearty as it is and the human mind to have something as amazing as conciousness--it makes you stop and marvel.
When you don't believe there was a supreme being who simply created everything you are more likely to have a jaw-dropping reaction to the enormity of it all. In that absence of simple answers it gives one a sense of empowerment to think they have somehow made it this far in a universe of chance. That feeling of empowerment can be helpful when one has a tendency to feel injury-prone, weak, or helpless. I think that's all he was saying.
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 07:01:33
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| swmr, like anything in life, or most anything, it cuts two ways. Many people are not only not liberated by contemplating a universe without meaning, they're oppressed by it. I know I am. Such a view could actually make TMS worse by increasing anxiety etc. |
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koukla
70 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 09:35:03
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| I am probably one of those religious people that many of you have been discussing. Since my belief in God affects my entire worldview and is intimately connected with everything in my life, I cannot imagine how athiesm could somehow make it easier for someone to get over/through TMS. That said, if I had been an agnostic/athiest, I don't think I would be any less likely to get the same tremendous benefit from Sarno's work. I just happen to believe that what Sarno says is true. I have actually gotten more benefit from Scott Brady's approach which is that body, mind and spirit are intertwined. I would never say that someone had to follow the same path that I have followed though. I think that everyone will interpret Sarno through the lens of their own religious persuasion/worldview. |
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 11:27:24
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| I don't believe I ever said that there is only one way (to be an atheist) to benefit from Sarno's work. I was just agreeing with and trying to clarify the original statement made. Believe what you will, and please allow others of us to take comfort in (and even comment on) what we find comforting. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 11:46:07
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quote:
I fail to see where being an atheist helps TMS. TMS is admitting that our repressed emotions cause physical symptoms. It has no bearing on whether you believe God exists.
Strange that you should suddenly be espousing this belief now, since I'm fairly sure that in the past you've made posts talking about how God helps TMS. Get some consistency, at a minimum.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 12:46:01
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| This has got to be one of the strangest threads I can remember on this forum. Such an odd proposition to begin with, that atheism would be good for TMS. How about being a Red Sox fan, or living in South Dakota? |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 13:18:54
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I am consistent on what I say, people get better whether they are Chrisitan or not, whether they are religious or not. It's admitting that it's emotional pain that has has been expressed in the body. For God to help with TMS, you have to believe in God. Please don't take what I'm saying in the wrong manner. I do read the bible, and I DO believe in the content there. I do believe God can give us spiritual wisdom, and power. But, through Sarno's work, hasn't both believers, and unbelievers been healed of their pain? I believe in finding the root to thepain, and not treating the symptom. Yes, I have posted bible verses, that I believe to be pertinent to helping with TMS, since I believe there is wisdom in the bible.
You know, Jesus even said himself that there was people who cast out demons and did wonderful works in His name, yet their heart was far from Him. They were not true believers, and seekers. With that said, they were helping people get better, but for all the wrong reasons. Which goes back to me saying this; "I fail to see where being an atheist helps TMS. TMS is admitting that our repressed emotions cause physical symptoms. It has no bearing on whether you believe God exists." Frankly, religion really doesn't mean anything to me, because many practice religion, and there are different religions, different gods to worship. I try and read the bible and get my information from there. Sometimes my qoutes may not mean anything to others, because I get some of my information from a different source.
So, I'll say wit again, my belief in God and Jesus, and someone's unbelief in God, does not mean someone will get better. But as I have posted in the past, the bible says, not too worry, be anxious for nothing, and not to live to please man. Which these traits can cause TMS. The information was written around 2,000 years ago, and I think it's awesome that Sarno made the connection between it and our health. He was brave for coming out and saying you know what, there;s more to our physical health, than can be seen. |
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Odrog
27 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 13:50:24
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I just stumbled across this forum today when I was doing some research on TMS. This thread caught my attention only because it happened to be at the top of the page.
I agree with others here, I don't think TMS really has anything directly to do with one's worldview or religious beliefs. But if you really want to stretch the imagination, I suppose in some way I'd have to come to the opposite conclusion of the original post. Studies have shown that evangelical Christians:
1) Are happier.
2) Live considerably longer.
3) Are mentally and physically healthier.
4) And even have better sex lives w/ more orgasms (go figure!)
If you really want me to, I can hunt down the references for the above, but I believe all came from reputable sources and a little googling will probably turn up the various studies.
As for the whole creation/evolution debate. A few of us have actually gone from being hard core evolutionists, to the creation side. I took college evolutionary biology courses, I've attended Richard Dawkins lectures, etc. And yet I still find the creation model of origins to be superior on a purely scientific basis. I get tired of the insinuations that to believe in creation is to commit intellectual suicide. I've met dozens of intellectuals that reject the molecules to man theory of evolution.
Also the term "creationist" is greatly misunderstood. By certain definitions, the creationist believes in "evolution" and at an even faster pace than many evolutionists do! For example all of the hundreds of varieties of dogs, wolves, coyotes and possibly foxes that exist today are descended from just two animals over a period of less than 15,000 years. Many would consider this "hyper-evolution", and yet this is exactly what creationists believe.
I don't think this forum is the appropriate place to have an origins debate, so here are a couple decent website putting forth some of the creationist ideas for those that are interested:
http://www.trueorigin.org/
http://creationfaq.net/
"The scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation ... His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."
--Albert Einstein
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 17:28:07
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Odrog--
Yes, it would be appropriate to cite your sources for such bold claims. You came from the evolutionist side to the creationist side. I, on the other hand, was a die-hard evangelical christian who went into ministry right out of college. I came out of that experience and am now agnostic leaning toward atheism.
I did not find evangelical christianity to be better at providing anything in your list. I feel more free now than I ever did as an evangelical. |
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qso
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2008 : 21:07:07
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This is a bizarre thread for this forum and has the most number of replies on the front page. In my case, a life in science (22 years as an astrophysicist) was the likely *cause* of my TMS! But that's a long story. So summarizing the information in this thread:
Science: can help with TMS but could also cause it.
Religion: can help with TMS but could also make it worse (can it cause it?).
Atheism: can help with TMS but could also make it worse? (if you are not atheist).
Note that atheism is neither a science or a religion.
Conclusion: TMS doesn't care about science, religion, or atheism??!! |
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swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 11:54:00
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2scoops--
Your post contradicts itself all over the place. You said:
Yes, I have posted bible verses, that I believe to be pertinent to helping with TMS, since I believe there is wisdom in the bible.
and then this:
"I fail to see where being an atheist helps TMS. TMS is admitting that our repressed emotions cause physical symptoms. It has no bearing on whether you believe God exists."
and then this:
So, I'll say wit again, my belief in God and Jesus, and someone's unbelief in God, does not mean someone will get better.
and then this:
But as I have posted in the past, the bible says, not too worry, be anxious for nothing, and not to live to please man. Which these traits can cause TMS.
It seems as though there is a double-standard here. You are allowed to post bible verses that help you in your fight against TMS because you see how they help your TMS. But an atheist/agnostic cannot possibly gain anything from his or her nontheism and so should refrain from posting? Just because YOU can't relate? I happened to relate to the original post. So did a few others.
I would not relate to any bible-based posts you might make. But I, unlike you, would refrain from challenging your view that your theism aids in your healing. What arrogance to claim you can know nontheism can't help anyone. |
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Atheïsm helps against TMS
