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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2007 : 18:42:17
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AnthonEE -- I'd need to check, but I believe TDM is more negative than MBP on stretching.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 19:01:29
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I am starting to understand why Dr Sarno has advised his patients to avoid physical therapy and any other physical activities if they shift the focus too far away from the psychological work. It's just so easy to inadvertently put attention back onto the physical, even if the practitioners are well trained in the psychological work.
For those of us that come from a very physically active and/or athletic background this seems to create a bit of a challenge (The point Kevin is making I think). If a return to "normal activities" comprises running, biking, lifting, swimming, stretching, or whatever, then it is hard to avoid letting the level of performance become some sort of metric for progress. On the one hand it is important to resume these activities gradually to avoid setbacks. And you have to have patience when setbacks do occur. This is what both Sarno and Sopher say in their books. On the other hand how do you avoid the trap of making it a gradual "treatment" or "therapeutic" recovery plan that playsinpain is pointing out?
So how do you resume normal activity (athletic activity) without checking in on your physical self to say "how am I doing with my recovery?" How can you avoid letting it become some form of metric for your progress with TMS? The answer seems to be just stop worrying so much about it and just do what you enjoy doing. Just keep it reasonable based on your age and fitness level.
Maybe if "normal activities" were centered around the sofa things would be a little easier with respect to TMS. Sometimes I wonder what drives certain people to the athletic activities in the first place. Is it part of some insecurity or fear of physical infirmity? Is it part of a perfectionist quality that has helped lead to TMS in the first place?
Does anybody have ideas about how to gradually resume (normal) athletic activity without letting it become a progress metric, or without falling into the trap of letting it becoming some sort of "treatment" or "therapeutic" activity. |
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playsinpain
28 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 19:45:10
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| what's wrong with a progress metric? if progressive activity reinforces physical durability...what's the problem? Say you loved watersking...or rugby...before the pain cycle hit you. Can you really say you're cured if you still avoid those activities? again, it's a question of ending rather than treating. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 20:22:13
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Posted - 12/07/2007 : 08:45:03
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quote:
Sarno is against stretches for 'healing injury', and neutral to negative on them for general health/good feeling. He claims that stretches don't really help anything, so why do them? However, I find that stretching feels good, so I do it if I feel like it. 'Feels good' is a good enough reason why for me.
And it's, I think, pretty much undeniable that regular stretching increases flexibility
Sarno is negative on stretching. It puts the focus back on the physical. Moreover, he feels it doesn't really do anything...
For some reason, this subject gets tends to get people all riled up, but the studies I've seen, show an actual slight increase in injuries on a program of cold stretching before running, and a very slight, barely statistically significant benefit from stretching afterward...
I'm working from memory here, and you'll have to find the studies yourself as it's been a long time. Also, as I recall, there weren't many.
Bottom line for me, stay away from cold stretching. I stretch very occasionally after a run for maybe 15 seconds.. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 09:06:03
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quote:
On the one hand it is important to resume these activities gradually to avoid setbacks. And you have to have patience when setbacks do occur. This is what both Sarno and Sopher say in their books. On the other hand how do you avoid the trap of making it a gradual "treatment" or "therapeutic" recovery plan that playsinpain is pointing out?
The gradual return is a recommendation, but it doesn't actually work for everyone. Some people pretty much get right back out there doing what they were doing. I was very non-gradual with my return to most activities.
In the case of cycling, I worked on my ramp-up as a 'training' program. I didn't have any trouble distinguishing training, or conditioning, from a 'therapeutic recovery'.
It's really all in how you think about things. Don't think too much about it. 
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 09:14:31
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quote:
Originally posted by art
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Bottom line for me, stay away from cold stretching. ...
No doubt about that, need to be warmed up for sure. And of all my running friends, I'm the one that stretches, yet I'm the one that's been on the sideline for several years now. So maybe it's all bunk. Of course I'm only one person and therefore not a very good "study", but it does make me wonder.
quote:
Originally posted by playsinpain
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what's wrong with a progress metric? if progressive activity reinforces physical durability...what's the problem? ...
I'm not sure. Maybe the level of activity is a fine way to reinforce progress and recovery. I don't see any fault in that, anybody have a different view? On the other hand, it is obviously very important to avoid the trap that Kevin points out: using the activity as a way of defeating (treating) or preventing the return of TMS. I think that's the trap that's all too easy to fall into. And it applies to stretching in particular because this activity is traditionally viewed by so many as a preventive or therapeutic type of an activity. Maybe that's an old fashioned and out of date viewpoint, but many of us grew up having that drilled into us: "You'd better stretch before you [insert athletic activity here] or you'll be sorry" |
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electraglideman
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 17:58:44
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If you ever arrive at a High School, College, or Professional football game early enough you will be able watch the players STRETCH. They go through a whole routine of stretching all of the major muscle groups. They do this to make their muscles more flexible which reduces injuries.
Now, will stretching reduce your TMS pain? Yes it can, but only short term. I know some people look at stretching as a poor man's pain pill but I look at it as a way to stay flexible as I grow older. Everyone on this board should know it will not "cure" our TMS pain. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 23:08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by electraglideman
...They do this to make their muscles more flexible which reduces injuries.
There is no evidence that stretching reduces injuries.
Making muscles more flexible? Sure. But prevent injuries? Who knows.
Doing stretching, such as yoga or pilates or other discipline, for overall health, strength, and conditioning, is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
Stretching to "fix" structural problems in an attempt to relieve chronic pain is contradictory to TMS.
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electraglideman
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 12:31:21
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"Stretching to 'fix" structural problems in an attempt to relieve chronic pain is contradictory to TMS." That statement is true.
" They do this to make their muscles more flexible to reduce injuries." I believe this statement is also true from personal experience. Can I prove it? NO |
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chester
49 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 13:41:17
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| My TMS doc yesterday gave me the thumbs-down on stretching, even as a warm-up before running. He suggested instead that I just start off slowly. Quite honestly, I've always done only a token amount of stretching in advance just so I wouldn't feel stupid if I did injure myself. Walking a half mile or so at an increasing pace and then starting a slow jog sounds like a completely reasonable alternative to me. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 16:22:46
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Much more sensible, to simply start out slowly. Cold stretching is simply not helpful and in fact can actually hurt...
If someone could show me a wild animal who stretched for ten minutes before taking off after his prey, I might change my mind...But short of that, I don't think so.... |
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electraglideman
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 17:31:01
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| I agree art. Cold stretching does more harm than good. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 09:13:39
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quote:
Originally posted by electraglideman
I agree art. Cold stretching does more harm than good.
And yet people can be so defensive about such things....I was once kicked off a biking forum for making the same claim about cold stretching. The anger from the members and moderator was just insane. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 10:32:23
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quote:
Originally posted by art
If someone could show me a wild animal who stretched for ten minutes before taking off after his prey, I might change my mind...
That would be funny. I am imagining a cheetah with his foot up on a log, stretching his hamstrings. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 21:03:08
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quote:
Originally posted by AnthonEE
quote:
Originally posted by art
If someone could show me a wild animal who stretched for ten minutes before taking off after his prey, I might change my mind...
That would be funny. I am imagining a cheetah with his foot up on a log, stretching his hamstrings.
Laughing out loud. Exactly  |
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Stretching and TMS
