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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
 Posted - 12/07/2007 : 04:02:05
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This week I got back to "rigorous exercise". I'm back to swimming about an hour every day. I also started stretching more lately. After swimming or various times of the day. I notice that I don't feel so "tight" when I do this and it definitely improve my overall feeling. I feel more limber and relaxed.
I remember Sarno mentioning stretching (Healing Back Pain) if I'm correct. He said something about runners and athletes dropping stretching altogether. Is it counter productive to TMS? I'm not doing it to counter TMS, I do it because it makes me more limber, and that's not some silly "myth", it's a biological fact. In fact I have more courage to stretch now and am not so worried about "tearing something".
I think after years of pain you get into a zone of comfort with respect to range of movement. So your body gets tighter and tighter over the years. Why shouldn't I reverse that? Isn't it just part of being more physically fit?
I'm asking because I don't have the Sarno audio book right now. The CD's got all scratched so I can't refer back. Do I remember correctly about the anti stretching comments? And if it is true, why would someone not calculate that into recovery? I know the people at "Tar Pit Yoga" put stretching into the equation.
I'm thinking loose muscles can move better, I've always been taught that. Range of movement has a lot to do with minor muscle injury. So where am I wrong? And if I'm wrong, are we to believe that all these fitness gurus have it wrong and stretching is another placebo?
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koukla
70 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 06:23:52
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| I think it is fine to stretch before and after a workout because that is the normal and acceptable thing for everyone to do. I think Sarno is against stretches given by physical therapists as a way to heal an existing "injury." Since TMS is not a valid injury, doing the PT stretches would reinforce the wrong idea. |
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chester
49 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 07:00:35
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I’m in a somewhat similar boat. The stretching I did in PT definitely made me feel better, but not to the point that it was any kind of “cure.” If I had thought that, I would never have looked into TMS.
I found that my hamstring and calf stretches, in particular, indirectly lessened my sciatic pain, because having looser connecting muscles took some strain off my buttocks. The worst part of my current pain is that I’m conditioned to wake up every day at around 3:30 or 4:00 a.m. with stiffness that won’t let me fall back asleep for at least an hour. At that hour, it’s really hard to rationalize the pain as TMS, especially since I get anxious and frustrated because I have to get up for work at 6:00. The only thing that helps is getting up and walking around a bit – which is basically an equivalent of stretching.
I’ve been thinking that if I stretched before going to bed, like I did before, maybe I’d be looser and it might delay the impact another couple of hours until I’m ready to get up, and then I can better address it emotionally.
At this point, I just need to do something to get some normal sleep. Even taking OTC painkillers before I go to bed doesn’t help.
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 07:02:14
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Yes, I agree with Sarno on that. Hell, I went through this other program before I learned about Sarno, which is based on "back pain being healed " (wink) with stretches. Yeah, I ended up in the hospital and out for three months, so it can be risky with someone with TMS.
I just wondered if he spoke against stretching period, while being a TMS sufferer. I think there's great benefit from stretching to alleviate the usual "stiffness" one gets(non TMS). |
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koukla
70 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 07:07:43
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| In Healing Back Pain he said that he was an advocate of exercise for general physical health, but I don't remember him saying anything about stretches. I would try the stretches out for awhile and see if your pain gets worse. |
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mamaboulet
181 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 07:17:47
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| I think Sarno's take on stretches is like his take on PT. If it serves to keep the focus on the physical (if I just stretch then that injury won't come back) instead of just being a normal part of life, then you should avoid it until you can treat it as a normal part of life. Stretching feels GOOD if it is done right. |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 07:34:06
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I remember when I had bad sciatica too, stretching made it feel a whole lot better, so naturally I went with it for a while. Placebo? I dunno about all that. It definitely did something. And thanks for the responses, but please understand that my stretching now is for normal range of motion improvement, not necessarily TMS.
You see, before I did Sarno I was into this website that approached back pain, sciatica from a purely muscular stance. They knew that the "spine" had nothing to do with it, and they taught that in their videos. So they were sort of half way to a TMS belief. I guess I'm just not convinced that stretching doesn't help TMS or pain symptoms. I've seen it help and Ive seen it make a spasm WAY worse. Regardless, it had an effect on something.
My thinking is this...if someone has pain, and due to that pain they sit more or move less...those muscles contract and get tighter over time. Which in turn may add to a spasm or oxygen deprivation. Right?
I'm no expert, but it only seems logical that tight muscles may be predisposed to hurt more?
But then I could end that argument by polling Yoga practitioners or swimmers or athletes who have chronic pain. So I guess I just debunked myself. Hmmm |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 07:37:28
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| Sorry to seem obsessed about this now. But I wish I had a definitive answer that stretching was either (A) Not beneficial or benign for treatment of pain or(B)part of the puzzle(C)Temp relief or placebo. I hate not knowing. Why more Doctors don't study TMS or "Myo" related disorders, I don't know. Guess there's not enough money in it. |
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chester
49 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 07:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by mamaboulet
I think Sarno's take on stretches is like his take on PT. If it serves to keep the focus on the physical (if I just stretch then that injury won't come back) instead of just being a normal part of life, then you should avoid it until you can treat it as a normal part of life. Stretching feels GOOD if it is done right.
That's why I've avoided the stretches - I don't want to sabotage my TMS efforts. But then again, if I had thought that the stretches I did in PT were curing me, I would never have looked into TMS.
I have another appointment with my TMS doc on Monday, so I'll hold off on the stretches for now and ask him then.
If anyone has any TMS-legit ideas about how I can get some serious sleep, I'm all ears (or eyes, blurry as they may be). |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 07:59:52
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| If you start a thread on your sleep problems I'll be happy to offer suggestions. I'm an "expert" in that area. I'd like to stay on the topic of stretching here though.Thanks. |
Edited by - la_kevin on 12/07/2007 08:02:28 |
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painintheneck
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 08:34:49
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la,
I'm sorry I don't recall what Sarno days about stretching in the books.
But.... I am a sufferer of neck and upper back pain for 10 years and I can say for sure that I have changed the way I hold myself and I have babied the neck and not given it as much movement as it should have which has caused physical changes. That is normal and with any muscles we do not work they will need to be worked and stretched again to reach full potential. I would think stretching a part of resuming normal activity. I intend to take up exercises I haven't in a long time and that does include working and stretching my muscles. I'm not as limber as I used to be either and that is one of the things I hope to get back again. Seems like part of resuming normal activity to me.
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 08:45:03
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Sarno is against stretches for 'healing injury', and neutral to negative on them for general health/good feeling. He claims that stretches don't really help anything, so why do them? However, I find that stretching feels good, so I do it if I feel like it. 'Feels good' is a good enough reason why for me.
And it's, I think, pretty much undeniable that regular stretching increases flexibility, and flexibility is part of overall fitness. I see it as, I'd like to be more aerobically fit than I would be from a desk job, and I'd also like to be more flexible than I would be from a desk job, even though I don't "need" to be.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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lidge
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 09:55:07
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| Sarno prescribes painkillers (not anti-inflammatories - PAIN KILLERS to those he knows to have TMS. Why I wonder? Well perhaps he knows that narcotics can help a person not feel the pain and therefore not focus on it. That is a big stumbling block for lots of us- we can't get the pain to a low enough level to deal with the psychological, go about normal routines etc. To the extent anything can do that, I wouldn't think it is sabotage. As long as you know that the relief is only temporary and that you have to address the psychological issues I honestly don't see the difference between stretching and taking pills. Anything that can cut the obsession with the pain I would imagine is beneficial. JMHO. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 10:36:48
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Hi all
I think this is a great thread, and I'm sorry I don't remember exactly what Sarno (literally) says about stretching in his books. But I am certain that he would advise to avoid it if there was any reinforcement or acknowledgment of the physical source of pain. In other words, a program of stretching to recover from an "injury" or "defect" is the wrong approach.
But I would also offer the alternative viewpoint which I am also confident he would not fault. I resumed my exercise about two months ago (you may remember me saying so in one of my previous posts). But the exercise routine is quite a bit modified from what I had previously been accustomed to. I go to the gym, work on an aerobic machine for 20-30min to get all warmed up. Then I stretch for almost 45min based on what I've learned from the various PT programs I've been through. Then after all the stretching I spend about 30min with some really wimpy weight lifting exercises (like 5-10 pound stuff). Sometimes I skip the weights if I don't feel like it would be fun or if it wouldn't feel good that day.
While one may argue that I'm not really working out, I certainly walk away from the gym glowing with this feeling like I'm doing something really great and useful, and frankly I feel like more of a normal human being when I'm not bunged up on the couch in pain. Psychologically this is the exact opposite of acknowledging the pain and/or injury. It reaffirms that I am not broken. It reaffirms that I am able to exercise, that I am healthy and normal.
So stretching, being easy, relaxing, and potentially healthful, really forms a key part of my "exercise" program. I don't know if it's helped me physically, but I know it has not hurt. And psychologically it is a huge benefit. After my 20-30min aerobic exercise I pop in the earplugs and find a corner of the gym to get into that relaxed stretching zen. I'm pretty sure Sarno would say it was a benefit for me to reinforce the idea that I am completely normal and in the gym working out to improve my physical fitness.
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playsinpain
28 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 12:45:40
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| Sarno is all about getting his people to move on with their lives and disregard any pain on the physical level...regarding it as nothing more than an alert that a pschological issue exists which the subconcious mind is trying to avoid. I can absolutely assure you that spending 45 minutes on stretches you got from your PT does not coexist with anything Sarno would recommend. |
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MAbbott
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 12:54:23
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If stretching makes you feel good I think you can do it. The problem arises, as I understand it, when you stretch because you think this will cure your problems. Or that if you don't stretch you are going to start suffering, etc. You don't need to add more rules to a physical regime - you need no rules. The idea is to enjoy life, be strong and happy without fear of hurting or injuring yourself.
Mabbott |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 19:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by playsinpain
.. I can absolutely assure you that spending 45 minutes on stretches you got from your PT does not coexist with anything Sarno would recommend.
I totally disagree. It is a well known fact that stretching is a beneficial part of any good exercise and fitness plan. And if fitness is part of getting along with ones life, then so be it. Recall the number one item on Dr Sopher's list of "Ten Commandments for Good Health"
quote:
1. Thou shalt exercise every day (or almost every day)."
So big deal if I learned a few exercise or stretching techniques from a good physical trainer or therapist along the way. It is not relevant, nor is it in conflict with TMS treatment as long as the activity is not an acknowledgement of or treatment for some physical "injury" or "disability" that has been properly diagnosed as TMS.
Seems to me stretching and strength training are good, especially if one has learned the proper way to do it from a good physical trainer or better yet a licensed therapist or physiatrist.
If Sarno recommends against stretching I'd be very interested to see where he says this, and more importantly why he says this. It seems very counter to any effort to refute physical disability caused by fear/pain and to return to normal (exercise) activity. |
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TraceyD
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 20:01:06
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| I believe that if you stretch to take care of your self as a human being then you are doing the stretching because you want to be healthy. I agree that it is totally a resuming "normal physical activity" action. If you are stretching to work through your pain, then I feel that is something different. I have just completed 13 sessions of PT which was pretty extensive, got my diagnosis of TMS from a DR in Mass. and was encouraged to do exercises that I like to do, like walking my dog, because I wasn't doing it to work on my back pain. I kind of feel that this is the same thing. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 20:33:56
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quote:
Originally posted by TraceyD
I believe that if you stretch to take care of your self as a human being then you are doing the stretching because you want to be healthy. I agree that it is totally a resuming "normal physical activity" action. If you are stretching to work through your pain, then I feel that is something different. I have just completed 13 sessions of PT which was pretty extensive, got my diagnosis of TMS from a DR in Mass. and was encouraged to do exercises that I like to do, like walking my dog, because I wasn't doing it to work on my back pain. I kind of feel that this is the same thing.
Yes, this is my point exactly! If you want to spend time stretching because it's a part of your normal activity, then you should do it. And then go for a run or lift weights, or walk your dog, or watch a movie. The point is to do what you love to do and refute the physical basis of TMS pain. And just as you need to watch for cars when you are out walking your dog, you also need to use proper stretching technique when you are stretching. Nothing wrong with learning that technique from a good PT.
But for la_kevin's question, what does Sarno say about this? I found the following in MBP, page 164
quote:
Many years ago I stopped prescribing physical therapy as part of the treatment program for TMS. Although the physical therapists were wonderful about emphasizing the psychological basis for the pain, each treatment session focused the patient's attention on his or her body, which was incompatible with my primary therapeutic goal of ignoring the physical and concentrating solely on the psychological. The same idea applies to any exercise routine designed to treat the back, whether it is in the form of stretching, strengthening or mobilizing. So I advise my patients to discontinue exercises designed to protect or otherwise help the back. The back needs no protection. Warm-up exercises prior to athletic activity are appropriate for better performance but specific exercises are otherwise unnecessary. Physical activity of all kinds is highly recommended for its pyschological and general health values.
I added the emphasis of course. From this I gather that as long as the stretching, or whatever, is not designed to treat or protect the body from the perceived physical injury or disability, or as long as it does not draw undue attention toward the body and away from the psychological work, then the activity is probably ok and probably even encouraged. |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 21:20:23
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AnthonEE, I agree with your responses and thanks for the Sarno quote. I agree with Sopher too. I don't think that they conflict. I looked at the real reason I was stretching my back, and I think deep down that it was to alleviate some pain I have in a trouble spot that is always tense. Well, I woke up after a long nap and it still hurt and stiff in the exact spot, then upon thinking about it, it moved to the other spot directly on the other side like a mirror. I think it's TMS. Sometimes I do these experiments to "debunk" my theories, and I think this one can be classified as busted.
I think stretching as a feel good/relaxation thing should be my focus. And if I feel any hint of "Oh if I do this my TMS will stay away", I'm going to switch the reasoning or remember the psychological.
This week I have been exercising like I would without any pain.For instance, when I used to go swimming, I kept these "floaty" things made of Styrofoam between my thighs so I didn't have to use my legs.(fear of injury) So this week I ditched the Styrofoam and have been kicking. Lo and behold, nothing felt worse and nothing got "injured". So my mind is thinking that the EXERCISE is what is holding my TMS at bay, when it could just be the fact that I've decided to challenge the pain. So I get confused on what is really doing it for me. I'm one of those TMS people that feel better the more active I am, and I know that it causes a weird paradox when I start to feel better. I want to attribute it to the physical workout, but I know it's a trap, because I can wake up with true TMS pain the next day, even after weeks or months of steady workouts.
I should just remember I'm swimming to sleep better, feel better, breathe better, and lose weight...NOT for TMS to "go away". It's a trap that is easy to get into.
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"It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment." Armchairlinguist(?) |
Edited by - la_kevin on 12/07/2007 21:21:31 |
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playsinpain
28 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 18:52:25
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AnthonEE,
you said yourself that the exercise routine is now greatly "modified" from before. I'm not saying stretching is a bad thing; neither does Sarno. But the point of the exercise is to understand that nothing is physically wrong with your back....if you were benching 250 lbs. before....go out and do it now. That's how I got better...after reading the book, I went back and started back to lifting after more than a year of walking and stretching ( I had convinced myself that this "modified" routine was a fine alternative ). The challenge from the book that really got to me was to go back to pre-pain limits and see if the pain would really be as bad as my imagination thought it would...of course it wasn't, and it eventually went away completely. I'll not bore you w/ some of the equivalents I've dealt with, but you get my point. Your post tells me you are using Sarno to TREAT your pain, not END it. |
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Stretching and TMS
