| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Logan
USA
203 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2007 : 18:30:24
|
Hey LA Kevin,
I too laughed at your head hanging by a thread analogy.
I don't know where TMS leaves off and EVERYTHING else starts. That's a big debate that none of us will be able to solve. I like though, that we can debate about it here. I'd say the fact that we can have this discussion, goes some distance in showing that we're not a cult.
I'm an ex-Mormon, believe me, if I felt it getting "culty" here I'd cut and run. : )
I did want to chime in about the electrical shock sensation.
That was the very last symptom that I'd developed before I read Sarno's work. That **** scared the hell out of me. Electric shocks??!! Zinging down my arms, like I'd bumped into an electric fence, like I'd done a time or two when I was a kid. There's nothing scarier than that sensation. I started thinking I had MS or God knows what.
But weirdly enough, as scary as the feeling was, the shocks were the first symptom I got rid of. I guess it might be different for you because you're asleep, but I noticed a direct and immediate correlation between "bad thoughts" and the ZING. I'd think something envious or mean spirited about someone else because I felt bad about me, and lo and behold, the shock would ZING! down my arms.
It was convinced me I really did have TMS and that I could beat it.
Maybe you might try going without the drugs and seeing if you can remember what you're dreaming when the shock wakes you.
I know that I still have "twinges" of neck discomfort when I'm sleeping and if I wake up feeling that, there's a stress dream I can recall if I try.
Whatever you decide to do, I wish you a speedy recovery. It sounds like you've got good help with your TMS therapist.
|
 |
|
|
Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 18:35:55
|
La-kelvin,
quote:
I don't think I was calling YOU a cultist specifically
All we cultists are just sitting back here waiting. By all rights, having 'cured' your electric shocks with antacids, you should be back on here in a couple of months with a new symptom!
Haha, not trying to wind you up but that is how it often happens.
On the other hand you have, hopefully, found a cure for a horribly painful problem so well done.
There was someone several months back who did turn out to have a serious disease which he had been treating as TMS but my memory is hopeless. Maybe someone else can put in a link.
Anne |
|
|
|
armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 22:11:22
|
It was jimmyjimmy, and he had vitamin D deficiency:
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2958
I think there are several factors at play here, actually. Some things are not TMS and that's just the plain truth. Appendicitis is not TMS. Parasites are not TMS. Meningitis is not TMS. Vitamin deficiencies are not TMS. Sometimes the symptoms of non-TMS things overlap with symptoms of TMS. Presumably this is why Sarno thinks people should be thoroughly checked out before going the TMS route. It seems Schechter failed to do this properly in jimmyjimmy's case, which is certainly worrying, and underscores the need to be checked out.
Some things are TMS, but have sufficiently serious physical effects that it might be worthwhile to stick with physical treatment for a while, or treat them physically as they come up (if they're episodic), until they are under more control. I'd put ulcers in this category, along with insomnia and the common cold. (Statistically speaking, ulcers are like herniated discs -- pretty much everyone who has them has the bacterium, but so do a lot of healthy people. Pretty much everyone who has back pain has herniated discs, but so do a lot of people who don't have any back pain. But behaviorally speaking they're more like illnesses.) I'm not going to skip taking decongestants and stuff for my cold just because I know I probably got it due to a weakened immune system from TMS. If you don't rest and treat your body right when it gets really overwhelmed, it's harder to bounce back. But I do apply TMS thinking if I feel a cold coming on, and to try to reduce its severity (which I can't prove works, but I feel like it does). Likewise, and even more so with ulcers, they can cause actual damage if you get too carried away with stopping treatment, and by the time you have an actual ulcer it's a little late to just make it go away by psychological thinking. But if you treat it and then do TMS work, it may go away faster and not come back as often/at all.
And some things are just TMS. And, TMS being endemic in the western world, and people who show up on this board being particularly self-selected by being people who think they MIGHT have TMS, it's not too surprising that most people who show up here get told by people on the board that they seem to have TMS. I don't recall anyone on the board ever issuing a definitive diagnosis, just giving a probability.
It is up to the people who visit to be intelligent and make sure they follow recommendations to read Sarno and be checked out by an MD.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
|
|
|
la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 23:25:42
|
Here I'll clarify my position.
Most new people that come on this board asking questions about certain ailments get the "sounds like TMS" response. Every time almost, like clockwork. If you want to deny this, go right on ahead, but I have almost a years worth of archives here to back me up.
Scottydog:
I never said I "cured" anything. I said they have stopped enough for me to sleep.
And I never said that you all were cultists. But some of the purists irk me, there's no denying that.
And the stuff about Shecter is interesting. Vitamin deficiency is an easy thing to miss though. Maybe I'll bring the story up to him. See what he feels about it. It's kind of hard talking to the guy though. He's like an energizer rabbit and doesn't really have a long attention span. Nice guy though.
|
|
|
|
la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 23:28:38
|
Here I'll clarify my position.
Most new people that come on this board asking questions about certain ailments get the "sounds like TMS" response. Every time almost, like clockwork. If you want to deny this, go right on ahead, but I have almost a years worth of archives here to back me up.
Scottydog:
I never said I "cured" anything. I said they have stopped enough for me to sleep.
And I never said that you all were cultists. But some of the purists irk me, there's no denying that.
And the stuff about Shecter is interesting. Vitamin deficiency is an easy thing to miss though. Maybe I'll bring the story up to him. See what he feels about it. It's kind of hard talking to the guy though. He's like an energizer rabbit and doesn't really have a long attention span. Nice guy though.
|
|
|
|
Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 01:11:21
|
quote:
Most new people that come on this board asking questions about certain ailments get the "sounds like TMS" response. Every time almost, like clockwork
Yes, this is very true.
I feel that many newbies are fishing for some confirmation of what are, for most people, pretty incredible realisations - they are causing their horrible illness to themselves. So when the usual responses are trotted out it is to help them accept this.
But I understand what you are saying and you have a point. I would have no problem with responses to newbies being more guarded. |
|
|
|
stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 02:41:49
|
Interesting post. I think it's too bad that we have managed to build intelligent computers and put people in space, but still havent even scratched the surface on the human mind. When i recovered from my first major round of TMS 10 yrs ago i thought it was an interesting subject, but it wasnt until 6 mo ago that i really started seeing just how powerful the mindbody relationship is.
Some have remarked something like "who cares if it's called TMS or something else". I think this is a mistake. Personally, id be visiting a board on 'psychosomatic medicine' if one existed, but for now i'll have to settle with the 'TMS' forum. For example, I now know that teenage acne i had had a much bigger psychological component than i ever knew. Was it the only component? Who knows. I do know i took heavy-duty antibiotics for years before wiping it out with Accutane. Now i know that those targeted bacteria were just like the bacteria in ulcers, the herniated discs, the deviated septum. All red herrings.
Several Years after my mother's first surgeries for colon Cancer, she started having strange coughs that only appeared at certain times. Knowing that she was prone to stress-related disorders as i had been, I insisted it was psychosomatic and she was fine, if she ignored it it would go away. When it eventually got bad enough that they X-rayed her and discovered the lung Cancer, i beat myself up because i figured i was in self-deluded-TMS-denial, and if only i hadn't been so foolish i would have insisted on a chest x-ray early on, perhaps saving her life.
And so i lived with that self-imposed guilt for several years, until now, when i realize the Cancer was not "TMS", but it most definitely based in the psychological, the stress that my mother was in do to marital and other situations. So, i was wrong to beat myself up, i just didn't see how broad the "TMS" definition encompassed. Don't make the same mistake, Kevin. |
|
|
|
Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 08:24:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by la_kevin
So guess what, I started taking Gaviscon before bed because it felt like the pain /jolts were coming from my chest, and lo and behold I have been sleeping like I did when I was younger. I can sleep on command now if I treat the acid. Does this mean it's not TMS? No, it definitely can be, but for now, why not take something to treat the HORRIFIC symptoms of feeling like I'm being choked and gasping for breath with something as simple as a chewable pill?
Absolutely! There is no problem with that at all. I have GERD and take medicine for it. It's one TMS symptom I have not conquered yet.
The point is, this is treating the symptom. Just like taking a painkiller, or valium, or Prozac. As long as you accept that there is no reason not to be comfortable while you continue to work on the underlying emotional cause. |
|
|
|
armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 08:41:14
|
I recently told Mando to go see the doctor about one of his symptoms because it DIDN'T sound like TMS.
But as I said, TMS is endemic (common) and thus most people are likely to have something that sounds like it. The people who think they have it and come here asking are particularly likely to actually have it, since they wouldn't come here asking unless they saw something in themselves that matched the possible symptoms or the psychological profile.
Also, a lot of things sound like TMS when they're described, whether they are or not. That's why people on the board give that response, because we really can't know more certainly than that. People have to be responsible and get checked out (and that is one of Sarno's recommendations that's repeated quite a bit, though perhaps not as much as it should be), but most people already have if they have anything resembling serious. I'd been through the whole mill by the time I got here.
So, I really can't buy into the idea that people are saying "Sounds like TMS" when it doesn't.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
|
|
|
la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 21:46:14
|
Agreed that TMS or Mind/Body relation can cause many things to go wrong. Cancer and degenerative illnesses can be made much worse with stress, anxiety, etc. I know about the whole effect of the mind /body. I'm not some "noob" here to the idea. In fact I have a very broad knowledge of the implications of stress on health.
However, I think that not all is TMS, that is my only point. It's not as if I'm "attacking TMS". Why would I be here if I thought TMS was some junk science theory? I wouldn't, but what if Dr. Sarno or Dr. Brady or Dr. Schecter themselves came on this board and told the people here that not everything is TMS? Would you lecture them about the implications of stress and anxiety and how TMS has broader implications?
Even they themselves teach that one MUST RULE OUT serious medical condition. Why do some people not acknowledge that part of their teaching? I think that it makes some people uncomfortable to realize that not everything can be answered with a TMS handbook. Some people fear the lack of control that a purely PHYSICAL illness presents. TMS is their way of controlling their perceived destiny of illness and pain ....now that they've discovered the theory.
I wonder what some would do if the had a Staph infection or kidney failure or heart disease. These can all present symptoms of TMS. We have to learn as a community to be SMART about the diagnosis. Chalking everything up to TMS now that we know about it can be foolish and dangerous. But as my therapist said "They are extremists in every community".
On a personal note. I went to the ER last night after a severe shock/jolt attack in my sleep. This was even after I took my trusted GAVISCON which I thought was the answer. Well, it wasn't.
I Left the ER after waiting 5 hours with no help and was exhausted. Came home and fell right asleep with no problem at all.Now all rationality about medicine and medical knowledge, I am beginning to think that this is an EXTREME and SEVERE presentation of a psychosomatic/ autonomic symptom. So severe that every doctor I have asked has never even heard of such a strange thing.
SO after more consideration, I believe my problem with the jolts is autonomic.But that still doesn't take away from what I wrote above. We still need to clarify whether something is truly TMS or physical. It just happens that my own symptoms are looking like TMS.
|
Edited by - la_kevin on 09/13/2007 21:49:29 |
|
|
|
Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 22:09:40
|
quote:
I wonder what some would do if the had a Staph infection or kidney failure or heart disease
My father was a pretty miserable and selfish individual and an alcoholic. My mother stuck by him anyway. He developed bowel cancer in his final years and would need alot of care. My mother developed renal failure, just out of the blue, at the same time - she was 80 years old.
I had recently moved back to the area so sorting out my father's care fell to me.
He died 18 months later.
My mother's kidney's started to function again about 6 months after this. Her renal surgeon said only 8 out of his 360 patients have spontaneously recovered and come off dialysis. I doubt if many of those were in their 80s.
Coincidence? |
|
|
|
la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 23:10:13
|
Lemme see Scotty.
It was all TMS right?
Is that the point?
BTW, sorry about the loss of your father. |
Edited by - la_kevin on 09/13/2007 23:26:40 |
|
|
|
mamaboulet
181 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2007 : 05:30:19
|
I don't think anybody here is attacking TMS or saying that EVERYTHING is TMS. And I think the message about being medically checked out is coming through loud and clear.
That said, when people present with weird symptoms that HAVE been checked out, this crowd is certainly going to lean toward TMS, because everybody here has been working on reprogramming the common response to pain and illness, that it MUST be physical, to think psychologically instead. Even when people here think, based on what the person says, that it might be TMS, they still all ask if the person has had it medically checked out before going the TMS route.
My impression, having only been here a few weeks, is that the people who have been working on TMS for a while, having already been through the endless cycles of doctors and multiple symptoms, tend to leap quickly through the doctor checkup part (you've been checked out, right? Nothing "wrong," right? Okay then...)and on to the TMS stuff. And seeing TMS behind every bush is kind of a natural response considering that collectively this group has seen just about every weird TMS symptom there is.
And the bickering here is pretty mellow compared to many places on the Internet. I figure it is because this is a fairly introspective group, being that you really HAVE to start getting to know yourself to take on TMS recovery. |
|
|
|
drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2007 : 11:54:19
|
La kevin--if this is you not being angry, I'd hate to see you when you were angry...
While you may be doing TMS work, if you are still going to the ED for the same symptoms that 8 MDs told you were stress-related, I'm guessing you haven't really bought into it yet. You can talk to a therapist until the cows come home, but if you don't believe that TMS is the problem that you have, than the techniques may not help.
In re: ulcers and H. pylori. The short answer is that yes, treating H. pylori in patients with ulcers helps heal them, though some require retreatment. However, about 20% of people under age 40 and 50% of people over age 60 are carriers of H. pylori, most of whom never develop ulcers. Therefore, there must be some additional factor contributing to ulcer formation, which is not currently known. This could be where TMS/stress comes into play.
Also, far more common than actual ulcers is reflux (GERD) or nonulcer dyspepsia, both of which have nothing to do with H. pylori, and which are likely (in my opinion) TMS equivalents. Your point about treatment is a good one--if you can take a pill that works well, why bother with using TMS techniques? I agree and I disagree. Practically speaking, you need to pick your battles. Many TMS symptoms are not easily treatable with medications (e.g. back pain), so treating the ones you can (e.g. GERD, carpal tunnel, allergies) is not unreasonable.
On the other side, however, you could argue that treating with medications may reinforce the idea that you are "sick" and need medication, and this may hinder improvement with other TMS symptoms (and there usually are other TMS symptoms besides GI ones). Next, some people do not want to be dependent on taking daily medications. Last, sometimes the meds stop working as well as they once did, and then what do you do.
You are right that some people here are TMS fascists, and feel that every single possible physical ailment has to be TMS. That is overstating the case, though I think that TMS is incredibly common, and likely represents over 50% of the patients I see as a neurologist. Naturally, you should consult with your doctor before making any medical decisions.
|
|
|
|
la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2007 : 15:42:47
|
Dr. Ziggles,
I am not angry at all, just worried about what newcomers might think. Why do you think I'm angry? Frustrated yes.
I understand that you're a neuro? Good, then I can tell you that many doctors have told me that this jolt " thing" I have is stress related, but my Neuro wants to do more tests because now my right eye socket is in pain all day and not tracking right, I feel unbalanced, and I have electricity going through my eyeballs. I am not opposed to the idea that this could be TMS, but this is a SERIOUS TMS equivalent if it is, and yes, I'm worried. WHy do you think that I spend $200.00 a week talking to a TMS therapist who says that I'm doing great at therapy, if I'm some "anti TMS" guy, lol.?
I'm a strong advocate of Mind/ Body medicine, did I give you the impression that I wasn't?
My symptoms are confusing to many doctors I agree. But my TMS work isn't improving this certain symptom. As a Doctor I would think that you would understand the panic that electric shocks and losing control of their head while it shakes violently in someones sleep would create.
But this whole idea of my being "angry" is not true, at least not at anyone on this board. But notice, I started a thread that went against the usual TMS norm, and most that responded thought it was an attack on TMS, it's kind of hard not to be defensive when you feel that you need to go with the Church of TMS Saints all the time.
And BTW... "8" docs didn't tell me it was stress. 3 told me it might be severe anxiety, 3 told me they have no clue, but it could be stress, and two told me that I need some tests done.
|
Edited by - la_kevin on 09/14/2007 15:49:31 |
|
|
|
Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2007 : 15:55:11
|
Kevin, you are right, frustration is probably a better term than anger, though you also seem quite defensive.
It is a common trap to say "the treatment isn't working so maybe it's not TMS." Unfortunately it's not like typical medical treatment. If you take an antibiotic and it doesn't work, then you know it was not a bacterial infection. There are so many factors that play a role in TMS recovery and the recipe is different for everybody.
One thing that is critical is to take a long-term view and not to lose "faith" for lack of a better term. There is no doubt that your symptoms are very serious and you are doing the right thing by seeking medical treatment. But since the doctors can't find anything, then either you have a condition that is exceedingly difficult to diagnose or it is TMS after all. Too bad Dr. House is just a fictional character ;)
It is very easy to give up when you don't get results. I'm not suggesting you have given up, however, if you can't put aside the doubt, it undermines the recovery process. Even if you have some doubt you can still commit to the treatment. That means doing whatever you can to ignore the symptoms and convince yourself that it is possible that the symptoms are psychogenic, and that despite the therapy, you have not yet even scratched the surface of the underlying emotional issues.
Bottom line, it is a bit of a cop out to say "TMS work isn't improving this symptom". The work is not like taking a pill. It is a life-long change in the way you think about and react to symptoms. For many, recovery takes a long time and a persistent effort. You must be totally honest with yourself and truly do the work and not just go through the motions. Don't put a timetable on your recovery. The symptoms will fade over time if you stay the course.
|
|
|
|
la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2007 : 16:02:39
|
Oh I agree, this is very difficult. If people knew what I've been through they would understand why I am scared of this certain symptom. Seriously, after these attacks happen my speech is slurred, my words don't come out right, my brain feels like it's "locked", it hurts too like a car battery on my neck.
All this happens when I fall asleep feeling totally relaxed ( as I perceive) and "stress free". I would have no problem if GOD or someone came down and told me it was TMS. I would say "well...it figures". But I feel like I am physically really sick.
Now I have been diagnosed with severe TMS, that's a fact. So it would be no surprise if it is, but I am REALLY not having fun with these new symptoms. Pain I can deal with, muscle tightness I can deal with, but not this one. This is freaking me out, and that itself isn't helping me, I know. It's just really hard to think psychologically about something that is the equivalent of CIA torture in your sleep. |
|
|
|
whitris
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2007 : 08:46:12
|
Wow, you guys really can talk up a storm.
I just wanted to say as a ulcer / GERD veteran, I think the h. pylori discovery was one of the initially best and in hindsight worst things that could have happened. Yes, it turned the treatment world on its head at first and challenged lots of GI docs. But it later made things worse as the "stress" cause of ulcers got dismissed even more strongly. Many ulcers folks have traded their ulcers for GERD and possible esoph. cancer. The next frontier is the "gene for this ailment", "gene for that ailment" approach that is getting big money now. Lord knows how the body will fight back when gene therapy is the norm.
BTW, today I use Sarno and no drugs to treat my GI issues. Works fine for me.
On a side note, did the forum ever discuss Laura Bush's recent surgery for neck pain? |
|
|
|
JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2007 : 10:18:00
|
It seems that Dave has been working on the GERD symptom for a while now.....which brings up a good point. Some people have symptoms that are easier and some that are harder to beat. Basic tms theory often helps people get rid of a few to most of their symptoms. But if TMS theory were the end/all be all then people would be able to get rid of all of their symptoms, not be on any meds etc...within a reasonable time such as a year or 2 depending on the person. Dave who is a well respected poster on this board and people often come to him for advice still hasn't been able to get rid of GERD after a few years of applying Sarno's theories. What if the equivalent of GERD for him was intense back pain for someone else? or anxiety that prevented them from having a normal social life? or some other ailment that caused them to be on a medicine that is potentially harmful/and or addictive (which most FDA approved meds fit the bill for in one way or another)
I think all the people who think they are an authority on TMS should double check whats going on with their own symptoms and their own life before they make end all claims about what someone else needs to do to get well. Until one is able to get rid of all symptoms, and I mean all symptoms....like everything on the equivalent list.....they should practice some humility and compassion when giving newbies/others advice. In order to get rid of all symptoms, more is often needed than just basic TMS theory (which is a great starting point), and it takes much more than most people can comprehend.....which in turn leads to a great deal of humility and respect when talking to others who are taking on this mindbody challenge.
Oh and one last thing, if more than TMS theory is not needed for the person to be completely symptom free than usually you are dealing with a very well developed person, but most in our society don't fit that bill |
|
|
|
Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2007 : 10:46:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by JohnD
Until one is able to get rid of all symptoms, and I mean all symptoms....like everything on the equivalent list.....
IMO this is an unrealistic goal and if one has such lofty expectations it could lead to frustration and hinder recovery.
Even Dr. Sarno admits he has psychogenic symptoms from time to time. This is a normal part of being human.
In my opinion it is more important to accept that some symptoms are psychogenic and, even if you cannot banish them completely, eliminate their ability to induce fear and serve as a distraction.
In my opinion if one gets a flare-up of lower back pain from time to time, it doesn't mean one has failed in their efforts to treat TMS, so long as the pain is accepted as a benign psychogenic symptom -- perhaps a signal that we are repressing something. If the pain is successfully ignored and fades relatively quickly, then the battle is won. We are human beings, we lead stressful lives, we all repress emotions, and our bodies will produce symptoms. Recovery from TMS is largely about learning how to react to those symptoms if and when they occur.
Finally, anyone who solicits 'advice' on this forum should understand that every post represents somebody's personal opinion and in no way represents medical advice. I never claim to be an authority or expert on this topic. I simply share what I have learned from Dr. Sarno and my own experience. By far the most important thing anyone must do before embarking on TMS treatment is to see a medical professional and rule out serious disease or structural issues. This cannot be stressed enough.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Ulcers as TMS? Why I Think That Is Wrong
Topic Locked
