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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
 Posted - 06/10/2004 : 05:35:52
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I have been looking at myself in the mirror recently and have made the following observations about my body:
1. My face is tilted to the right
2. My right shoulder is significantly lower than my left one
3. My 2 collar bones are not symmetrical as a result of the drop in the right shoulder
4. Whenever I look at my shirt it always hangs significantly lower on my right.
My pain is mostly on the right side. I know that since I started the having pain nearly 4 years ago that I have held a lot of tension in various parts of my body that are now chronically stiff and painful. In fact I am completely unable to relax my lower back, upper back, shoulder, chest and thigh muscles. Could someone please comment.
Thanks and good health to all.
mala |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 08:36:44
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Since the bones only go where the muscles pull them, the asymmetry is almost certainly directly related to the constant tension you feel in your muscles.
As you may recall from my previous posts, many years ago I related the terrible lower back pain I was having after sitting in soft-bottom chairs to an unconscious habit of pulling up my butt with my back muscles, holding them in a tight rictus until they went into spasm.
A couple of years ago, it was pointed out to me that I was holding my pelvis stiffly all the time. This related to unconscious habits of constantly flexing and holding tight my ab muscles, as well as the muscles around my hip bones. I had to learn a new way to sit, stand and walk.
The key to releasing those muscles is developing consciousness of what you are doing, practicing consciously relaxing as much as possible, and gently but regularly moving the tight muscles through a range of motion, i.e., gentle daily exercises.
The book for this is Pete Egoscue's "Pain Free" which I have recommended here before. About ten bucks from Amazon.
I had already made some great strides over the last couple of years learning to sit, stand and walk in a more relaxed and balanced manner. But Egoscue's book really hit a lot of nails right on the head for me. It addresses directly the exact things you are talking about in this post.
I read the book and started doing the little 20-minute daily set of exercises he recommends, plus a couple of others that relate to some specifics. The results for me, on my butt and hamstrings, have been stunning, although, as they say, your results may vary.
By the way, yes, I imagine that TMS plays a role in your pain, as it dones in mine, and should be treated for, along with anything else you do.
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 08:53:58
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My left shoulder is lower than my right. So what?
I've been told by PTs and Chiropractors that my pelvis is shifted, so my left leg is "longer" than my right and that's what causes my low back pain. Yeah, right.
I think it is certainly possible for people to unknowingly hold their muscles tense. Personally I believe it may be tension related. Sometimes while I'm working I become aware that I'm holding my shoulders tense and I consciously relax them. Why was I holding them tense in the first place? I believe emotional stress plays a part.
You are still focused on the pain. You are thinking of where the pain is, and connecting it to your "out of alignment" body. You have not reached the first step of treating TMS. Perhaps you are not ready. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 09:27:12
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Mala,
Your post deals entirely with the physical. I agree with Dave, perhaps your not ready yet to deal with TMS. TMS is about the mind and how it effects the body. It is founded on Freudian psychology.
No where in your post do you mention emotional issues. In the past you mentioned that your husband does not like to engage in discussions or argument and that you are open to engagment. Has that changed? Are you still reading Sarno? He says, whem you feel physical symptoms, you should shift your thinking to the emotional and try to discover what emotional issues are triggering the physical sypmtoms.
What is going on emotionaly in your life???--or is that too personal to discuss on this board for you? |
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shelliebill
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 14:23:23
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Mala, Wow, if I looked at myself that hard in the mirror, I'd be pretty depressed
I agree with the rest that your focus is way too much on the physical. I also feel that NO ONE is symetrical. We are all higher, lower, etc from eyebrows to ankles in my opinion (I'm sure that little adventure called the birth canal gets things off to a great start). Ask anyone who has ever tailored clothing and I'm sure they will confirm the painless physical abnormalities of everyone they deal with.
Your mention of chronic muscle tension made me wonder if a simple exercise in meditation might be helpful to you. It sounds like your body has 'forgotten' how to relax. Setting a time to sit quietly and clear your mind may be a twofold bonus. Reminding your body what it feels like to relax and to also let your mind clear and give you an emotional insight into the personal issues you may be avoiding.
Taking the time to figure out to break my bad muscle habits along with the TMS mind work was the combination that really put me on the road to success.
Wishing you well. |
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goodguy
26 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 14:37:47
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I can only tell you my personal experience:
When my pain first started, I had never heard of TMS. My first stop was the chiropractor. He took x-rays and showed me all the mis-alignments in my body (clearly visible and obvious). After two months of almost daily treatments, he took new x-rays. The improvement was dramatic! I looked like the poster he had hanging in his office!
Only one problem, my pain had only gotten worse. I stopped seeing him and eventually found out about Sarno. It has been two months since I saw Sarno and my pain is starting to improve (because I have willed it to improve). |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 20:49:13
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Thank you all for your posts. I realise that my post concentrates on the physical but that does not mean that I am not thinking psychologically or emotionally. In fact, I have been seeing a psychotherapist for the last month to deal with some of the issues in my life.
In my opinion, the body is just as important as the mind. Hence the word mindbody could also be bodymind. If people believe that the mind can affect the body, then they have to believe that the body also affects the mind. That's why I agree with Austingary completely when he says that holding certain muscles in the body in a rictus can perpetuate even more pain. This however, does not in anyway mean that emotions are not important.
Sarno says that emotions cause real pain and real physical symptoms. Tension in the muscles is the most obvious physical symptom. This causes much discomfort and many people like myself get even more anxious and tense which makes the muscles even tighter and more painful. The fear sets in. Anxiety sets in and the pain escalates. Now, I have forgotten how to relax my body.
Looking after the body is as important as looking after the mind. Sarno has done great work but there are still a lot of things we don't know. Some people get permanent relief simply through physical therapy, others through dealing with their emotions and then are some who may need to deal with both body and mind to get relief.
We are all on a learning curve here . When I was in India at an ayurvedic clinic there was a quote I read on one of the walls in the treatment rooms. Its by Swami Vivekananda "A healthy mind can exist only in a healthy body "
Good Luck and Good health to all.
mala |
Edited by - mala on 06/11/2004 00:15:26 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 07:19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by mala
In my opinion, the body is just as important as the mind.
Yes, pain has many origins. But when you started this topic your focus was on structural issues.
You can do all the emotional work you want, but if you still believe that pain might be caused by asymmetrical collar bones, or dropped shoulder, then you're on the wrong track.
Gary may be right, but in my personal experience (and in the opinion of Dr. Sarno) it is detrimental to think this way when you are in the early stages of fighting TMS. It leave TMS an opening in your mind, and it will sieze that opportunity. You find yourself wondering, "Is this back soreness due to repressed emotion? Or it is due to the fact that I sit improperly and pull up my pelvic muscles?" As far as TMS is concerned, if you believe at all in the latter, then it has succeeded at its mission. The pain will continue, because you believe it might be physical.
In my opinion it's essesntial to tackle the psychogenic pain, without focusing on anything physical, at least until you get to the point where your belief in TMS is strong and you have achieved significant relief. Otherwise, you'll just be in an infinite loop of symptoms. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 09:26:58
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Gary may be right, but in my personal experience (and in the opinion of Dr. Sarno) it is detrimental to think this way when you are in the early stages of fighting TMS.
Dave is not one of the space cadets here, but rather a rational person and his is a perfectly rational answer IF the problem is all or almost all TMS and not related to how you are using your muscles. (I would call that "physical" but not "structural", which is more like bones out of place.) But, in my opinion, while TMS is an important contributor to body pain, so is how we use and/or abuse our bodies in the environment we live in and this must also be taken into consideration if we want long-term health.
Dr. Sarno in his books makes it sound as though almost all body pain originates "in your mind" and the cure is also pretty much "in your mind". This is happy news (and, yes, good for book sales & new patients!) for those looking for a one-step, easy solution but I suspect it is only true for a few people with serious emotional issues, conscious or unconscious.
I believe that TMS is more likely to be one cause of pain but not the only cause of pain -- and that relief from pain over a long period of time probably requires a lot of unpleasant HABIT CHANGING. (But not surgery or medical intervention as a "structural" problem would.)
I have pointed out before how some want to look at TMS Theory almost like a religion. I ran onto this quote, which seemed appropo:
"Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think."
-- Schopenhauer
But if you conclude that the key to pain relief is to religiously believe (via thought control) in certain Sarnoesque Truths exactly as he wrote them down, and you think that you can actually consciously choose what to believe, then, if that is not working for one reason or another, why not choose to believe that you can effectively do the anti-TMS work along with other work on the way you use your body? On changing your physical habits? On your diet? Or exercise?
Well, I think the answer to that is that one way is "just think it and it's yours" while the other requires a lot of habit-changing and work, over a long period of time. People don't want to do that. We are searching for the Holy Grail. The words carved on the side of it are: "Something for Nothing". |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 09:38:07
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quote:
Originally posted by austingary
...why not choose to believe that you can effectively do the anti-TMS work along with other work on the way you use your body?
I don't think you can choose, because TMS is an unconscious process over which we do not have direct control.
This is why I believe that if we consciously think about physical causes of pain, those beliefs get pushed into our unconscious and give TMS an opportunity to grab our attention.
Yes, it is absoluely likely that our muscle pains come from different sources. It is entirely possible that part of our pain comes from the way we sit or walk, or the fact that we are out of shape, or eat the wrong foods. Maybe strong-minded people can have success taking multiple approaches to treating the pain, as you have done. But I do not believe that everyone can do this.
I truly believe that thinking physical in any way, during the early stages of the process while you are trying to drive the TMS concept into your unconscious, will slow recovery from psychogenic pain. This is based on my own personal experience and Dr. Sarno's experience with thousands. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 10:02:00
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I truly believe that thinking physical in any way, during the early stages of the process while you are trying to drive the TMS concept into your unconscious, will slow recovery from psychogenic pain. This is based on my own personal experience and Dr. Sarno's experience with thousands.
Agreed, this would be the recipe for recovery for someone whose pain was primarily or totally TMS. But it would also be the recipe for a really good placebo effect. |
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EileenTM
92 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 15:33:29
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| I am interested in how the Egoscue exercises work for you. I bought the book "Pain Free", but put it on the shelf to devote my complete energies to Sarno and Soper books. Most of my symptoms are now gone except for tinnitus and some occasional sciatic pain. So now I am thinking about doing those Egoscue exercises as part of my fitness program. I play tennis and golf and do weights (to prevent osteoporosis). I also do some light yoga. The Egoscue exercises are very similar to yoga. So what kind of results have you had? Which menu do you do and how often? Of course I am not looking for this to relieve pain. I already accept completely the TMS theory. I have seen it work for myself, my husband and my father. I am just interested in it for fitness. |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 19:43:24
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IMO The body aspect of the mindbody connection is as important as the mind aspect. The way we use and treat our body physically has a great impact on our mind which again affects the body. It is sometimes hard to know whether the initial problem is physical or emotional. A bit like which came first, the chicken or the egg.
We all have issues and those issues as well as various emotions have been with us since our childhood . In fact you could say that a lot of emotions are stored physaically in our bodies. When our bodies are strong, we are able to cope better with these issues. When our bodies are not strong enough , we are less likely to be able to cope emotionally too and the emotions overwhelm us and this leads to more physical problems.
Even people who do the Sarno work do it differently and it can be pretty confusing. Some just ignore the pain and plough on, others 'will it' to go away
while others think about emotional issues. Some people need to be able to pinpoint what exactly is bothering them while others get relief by just acknowledging they have issues. Some will get relief by doing both physical and mental work. Because we are so different and we all process information and emotions and treat our bodies differently, the way we find relief will be different too. Again, I believe very strongly that emotions and feelings do play a very important role but I think the body needs attention too.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 23:16:04
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The Egoscue exercises are very similar to yoga. So what kind of results have you had?
Excellent, so far. I read through the book, then started doing the set of daily exercises Egoscue recommends at the end of the book, adding a gentle 1-minute hamstring stretch using a belt, since I have had such tight hamstrings. I do those every morning. They take about 20 minutes. I think I've been doing them for about a month, now. I do them very gently, nothing like what I used to think of as stretching.
Within two weeks, the hamstring pain and tightness that had plagued me while running was gone. My pelvic and hip area is now noticeably more flexible which translates into a more fluid, fuller hip movement while walking and running. I have much less soreness around my hip bones. And my neck will turn a little farther to each side.
For me, it is not that I have tossed TMS theory over the side and signed up with a new religion. But every problem is not TMS. For example, about 6 weeks ago I slammed my right index finger knuckle into a board in our garden. Pain and swelling. That was not TMS.
But after a month, it was still somewhat swollen and prone to hurt after any significant exertion using that finger. Had it X-rayed: no break, no sign of anything untoward.
So, now -- I am thinking TMS, and I have started using the anti-TMS methods against it. When it hurts, I turn my mind to my emotions and expect that I will get relief because that has been my experience. And there is evidence that I may be getting somewhere. That's my way of including TMS into the Big Picture. |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 12:13:11
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| I think there some of here who are still focused too much on the way we sit, blah blablah. This is the TMS help board. Sarno created the TMS theory not the theory of sitting. We need to focus on Sarno's work. People come in here to to get with Sarno's research. It has slowed my progress down to come in here sometimes because some of us seem to be focused on structural aspects. Let's focus on the unconsciouss please. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 18:22:35
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I think there some of here who are still focused too much on the way we sit, blah blablah. This is the TMS help board.
You're late to the party, friend. When I started this board two years ago, it was open to all topics related to TMS and, under Dave's ownership, as far as I know, it still is. If you don't like the subject matter, start your own board. If you don't like my posts or those of any others, don't read them. But what you choose to read is your responsibility. The subject matter of the TMS Board is not. |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 20:02:34
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'It has slowed my progress down to come in here sometimes because some of us seem to be focused on structural aspects.'
2scoops, it seems to me like something else may be slowing down your progress. If you feel that your progress is being slowed down by reading the posts here then perhaps you should'nt read them or choose which ones you read very carefully. Perhaps sticking to Sarno's books or videos may be more suitable in your case.
We are all on a learning curve here. Most if not all who post here ARE trying to find relief from pain through the tms approach. Although Sarno's books and videos cover a lot of ground , there are still aspects and areas that need to be addressed. Questions arise when individuals read or think about tms with reference to their pain and they should be allowed to express what or how they feel and think. Remember, a lot of us live too far away to even find a tms doctor so this forum is crucial in helping us to understand more about it through other people's experiences and experiences do differ. The mindbody approach is by far the most sensible approach to resolving pain that I have come across but 'minds' do differ. It would be simplistic to say that only one approach would work for everyone.
It would be dangerous to restrict this forum. People should be allowed to express their thoughts and write about their experiences in a polite, helpful and encouraging way.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 20:39:52
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2scoops, it seems to me like something else may be slowing down your progress.
No doubt. And this is something for each of us to consider: Are we assigning responsibility for our progress to others? In the beginning, middle and end, the entire responsibility is our own. If we hurt, we do so because of how we react to the world around us. No one else, unless they beat us, can make us hurt. No one else can cure us.
One of the valuable side topics we have discussed here are The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. Marcus' watchword, as given to him by the Oracle, was simple: "It's up to you!" |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 22:34:06
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| All I am saying is I think we would recover faster if we do Sarno's work. I am only trying to help. I think if Sarno visited this site he would tell us to look to at our unconsciuos for the answers. If we are unable to let go of the structural aspects like is my one leg shorter than the other, than we will not be able to heal this pain. Sarno's research has healed many. I have hope because of him. I got my life back, which is priceless. Now that I am able to say there is nothing wrong with my back or spine alignment I can live a normal life. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2004 : 07:58:35
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I think if Sarno visited this site he would tell us to look to at our unconsciuos for the answers.
Sure, I think if Sarno visited this site he would tell us to look there for the solution to everything, because that's what he does. That's his business, and he's done very well with it.
To whatever extent he's right or wrong, it's still his business and you should never completely trust someone when they're making money (books and patients, in John Sarno's case) off their advice.
Actually, you should never completely trust any advice without question just because humans are fallible.
But whatever Sarno said to or about us, it's would not be of great consequence, because this site is not an homage to John Sarno or his ideas. Here, all ideas, including Sarno's, have always been up for discussion and argument. Personally, I hope that will never change.
Over the past week, we have seen with what over-the-top fervor a large percentage of Americans apparently long for a king, rather than a chief executive, as head of our government. I could not be happier that this week-long orgy of royalty-worship and fake grief over someone who was already dead, for all practical purposes, is over.
I bring that up in order to compare it with those who would like to turn this site into royalty-worship: install John Sarno as High Priest in the Church of TMS so they can slaver over him and his ideas.
In the long run, this kind of religious orientation to the anti-TMS work will not serve you, because it takes your attention away from the hard and cold fact that the total responsibility for your health, your fitness, your well-being, and living a life as free of pain as possible rests on you. It's your responsibility.
If you get good ideas from John Sarno, great. But you better just take them as more ammo for your battle, because it is your battle and no one else is there in the foxhole with you. Not John Sarno, not anyone. Your recovery is your responsibility. Own it. |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2004 : 14:13:02
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"If you get good ideas from John Sarno, great. But you better just take them as more ammo for your battle, because it is your battle and no one else is there in the foxhole with you. Not John Sarno, not anyone. Your recovery is your responsibility. Own it."
You are right gary, this is my battle no one else'e. But this is not my battle against spine abnormalities, but it is a chance for me to look deeper into myself and my emotions. Sarno has don more for me than any other doctor and guess what he did not make a cent off of me. |
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posture and body alignment
